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Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2009, 05:51:37 PM »
#11 @ Merion, Chip? Can you articulate your justification for labeling it the worst?


The worst hole at Pebble is the new fifth.


What's the worst hole at Augusta?



Adam, can you explain why you consider the fifth at Pebble it weakest hole?  I've only played PB once, and it was with the new fifth so I don't have the benefit of being able to compare it to the original.  Is it weak compared to the old fifth, or does it stand on its own as being a weak hole?  I personally didn't have any problems with the hole, I thought it was demanding but I didn't think it was weak.  I'd appreciate your thoughts, thanks.


I have not played the new 5th but Ive seen it on TV and it looks many times better than the old 5th. Surely the first must be a strong candidate for worst hole at PB. 12 at PB is a tough mother, several holes are not great at PB although it has several 'tens'. Augusta I'd go with the 7th (as 450 yards), 17 looks averagey but thats a TV opinion.
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Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2009, 06:07:48 PM »
#14 at Cuscowilla is not my cup of tea, however, the course remains a favorite.



Most who don't like one of the holes at Cuscowilla mention #13, I've always thought #14 is a good solid par 4 with a wonderful green.  What don't you like about it, Mark?

Or maybe you were thinking of #13!  ;D  Which I happen to like, the challenge of those cross bunkers at the bottom of the hill is daunting.

Bill,

I love the Par 4 13th hole.  I am referring to #14, the 600 yard Par 5 with a tree in the fairway and the bunkers in the hill.  The green on 14 is fine, I the rest of the hole that I don't get.  It is basically a Par 6 for me.  

So go practice and make it a Par 5.

Now that's pure genius, yawn.  

Mark,

Actually that's the crux of the game. The hole is posing a question you don't have the skill to answer yet.

Do you:

A: Practice and develop a method to overcome those difficulties and score better on it?

or

B: Claim that you don't get the hole or it's not your cup of tea and then seek to change the hole to suit your inabilities...

I don't dislike the hole because any personal scoring issues and I certainly have zero interest in changing the hole, I just simply don't care for it.  It was an answer to this thread's question.  There are numerous holes I am fond of that I don't score particularly well on and several holes that have little interest that I do usually score well on. 

If everyone practiced more and improved their skill would everyone suddenly have a new appreciation for GCA?

Matt_Ward

Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2009, 06:10:15 PM »
I'll throw two (2) for starters -- the cliosing hole at Bethpage Black -- just needs an entirely different presentation. It's not an indifferent hole -- just a bad one that should be much better given what comes before it.

The 17th at RCD -- have no idea about why a pond is there. Of the closing three holes at RCD this one sticks out like a sore thumb for me.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2009, 06:13:51 PM »
Jeff, Since the hole can only be played from the tips by the pros, I'm not sure on how it stacks up on the weakness scale from there.

But, in comparison to the original fifth, for the resort player (or me), yes, the hole is much more benign now.

 The old green was easily one of the hardest to figure out on the WHOLE course. It had certain spots that were extremely severe and others that were counter intuitive due to the way multiple slopes interacted. (Reminds me of a Maxwell as I write this).

On the old hole, one was forced to carry the bunkers, and, just being on did not guarantee a score. On the new, flying the right bunker is sheer folly, and, any ball on, is likely guaranteed no more than bogey. (and that's being kind since there is but one ridge and it is not terribly difficult to figure out)

Within a few weeks of the new hole being opened to the public, the narrowing of the scoring spectrum was evident. As was it's ease, with at least two aces that I know of in that short period of time. You never heard about aces at the old fifth. The distance is much shorter now because the company will more than not use the farthest up teeing ground.

Now that the houses are built, I suspect it's an even worse feeling than I remember. Being cramped onto that one lot, now with two large houses and a golf hole.

As for the routing, it has been rudely interrupted resulting in a loss of all of the magical feeling as one approached six tee. It was a special feeling seeing the whole hole, the wide expanse of parts of #8, #14, and the lone tree in the distance, especially ones first time, but just as special on their hundredth.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 06:17:49 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2009, 09:04:36 AM »
There are a few angles to the W&S quote:
1) Per Kyle, a breather -- the "perfect" course to W&S would consist of 18 consecutive perfect holes.  Their vote for the perfect hole is TOC 17.  But the thought of 18 straight TOC17s horrifies them.
2) The pursuit of perfection must include imperfection.  The designer must take chances and work to the point of failure. An "even" design means a mediocre design. This is borrowed from Ruskin.

Is it fair to assume the choice is between 18 great holes or 16/17 great holes?  Routings involve compromise; perhaps the real choice is 16 great holes + 2 "charming" versus 8 great holes + 10 average / "solid."

What do you think of this: Colt was right, there are no great courses, merely "least-bad" ones.  There are zero courses in the world that harbor no flaws.  Every single one is fixable if one seeks perfection.  But what is the record on great courses where perfection is sought?  I would argue more imperfection.

Therefore, we must accept great courses as containing imperfection, lest we unintentionally increase that imperfection in our drive for perfection.

It eluded us then, but that's no matter -- tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms further... And one fine morning --

Kenny Baer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2009, 09:19:05 AM »
I agree with Mark.

