Tom D:
You can believe or not believe whoever you wish. I have not played The Idaho Club so I will not comment there. I have played a number of extremely hard courses from a wide variety of different architects over the years and for those to believe Red Ledges is borderline unfair or a desire by Jack to simply throw all the obstacles at-will needs to play places like The Ocean Course at Kiawah or others of this type to see when things truly go above the boundaries of relative fairness.
Nicklaus gets dissed often on this site because of who he is and the approach he has taken on designs. I have commented previously that early Nicklaus has changed his approach to courses and you see more variety -- less formulaic greens -- more interesting land movements with holes shaped in partnership with the land -- and not standing grossly apart from such topography. To listen to Jack now when he expounds about his design philosophy I see a person who genuinely wants to make playability a functionality of his designs. Provided -- that such players play his courses with their own limitations firmly in place - that means the proper tees when held against their handicap level.
When I say playable -- for Red Ledges -- for the 9-handicap types -- it depends upon the nature of the game that such a 9-handicap has. Some 9-handicaps will have an easier time than others because of the wherewithal to carry shots / distance they earn, etc, etc. I am not suggesting any 9-handicap types would easily match their scores from such tees when held against member tees. But that's nodifferent than if the same type of player(s) played PV from tips and regular tee boxes.
In regards to your last question -- I am going to spend some time so I can post a few key courses that are not double-diamond difficult types but offer a much more elastic approach. I should have a few answers shortly on that front.
Joel:
A few comments on your latest post -- I too liked Victory Ranch -- in spots. The land is brutally severe and as a result you get massive UP and DOWNHILL holes. The quality of the land at Red Ledges is night and day beyond what you have at Victory Ranch in my mind. In addition, Rees Jones has unfortunately applied his hop scotch creation of tee pads -- some have as many as 5 which are square shaped and stick out like a sore thumb. Counter that to Red Ledges and you can see how skillfully Team Nicklaus placed tee markers and tried to have them blend in rather than STANDOUT as seen at Victory Ranch.
To Rees Jones credit the back nine at Victory Ranch is what saves the day there. I played it with a 20-25 mph wind out of the west and the course adds even more demands with the hay-like rough that you forgot to mention. Miss a fairway at Victory Ranch and it's a donation in most cases. No doubt Red Ledges doesn't give away free passes -- but you can play errant balls in a number of instances when compared to Victory Ranch.
I really enjoyed the final three holes at Victory Ranch -- they are some of the best I have played from the layouts of Rees Jones that I have played.
When you speak about Red Ledges and its difficulty -- the issue is really what tees people play and what handicap level they have for their respective game. Candidly, I get tired of the 19th hole grousing from those who bitch and moan about a course's difficulty when they really should have played from a more forward tee position in order to provide a more level playing field for themselves. I am not saying you are like this -- so don't misunderstand me -- but far too often players will throw a respective course under the bus because it's e-z to blame their shortcomings on the course rather than their desire to bite off more than they can reasonably chew.
Joel,. the member tees of 6,800 yards are effectively much shorter at Red Ledges. In addition, the playing angles and width of the landing areas from those tee markers makes the opportunities to score from those tees much more fairer than you mentioned initially in your comments in my mind.
I too share your love for Glenwild -- one of TF's best layouts and one that is simply overlooked by so many people. No doubt few people figure UT as being worth their time to play quality golf. That is their loss.
On the Painted Valley front -- I can understand your comments on the demand meter -- in fact, Painted Valley demonstrates my case on how grand Red Ledges is when held together. Red Ledges has spectacular land, a first rate routing and a truly marvelous combination of holes. In my mind, Red Ledges will elevate UT golf in much the same manner as Rock Creek did for Montana and for what Ballyneal has done for Colorado.
David:
Let me try again to see if I can break through the self-created misunderstandings you have on this topic thus far.
I understand the distinction clearly between CR (which is geared towards the scratch player) and that of slope (which is added to the mixture to deal with the relative difficulty of a course for players who are not scratch golfers).
