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Paul_Turner

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Wentworth West Redesign
« on: August 22, 2009, 02:06:05 PM »
Wentworth West is going through a major redesign by Els's crew.  USGAing all the greens and redoing all the greenside bunkers.  Some of the greens are getting expanded for more pin positions, I'm not sure if they are going back to the original 1920s sizes or if they're redesigning for the pros.

There's also some more major changes,  a stream being added to 18th, the hollow to the right of the 17th being made much deeper and the 3rd (which had been altered before) and 12th greens being totally recontoured.

Most of the redone greenside bunkers are now much more elaborate, see the one of the 7th below. I'm trying to work out where they have come up with the "Colt" style...perhaps from the old pics of Prestbury but with less of a sand face?  Or did Wentworth once look like this?   The few 1930s pics I've seen (mostly of the East) suggest not.


Redone 7th at Wentworth

7th at Prestbury.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 02:11:20 PM by Paul_Turner »
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Scott Macpherson

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2009, 04:40:49 PM »
Hi Paul,

As you know, many of the Colt features on the West course at Wentworth were lost years ago. And as I understand it, none of the changes being done now are being done to bring any of them back. This is just a full redesign, not a Colt restoration.

Let's see how it turns out.

scott


Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2009, 08:46:13 PM »
Hi Scott

You may well be correct. But I'm hoping they lasered the majority of the greens and copied them over when building to USGA. The tier on th 7th at least looks about the same.

Els has been given more and more leeway to change the course over the last few years and I think they may end up redoing a lot of the work he initially did with fairway bunkers.

Not sure how much sway the members have and all the changes started with new corporate ownership.

I think the club actually has very little knowledge regarding the course and its evolution. Particularly if the club history is anything to go by. And the press announcements of staying true to Colts "spirit" come across as just lip service to appease criticism.
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Alister Matheson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2009, 06:12:43 AM »
The newly reconstructed 7th green looks to be a bit bigger to me from the pic it stretches further to the right than the previous green.
Im looking forward to seeing them all done and  if they are trying to restore / duplicate some off colts design traits this if done properly will be brilliant when married with the firmer surfaces the rebuild will provide.     :)
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Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2009, 08:36:26 AM »
Paul, Ernie Els has written about this on his website a few times. I think the last time was about 10 weeks ago - though i suspect you may not get more enlightenment than found in the press releases you refer to!

Paul_Turner

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2009, 01:19:10 PM »
An update here. With a seal of approval from Gary Player.

http://www.wentworthclub.com/golf/3181/


The best bit is:

"There was some debate during the initial design consultations as to whether we should introduce bunkering on the 17th green. But as this image testifies, our unanimous conclusion was that it would not be appropriate. The great Harry Colt didn’t feel the need for bunkering on this hole; neither do we."

They'll change pretty much everything else but offer this bone.  And clueless that the 17th isn't an original hole!

The press release before this project was a flat out lie.
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Tom Birkert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2009, 02:32:10 PM »
I fail to see how Ernie Els is qualified to be involved in this project. He lives on the Estate and has a very good record there, but his initial job at changing the course consisted of simply dotting bunkers both sides of the fairway and surrounding the greens with them.

I am not a fan of the changes thus far, and I suspect things are going to get worse, not better.

For a course that charges so much to play, dropping out of the Top 100, along with the criticism of pros about the greens, the loss of the World Matchplay and the economic troubles, I think the owners should be pretty nervous...

Paul_Turner

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2009, 02:55:37 PM »
Tom

Wentworth had its soul sold to corporate golf many moons ago...I guess it was only a matter of time.   When the press release about the project included statements from a BMW executive (the PGA sponsor), you know it's all about $.  And  if you charge $500 for a day's play everyone expects perfect grass.

Els is a nice guy but a complete dunderhead when it comes to golf courses.



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Brian_Ewen

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2009, 03:08:08 PM »
Awesome challenge ahead at new-look West Course
02 Sep 2009


It is one of the abiding images of any BMW PGA Championship at Wentworth Club. The packed stands behind the 18th green on the West Course, flanked by the vast Hospitality Units on one side and state-of-the-art big screen TV on the other.

As a gladiatorial amphitheatre, that compact bowl sitting beneath the famous clubhouse generates an unbeatable electric atmosphere as the latest BMW PGA Champion is crowned on a Sunday evening in May.

However, a stroll down that familiar dog-leg par five closing hole at the moment will paint a completely different picture. The 18th green and approaches have disappeared under a mountain of earth as construction work continues apace to restore and modernise the West Course.