The 14th hole at Cusco is a poorly designed golf hole by all estimation for all level of golfer.  I would bet Coore and Crenshaw wouldn't like it.

1. Blind Tee Shot......
2. Blind lay up off a side hill down hill lie with a 180+ yd carry.
3. Blind to semi blind approach.

Never mind the ugly retention pond left of the tee with the houses left of that.  The green is fine if not good like most every green on the course.  I think the hole would be better if they filled in the cross bunkers at the very least they should cut down the tree.

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2009, 09:29:15 AM »
I agree with Mark.

The 14th hole at Cusco is a poorly designed golf hole by all estimation for all level of golfer.  I would bet Coore and Crenshaw wouldn't like it.

1. Blind Tee Shot......
2. Blind lay up off a side hill down hill lie with a 180+ yd carry.
3. Blind to semi blind approach.

Never mind the ugly retention pond left of the tee with the houses left of that.  The green is fine if not good like most every green on the course.  I think the hole would be better if they filled in the cross bunkers at the very least they should cut down the tree.

Kenny,

Please get out there on your big wheel and take care of that tree for us! ;D

MP

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2009, 09:31:54 AM »
#14 at Cuscowilla is not my cup of tea, however, the course remains a favorite.



Most who don't like one of the holes at Cuscowilla mention #13, I've always thought #14 is a good solid par 4 with a wonderful green.  What don't you like about it, Mark?

Or maybe you were thinking of #13!  ;D  Which I happen to like, the challenge of those cross bunkers at the bottom of the hill is daunting.

Bill,

I love the Par 4 13th hole.  I am referring to #14, the 600 yard Par 5 with a tree in the fairway and the bunkers in the hill.  The green on 14 is fine, I the rest of the hole that I don't get.  It is basically a Par 6 for me. 

Right, I'm one off, #14 is the controversial par 5.  And you're correct, a scrambled 5 seems more like a birdie than a par!

Kenny Baer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2009, 09:42:05 AM »
I have played that hole by
1. Hitting a 260-280+ yard drive
2. Hitting an 80 yd Lob Wedge
3. Hitting a 230-250 yd 3 wood
4. Chipping up from 20 yds short of the green and making par.

Any hole that after a well struck drive ask you to then hit a 70-100 yd lay up that leaves you 250 yds out is just poorly designed.

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2009, 09:48:49 AM »
I have played that hole by
1. Hitting a 260-280+ yard drive
2. Hitting an 80 yd Lob Wedge
3. Hitting a 230-250 yd 3 wood
4. Chipping up from 20 yds short of the green and making par.

Any hole that after a well struck drive ask you to then hit a 70-100 yd lay up that leaves you 250 yds out is just poorly designed.

and that 250 yard shot to the green is blind from a down hill lie.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2009, 11:08:35 AM »
There are a few angles to the W&S quote:
1) Per Kyle, a breather -- the "perfect" course to W&S would consist of 18 consecutive perfect holes.  Their vote for the perfect hole is TOC 17.  But the thought of 18 straight TOC17s horrifies them.
2) The pursuit of perfection must include imperfection.  The designer must take chances and work to the point of failure. An "even" design means a mediocre design. This is borrowed from Ruskin.

Is it fair to assume the choice is between 18 great holes or 16/17 great holes?  Routings involve compromise; perhaps the real choice is 16 great holes + 2 "charming" versus 8 great holes + 10 average / "solid."

What do you think of this: Colt was right, there are no great courses, merely "least-bad" ones.  There are zero courses in the world that harbor no flaws.  Every single one is fixable if one seeks perfection.  But what is the record on great courses where perfection is sought?  I would argue more imperfection.

Therefore, we must accept great courses as containing imperfection, lest we unintentionally increase that imperfection in our drive for perfection.

It eluded us then, but that's no matter -- tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms further... And one fine morning --

OK Mark, makes sense.  However, if there is going to be imperfection, I say it is best to house it as controversial or clearly a breather hole in a harsh stretch or to finish.  There has to be a flow reason or an opportunity to zing the player (think of St Enodoc's #10 for an example of this sort of controversy or perhaps Addington's 8th, 12th or 13th).

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Chechesee Creek & Old Barnwell

Kyle Harris

Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #61 on: August 17, 2009, 03:43:21 PM »


If everyone practiced more and improved their skill would everyone suddenly have a new appreciation for GCA?

Yes, yes, yes A MILLION TIMES YES.

The pursuit of better scoring is the ultimate way to integrate with GCA.

Strokes are the currency of the game, and the chief success in the game is to save as much currency as possible.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #62 on: August 17, 2009, 03:57:13 PM »
Jeez, this is a lot like trying to pick the ugliest Dallas Cowboys Cheerleader.

Jerry Jones.

Can't really comment on the courses, have played too few. I will say, every hole at Augusta looks pretty compelling to me, even with alterations I don't particularly care for. I do know that I'd hate the chute of trees that now defines the 18th tee shot.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Peter Pallotta

Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #63 on: August 17, 2009, 04:46:16 PM »
More esoteric explanations that such imperfections somehow evoke nature or are charmingly discordant seem to me nothing more than, well....esoteric. 