David, it's not uncommon for states with a growing golf course population to often overstate the nature of a few courses -- especially those designed by big name players in the field. When Nicklaus opened Geronimo at Desert Mountain (Scottsdale, AZ) the CR amd SL were off the charts. Within a few years -- the same course was adjusted accordingly DOWNWARD on both fronts. This has happened numerous times and I'll be more than happy to state such instances specifically.
UT doesn't have a solid and deep roster of top tier layouts -- especially when held against national standards of note. Too often those entrusted with such a process only have lower tier courses to use as a basis and often times when that happens there can be an overeaction when such numbers are applied. My comments - which you once again missed -- is that given the range of courses I have played across the USA I have had the advantage in playing bonafide high CR and slope layouts in a number of instances. When I see Red Ledges rated with a higher CR and SL than Bethpage Black something is indeed amiss. Candidly, in the metro NYC area I firmly believe that the top tier courses -- not all mind you -- show be rated even higher on both accounts than they are now.
When you say you"ll go by "their opinion" - again, try to realize that many of these same people are applying such numbers in a limited vacuum and as a result it's very likely they will skew higher than what is indeed accurate.
David, the CR from member tees at Red Ledges is likely more accurate than what the slope says. Let me help you out OK -- I have played the course -- you have not. You are making left field comments on the nature of the course when I have actually played it and seen others do likewise -- from both markers.
I have to wonder if it's in your DNA to simply argue over and over again and not see fit to admit that maybe, just maybe, Ward has a point which you have stubbornly refused to acknowledge.
Red Ledges at 6,800 yards is far from that effective yardage given the altitude locally. You also have wider landing areas and more accessible playing angles to the greens from those tees -- to believe that at member's tees -- which are 800+ yards shorter is only four points lower in slope is nonsense. Both the slope and CR should be lowered accordingly. Let me also point out another relatively new course that is nearby in CO -- Greg Norman's Cornerstone in the greater Montrose area. Here you have a course that is LONGER than Red Ledges and it actually sports a lower CR and slope from both the tips and member tees. I can honestly say that Cornerstone which has a 142 slope from the tips -- is not some sort pf pushover layout when held against Red Ledges. To think that Red Ledges is 11 points higher makes no sense to me.
On the member tee front Cornerstone weighs in at 73.5 / 138 and again plays longer from those markers (7,227) than what you see at Red Ledges. Before you leap to type what about the length at Cornerstone -- can member tees really be 7,227 yards? Yes, when you begin to understand that Cornerstone is at 9,000 foot elevation and can impact distances of 8-10%.
My point on highlighting Red Ledges to Cornerstone is to show how CO applies the numbers in a much more reasonable and fairer fashion.
David, I always chuckle at your inclusoin of the "duffer" into the equation. I love your incessant self-righteous appeal to the Joe Sixpacks of the golfing world. Might it be too much to ask for a defintion of the term duffer? I mean are we talking about players who routinely hit grounds balls -- play military golf (e.g. left/right/left) at-will. If so, then these folks need more time on the practice tee than any course of quality -- beyond the likes of Red Ledges.
Let me point out another error on your part -- different golfers can vary greatly in terms of their overall golf game skills even if they have the same handicap. What I meant about the single digit player being able to play Bethpage Black (those at 9 or better) is that you can have players who can hit the ball a long ways and not be impacted to the same degree as those who hit the ball shorter but can score better when they get nearer to the green(s). I am not saying that all nine handicap players can play Bethpage Black but it would be inane to suggest that only those who are extremely low handicap types can play the tips is also not accurate either.
Last point -- Red Ledges uses the bold topography to strike fear in the minds of players when playing there. It is spectacular and it's very e-z for people to be intimidated by such mental interference caused by the architect. There are a number of more demanding courses I can name than Red Ledges and some of those are not so kind to the "duffer" you champion. Try Pine Valley for size -- or Oakmont -- or Oakland Hillls / South, etc, etc, etc.
Andy:
A quick response -- Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV is harder than Painted Valley and Red Ledges. In fact, Red Ledges is a great case point to show how playability is more possible there than at Painted Valley -- the exact opposite of what Joel believes. Interesting.
Jim:
You are right -- if the 149 number was accurate than your presumption would be true. The slope from the members tee at Red Ledges is far less than what is stated now in my mind for the reasons I have already mentioned and repeated to a few others before and now.