By the time Paul Casey defends his BMW PGA title next May, Wentworth will be proud owners of a fabulous facility designed for the 21st century, including a new-look 18th which promises to heighten the tension and drama like never before.

A water hazard will run parallel to the right-hand edge of the 18th fairway from 90 yards out then across the front portion and down the left side of the green. The green itself has been moved to the right and re-shaped to provide a potentially treacherous closing hole, adding to the excitement of the spectators and the nerves of the players.

It has been an enormous project undertaken by the Ernie Els Design Team in the immediate aftermath of the 2009 BMW PGA Championship, at the behest of Wentworth Club’s ambitious owner, Richard Caring, who took the bold decision to close the West Course for ten months and dig up all 18 greens and replace the poa grass with colonial bent to USGA specifications.

As Els says: “Through detailed discussions with Richard Caring, it became clear that this would be a once in a lifetime opportunity to leave a lasting legacy  - a final, dramatic brush stroke if you like -on the one remaining area of the West Course which required attention.

“I firmly believe that if Harry Colt was alive today he would approve of what we are doing to refine and modernise his classic design. Harry was a man of remarkable vision and style in the early part of the 20th century and I am of the opinion that Wentworth’s role is to be equally visionary and progressive in this first decade of the 21st century. It is Wentworth’s way to pay close attention to detail and take pride in the quality of finish. This is what we are doing with the West.”

Apart from hole 18, which promises to be the jewel in the crown when the course re-opens for play in March 2010, there will be several other changes to whet the appetite of the golfing connoisseur. Specifically, the ninth green has been raised by a metre and the 12th - which will become a challenging 485 yard par four rather than a straightforward par five - by nearly two metres; the 17th has new humps and swales which will sweep away any misdirected shots; the eighth green is smaller and the water hazard has been extended so that it is now in close proximity to the putting surface.

Additionally, a full review of the bunkering has also been undertaken with some new ones constructed, some removed altogether and others remodelled.

Around 20,000 square metres of turf was grown in Lincolnshire and transported in sections as required to Surrey to be laid with the skill and efficiency of a carpet-fitter within 24 hours of delivery. As with every other part of the project, nothing is ever left to chance.

Currently, eight greens have been completed, with a view for the remainder of the basic reconstruction work to be completed by the end of September 2009.

Els has taken an almost paternal view of the project and, like any expectant father, he cannot wait for the 2010 BMW PGA Championship, when his peers on The European Tour can ‘test drive’ the new layout for the first time in competition.

He concluded: “When Colt designed the course there were no sprinkler systems, so the greens needed to be able to hold water in the winter to provide moisture for the summer. To do this they put a layer of clay underneath the top soil.

“But now with today’s sprinkler systems and the rain we get early in the year, the water has nowhere to go so it just collects on the surface of the greens. That creates sponginess and an inconsistent roll. That’s why we had to rebuild the greens. It was the only way forward.”

Nothing gets in the way of progress and certainly the West Course greens present an aesthetically pleasing – as well as challenging – appearance with the new colonial bent grass creating a colour contrast with the darker rye grass around the fringes.

There is already a tangible sense of excitement around Wentworth these days and it is not hard to see why. Anyone who has been fortunate enough to witness the work in progress will want to dust down the clubs and play. It promises to be an awesome and formidable experience.


Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2009, 04:35:45 PM »
This was Ernie Els before the project...you fibber

"Everyone at the Club felt there was a need to build new greens and in the end it came down to timing. With the World Matchplay moving to Spain, the calendar is clear for the work to begin, so all 18 greens and green surrounds are going to be re-built to USGA specification. Our other main objective is to bring the greens back to the form, shape and contour more in keeping with architect Harry Colt’s original vision. Many of the greens have shrunk over the years and in some cases have become disconnected in relation to the greenside bunkers and green surrounds.
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Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2009, 04:45:28 PM »
I know the club have wanted to rebuild these greens since the mid 80s. From the pictures the new bunkering at 7, 9 and 15 looks quite 'Colty' and I think some of the greens have gotten a bit too small for modern play with the big tiers. I am not sure if Wentworth had a lot of architectural merit anyway 17 is a long curve that goes against the landslope, this was no great hole, 14 is hardly a stunner and 18 without the stands could have been anywhere really. I am sure the new 18th will be viewed as better by 95% of the world. It's a shame the course is adding Rye grass rather than trying to reinstate heather, but overall I think the changes are more likely to elevate its ranking rather than lower it. I am looking forward to seeing the whole thing and keep an open mind on Mr Els work for the time being.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2009, 04:50:19 PM »
Awesome challenge ahead at new-look West Course
02 Sep 2009


He concluded: “When Colt designed the course there were no sprinkler systems, so the greens needed to be able to hold water in the winter to provide moisture for the summer. To do this they put a layer of clay underneath the top soil.

