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Richard Choi

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With times like these, when new golf projects are few and far between, you really need to think hard about what kind of course you are going to build when you are the developer.

And if you are the developer, is it wise to build a course that caters to GCA crowds? In many other areas, say architecture, catering to the "in" crowd does not pay. There are hundreds, even thousands of spec houses for any house of any architectural merit. Is golf architecture any different?

I guess what I am saying is, is the new golden era of golf architecture dead?

I believe the reason why we had such great group of new courses over last 2 decades or so is because of the booming golf course industry, you could afford to build at least a small number of courses that were geared towards the afficianados. But with fewer and fewer courses being built, developers are going to demand that the architecture be more "accessible" and lead us back to the architecturally dead period (50's through 70's).

Or am I completely wrong, and with the fewer courses being built, the quality of each course will actually go up?

What is the future of golf course architecture over the next decade or so during the "muddled through economic recovery"?

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it a good idea to target GCA crowd when designing a course?
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2009, 12:58:10 PM »
Interstingly, Richard, this came up during my game of golf yesterday.

The question we ended up unable to satisfactorily answer was how three or four courses designed by Tom Doak can close in the space of a year if the quality of the course is directly linked to the success of a golf development? I guess the quality of a golf course from a GCA standpoint is down the list of priorities for a developer, but by the same token, could Bandon or Barnbougle have succeeded if the courses weren't so magnificent?

In business, it generally pays to appeal to the largest possible market. I would suggest some of the courses we love don't do that, but some courses that get panned on here - from the likes of Fazio, Nicklaus and Norman - do it very well.

If you were producing music to make filthy amounts of money, would you get behind Britney Spears or The Shins?

BCrosby

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Re: Is it a good idea to target GCA crowd when designing a course?
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2009, 01:31:32 PM »
Interstingly, Richard, this came up during my game of golf yesterday.

The question we ended up unable to satisfactorily answer was how three or four courses designed by Tom Doak can close in the space of a year if the quality of the course is directly linked to the success of a golf development? I guess the quality of a golf course from a GCA standpoint is down the list of priorities for a developer, but by the same token, could Bandon or Barnbougle have succeeded if the courses weren't so magnificent?

In business, it generally pays to appeal to the largest possible market. I would suggest some of the courses we love don't do that, but some courses that get panned on here - from the likes of Fazio, Nicklaus and Norman - do it very well.

If you were producing music to make filthy amounts of money, would you get behind Britney Spears or The Shins?

That's basically right. There is an inherent conflict between the developer's interests and the homeowner's interests. It has to do with conflicting time frames.

You are concerned with the long term value of your investment in a home on a golf development. You, as a long term investor, want your golf course's reputation to appreciate. The value of your home will appreciate with it. Whether or not that happens is a function, to some extent, of the quality of the work of the architect. If the GCA crowd (whatever the heck that means) is right in its views, then you ought to invest in courses based on quality not on popularity at the time the development opens.

A developer couldn't care less about that. He wants sales up front. So he is motivated to use the most popular architects at the time the development opens. For those reasons he will always choose a more popular architect over an architect who is merely better.

Bob

« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 01:36:27 PM by BCrosby »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Is it a good idea to target GCA crowd when designing a course?
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2009, 02:13:14 PM »
Richard:

I have never built a course to "target the GCA crowd."  I build stuff I think will be interesting and fun for lots of players.

That is NOT the same as building for the Lowest Common Denominator.

Bob:

You may be right about what a housing developer wants in a golf course architect, but those guys are pretty much out of business now, anyway.

As to the people who would develop a new course as a stand-alone deal out of their own pockets, they are more of the opposite tack.  They are not building a golf course as a great investment; they're building a golf course because they love golf and want to do something cool with some of their money.  So they are not too likely to just take the safe choice.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Is it a good idea to target GCA crowd when designing a course?
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2009, 02:36:06 PM »
Richard,
How many GCA afficianados are out there?  I'd hazard a guess as "not many".

The vast majority of people that play golf want a course in superb condition (#1 factor?) with "everything all right out in front of you".  Throw in anything original, and they tend to dislike it.

Scott's musical metaphor is right on the mark.  The R&A guys at record companies are producing bland rubbish while the truly great stuff is hard to find - like The Shins.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it a good idea to target GCA crowd when designing a course?
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2009, 03:33:50 PM »
Tom, while I understand your aims, you cannot ignore that for most of the paying golfers out there, fun equals relatively flat greens, high tee boxes with lower fairways, and beautifully lush tree lined courses that are softer than Rosie O'Donnell's butt.

While we love the courses at Bandon Dunes, only very small percentage of golfers have ever seen it, and most never will. And I am not convinced that if the majority of the golfers played the courses at Bandon Dunes, they would actually comeback to play it.