“But now with today’s sprinkler systems and the rain we get early in the year, the water has nowhere to go so it just collects on the surface of the greens. That creates sponginess and an inconsistent roll. That’s why we had to rebuild the greens. It was the only way forward.”



Not literally true as MacDonald had them in the USA 20 years earlier, but it does make me wonder what was the first course in GB&I, or the continent, with sprinklers?
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Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2009, 05:09:45 PM »
Not sure Tony, I think Coombe Hill might have been the first or certanly very early to have fairway pop ups, there may have been feeds to greens at some courses from a fairly early date, it would not have been crazy money to feed a 1 inch main to 18 greens with simple stop taps etc. Pop ups were 1950s though .
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2009, 07:40:01 PM »
I know the club have wanted to rebuild these greens since the mid 80s. From the pictures the new bunkering at 7, 9 and 15 looks quite 'Colty' and I think some of the greens have gotten a bit too small for modern play with the big tiers. I am not sure if Wentworth had a lot of architectural merit anyway 17 is a long curve that goes against the landslope, this was no great hole, 14 is hardly a stunner and 18 without the stands could have been anywhere really. I am sure the new 18th will be viewed as better by 95% of the world. It's a shame the course is adding Rye grass rather than trying to reinstate heather, but overall I think the changes are more likely to elevate its ranking rather than lower it. I am looking forward to seeing the whole thing and keep an open mind on Mr Els work for the time being.

Adrian

I kind of agree with you regarding 17 and 18.  They weren't great holes, although 17 was much better when it had loads of space out to the right for the tee shot.  But the club has been planting trees rather than removing them, so no chance of getting any breathing room there.  17 and 18 are actually not original holes and date back to the 1930s...I'm not sure if Colt did them or not. 

Re: the bunkers, they could have researched a bit and got it right, it wouldn't have taken much effort.
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Robin_Hiseman

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2009, 06:16:38 AM »
Wentworth is 5 mins from our office.  I popped down there yesterday lunchtime and saw the new stream on 18 in the process of being lined.  It looks like its going to have a timber sleeper face along the greenside.  Kind of 'Belfryfied' if you like. ;)
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Martin Toal

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2009, 06:44:13 AM »
Oh dear. Nothing associated with The Belfry is a good idea for any decent course to copy.

I played Wentworth in the BMA PGA Pro-Am this year, with Euro Tour pro Ollie Fisher. He remarked that the greens were (paraphrasing), not very good. I have to say I thought they were pretty fast, although, to be fair, I don't play as much on the Tour as Ollie.

The 18th with the stands up are a great place to play to. It seemed much narrower than as a spectator.

Gareth Williams

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2009, 07:07:50 AM »
Wentworth is 5 mins from our office.  I popped down there yesterday lunchtime and saw the new stream on 18 in the process of being lined.  It looks like its going to have a timber sleeper face along the greenside.  Kind of 'Belfryfied' if you like. ;)



I saw that too last week Robin.

I've also looked at the work going on around 7/8/9/10/12/13 and 14 over the last 6 months or so and it does look like the look and feel of the course will be very different come 2010.

I do worry that the Colt elements will be lost in their quest to keep their Tour events and the players "happy"....

Tom Birkert

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2009, 09:44:48 AM »
I've just seen a picture in Golf International magazine of what has been done to the 12th green. It's not good to my eye - it looks very "American" in style.

Reading the article there can be no doubt that they have no interest in maintaining any of Colt's designs. The pond in front of the 8th apparently has been extended and now has an "impressive new sleeper wall" and an "attractive waterfall on the left hand side".

Furthermore, with regards to fairway bunkers, "some will be consigned to the history books; elsewhere, new ones will be created".

Oh dear.

Scott Warren

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2009, 09:53:08 AM »
Golf Monthly is due to update its GB&I Top 100 next year, isn't it?

Will WW be re-open in time for the raters to check it out and re-rate accordingly?

Ben Stephens

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2009, 10:33:29 AM »
Scott,

Golf World GB+ I top 100 historically has been in the November edition every bi-annual year ending with even number.
So it is likely to be Nov 2010 and the WW course will be open before this - so it will be interesting what the judges opinion of the redesign will be.