If I am a developer right now, wouldn't I, more than ever, play safe and go with somebody like Tom Fazio rather than taking a risk with someone who is considered "quirky" by the regular golfing crowd?

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it a good idea to target GCA crowd when designing a course?
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2009, 04:10:57 PM »
Every golf course or golf course project is different, but there is no doubt that most people simply do not care as much as the people on this forum and in all honesty this forum whilst 'together' is a very minority opinion. Most golfers are pretty clueless as to who designed their home course let alone familiar with styles, with the exception of Palmer, Nicklaus, Trent Jones and perhaps some will know about Pete Dye, the architect otherwise is rather meaningless.

The average joe is concerened as much about riding in a cart, does the halfway house make a nice sandwich, is the beer good, is the grass good quality, are the greens fast, does the course look pretty, is it nice and green, the striped fairways, is the beer cart girl hot. The course itself needs to be a reasonable challenge without losing zillions of balls in long rough. I would say golfers hate three putting so big undulating greens will be a minus factor in enjoyment quality to many and there are people that feel that greens themselves should not penalise you (I am not saying they are right) once you have got there. Long shaggy rough around bunkers is a thumbs up to some and a thumbs down to others.

Price will always be a big factor, there are more people willing to play if its cheaper, location is a big factor equated with other golf courses within your area. If you want a specific course to target a certain sector understand you will exclude some then location can play a big factor and you might succeed, areas do need a range of courses.

I dont know much about Bandon as a buisness, but the courses look great and I would fancy a trip there with my buddies, however none of them will go because of its location. A few hours drive from the nearest airport must be a massive inhibitor. In the UK Dornoch is miles from chimmney pots, if it was nearer it would be more of a commercal sucess, although things dont always have to be commercial of course.

A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Is it a good idea to target GCA crowd when designing a course?
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2009, 08:35:54 PM »
Richard:

How many millions of dollars do you want to spend?

Jason Connor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it a good idea to target GCA crowd when designing a course?
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2009, 09:31:52 PM »
This morning I played Sugarloaf Mountain, one of the few semblances of GCA in Central Florida.

Sunday morning greenfee (with cart if one wanted one, fortunately they allow walking) was $40 and the course was pretty empty.

If GCA could fill up a tee sheet, Sugarloaf wouldn't have decreased membership fees by 80%.
And Mr. Doak's great designs probably wouldn't be closing.

I think we underestimate how many other golfers want to get out, not play by the rules, get away from their wives, and bomb their drivers.
We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Richard Choi

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Re: Is it a good idea to target GCA crowd when designing a course?
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2009, 09:36:26 PM »
How many millions of dollars do you want to spend?

I said "like Tom Fazio" and not "Tom Fazio" ;)

Michael Dugger

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Re: Is it a good idea to target GCA crowd when designing a course?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2009, 10:06:32 PM »
...fun equals relatively flat greens, high tee boxes with lower fairways, and beautifully lush tree lined courses that are softer than Rosie O'Donnell's butt.

Richard,

I think you are equating easy scoring with fun, and I disagree wholeheartedly.

An element of golf will always be fun, you are out in nature, away from the wife, drinking beer and sucking up fresh air and sunshine.

These qualities are inherent in any two bit course, but it's strategy, thought, challenge and intrigue that most true golfers consider fun.

Have you played Sandpines, by chance???
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Is it a good idea to target GCA crowd when designing a course?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2009, 10:09:27 PM »
Richard:

Nice try, but who else is "like" Tom Fazio?

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it a good idea to target GCA crowd when designing a course?
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2009, 10:17:21 PM »
Sunday morning greenfee (with cart if one wanted one, fortunately they allow walking) was $40 and the course was pretty empty.

Well it is August in Orlando.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is it a good idea to target GCA crowd when designing a course?
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2009, 10:23:13 PM »
Michael, I have not played Sandpines, but I plan to when I am heading down to Bandon next year.

Tom, there must be quite a few ex Fazio associates that are looking to go on their own. I am guessing they would cost just a fraction of what TF charges and should be quite competent in mimicing their teacher.

Eric Smith

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Re: Is it a good idea to target GCA crowd when designing a course?
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2009, 10:29:59 PM »
If I am a developer right now, wouldn't I, more than ever, play safe and go with somebody like Tom Fazio rather than taking a risk with someone who is considered "quirky" by the regular golfing crowd?


Tom, there must be quite a few ex Fazio associates that are looking to go on their own. I am guessing they would cost just a fraction of what TF charges and should be quite competent in mimicing their teacher.

I think I get what you're getting at here, but is a developer really playing it safe by hiring an unknown ex-associate?