Cheers

Ben

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2009, 11:03:30 AM »
Scott,

Golf World GB+ I top 100 historically has been in the November edition every bi-annual year ending with even number.
So it is likely to be Nov 2010 and the WW course will be open before this - so it will be interesting what the judges opinion of the redesign will be.

Cheers

Ben

It will get an initial boost because it's new, it's a change and therefore it has an increased profile as all the pros comment positively on it.

Then it will fall away in the 10 years following as people realise that all its heathland characteristics have disappeared and it's lost what old world charm it once had...

Ben Stephens

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2009, 11:07:53 AM »
Scott,

Golf World GB+ I top 100 historically has been in the November edition every bi-annual year ending with even number.
So it is likely to be Nov 2010 and the WW course will be open before this - so it will be interesting what the judges opinion of the redesign will be.

Cheers

Ben

It will get an initial boost because it's new, it's a change and therefore it has an increased profile as all the pros comment positively on it.

Then it will fall away in the 10 years following as people realise that all its heathland characteristics have disappeared and it's lost what old world charm it once had...

Ally,

 I would agree with you regarding the GW Top 100 - also the pros have been blinded by the Augusta Syndrome more than any type of golfer. Most of the guys on GCA are golfing purists!

Ben 

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2009, 11:40:50 AM »
Scott,

Golf World GB+ I top 100 historically has been in the November edition every bi-annual year ending with even number.
So it is likely to be Nov 2010 and the WW course will be open before this - so it will be interesting what the judges opinion of the redesign will be.

Cheers

Ben

It will get an initial boost because it's new, it's a change and therefore it has an increased profile as all the pros comment positively on it.

Then it will fall away in the 10 years following as people realise that all its heathland characteristics have disappeared and it's lost what old world charm it once had...

Ally,

 I would agree with you regarding the GW Top 100 - also the pros have been blinded by the Augusta Syndrome more than any type of golfer. Most of the guys on GCA are golfing purists!

Ben 

Agreed Ben,

The pros will rate it highly because they will have nice new bent grass greens to putt on... and for PR reasons, they won't want to be seen belittling a fellow pro's design...

But even without that, most new courses get rated highly at first before dropping off... Wentworth won't go too far though as long as it holds on to its tournaments...

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2009, 11:45:58 AM »
Scott,

Golf World GB+ I top 100 historically has been in the November edition every bi-annual year ending with even number.
So it is likely to be Nov 2010 and the WW course will be open before this - so it will be interesting what the judges opinion of the redesign will be.

Cheers

Ben

It will get an initial boost because it's new, it's a change and therefore it has an increased profile as all the pros comment positively on it.

Then it will fall away in the 10 years following as people realise that all its heathland characteristics have disappeared and it's lost what old world charm it once had...
Ally - I think most of these Surrey courses are great but to me Wentworth was never quite the star although because it staged two events per year was rather put on perhaps a false elevation to start with. Don't get me wrong Wentworth is/was no minger, but where were the really great holes maybe 1, 8, 13 perhaps 15. 17 & 18 I cant really see as great holes but they have history and the past drama. I think perhaps there wasn't so much to keep afterall and I am definety more open minded to see what EE comes up with. I think 18 will be a big hit with its new water. I think if Wentworth can retain the good things it had and improve on the less interesting areas it could shine rather brighty.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wentworth West Redesign
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2009, 11:48:28 AM »
Scott,

Golf World GB+ I top 100 historically has been in the November edition every bi-annual year ending with even number.
So it is likely to be Nov 2010 and the WW course will be open before this - so it will be interesting what the judges opinion of the redesign will be.

Cheers

Ben

It will get an initial boost because it's new, it's a change and therefore it has an increased profile as all the pros comment positively on it.

Then it will fall away in the 10 years following as people realise that all its heathland characteristics have disappeared and it's lost what old world charm it once had...
Ally - I think most of these Surrey courses are great but to me Wentworth was never quite the star although because it staged two events per year was rather put on perhaps a false elevation to start with. Don't get me wrong Wentworth is/was no minger, but where were the really great holes maybe 1, 8, 13 perhaps 15. 17 & 18 I cant really see as great holes but they have history and the past drama. I think perhaps there wasn't so much to keep afterall and I am definety more open minded to see what EE comes up with. I think 18 will be a big hit with its new water. I think if Wentworth can retain the good things it had and improve on the less interesting areas it could shine rather brighty.

Perhaps you are right Adrian... I am flippantly damning the design before seeing it... I agree that it wasn't the star and to be honest, it had already lost many of its heathland characteristics...

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