You're right, Bob. I think W&S were referring to the devolution of all human faculties after the Fall, and specifically to the coarsening of our tastes and aesthetic and most of all to the deadening of our imaginations, shaped not by the ever-new mysteries of the sacred but by the worn-out conceits of the profane. The sophisticates swimming in their ennui, the elites looking for the one thing that money could not buy.

Peter

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #64 on: August 17, 2009, 05:35:51 PM »


If everyone practiced more and improved their skill would everyone suddenly have a new appreciation for GCA?

Yes, yes, yes A MILLION TIMES YES.

The pursuit of better scoring is the ultimate way to integrate with GCA.

Strokes are the currency of the game, and the chief success in the game is to save as much currency as possible.

Kyle,

I find it interesting that you believe PGA Tour pros have the most appreciation for GCA.

I disagree completely.  In fact I think it is often the route a weaker player uncovers that brings me greater appreciation to the nuances of GCA.

Mark

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2009, 05:54:10 PM »
Mark,

I don't think that's what he was saying...I think he was saying that weaker player (or any player) can only uncover a nuance to appreciation by trying to find a better way to get in the hole in fewer strokes.

It's the process, not the result in my opinion.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #66 on: August 17, 2009, 06:02:13 PM »
Jim,  I think you give him too much benefit of the doubt.  The question he answered with a thousand Yeses was straight forward.  If everyone practiced more and improved their skill would everyone suddenly have a new appreciation for GCA?

Nothing about finding a better way to get to the hole.  Nothing about using creativity or imagination to solve the problem presented.  Nothing about exploring options that the better golfer might never consider.   "Practicing and improving one's skill" has nothing to do with finding a better way to get in the hole in fewer strokes.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #67 on: August 17, 2009, 06:46:04 PM »
Peter

I would agree with that comment insofar as the Jazz Age or GCA post WW2, but I'm not sure about its aplication to GCA of that era.

And Bob I just have to disagree.  That last sentence I'm beginning to think is not so much about great vs crap as it is about the "chilly precision" of completeness jading the imagination.

Have to confess though I have fallen to the idee fixe of Gestalt and how designers can incorporate purposeful incompleteness to "co opt" the player into active participation. if someone shows you a picture of a square, you just passively receive it without much thought and with no partyicipation.

But when he shows you a picture of a three sided figure, mentally you can't help but complete the square.

This relates to one of Mackenzie's applications of camouflage' as we have discussed in the past.

Mark

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #68 on: August 17, 2009, 07:05:38 PM »
For all of you who have cited what you consider weak or worst holes, could you please expand on what you would substitute them for ?

In other words, what hole would you design to fill their spot ?

Details please  ;D

Kyle Harris

Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #69 on: August 17, 2009, 07:12:27 PM »
Mark,

What Jim said...

Remember, the ball is yearning to get into the hole - it's your job to show it the way.

DMoriarty,

Next time, ask me to extrapolate. I said the "pursuit of better scoring is the ultimate way to integrate with GCA." I did not say the "achievement."
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 07:14:25 PM by Kyle Harris »

Link Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #70 on: August 17, 2009, 07:26:56 PM »
I have played that hole by
1. Hitting a 260-280+ yard drive
2. Hitting an 80 yd Lob Wedge
3. Hitting a 230-250 yd 3 wood
4. Chipping up from 20 yds short of the green and making par.

Any hole that after a well struck drive ask you to then hit a 70-100 yd lay up that leaves you 250 yds out is just poorly designed.


The only thing I didn't like about 14 (only played it once) was that they had both the fairway bunkers built into the hillside to guard the second shot landing area AND the tree(s).  If you take the trees out, I like how they try to make you hit a hero shot of 180-200 yards uphill off a downhill lie if you want to challenge the bunkers.  If you don't want that shot, just lay up further to the left and leave yourself a longer 3rd. 

The tee shot and the green site were fine by me. 



Link Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #71 on: August 17, 2009, 07:28:33 PM »
I'll throw two (2) for starters -- the cliosing hole at Bethpage Black -- just needs an entirely different presentation. It's not an indifferent hole -- just a bad one that should be much better given what comes before it.

The 17th at RCD -- have no idea about why a pond is there. Of the closing three holes at RCD this one sticks out like a sore thumb for me.


Maybe I'm confusing RCD with another course, but I think I saw them talking about this hole one year on the Senior British Open.  They said the water hazard is a natural spring.  It does seem to be an awkward looking tee shot though, doesn't it? 

Peter Pallotta

Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2009, 07:56:55 PM »
Mark - you're very kind for treating that bit of palavar seriously.  I'm sure you're right and I'm wrong, and I was trying mostly to write as esoterically as I could. But apparently, I failed in that regard too....

On the other side, though, I really do think you are understanding/articlulating something pretty fundamental (even if largely unconscious in the minds of the practitioners) when you talk of 'participation' as you do there

Peter

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2009, 08:14:49 PM »
DMoriarty,

Next time, ask me to extrapolate. I said the "pursuit of better scoring is the ultimate way to integrate with GCA." I did not say the "achievement."

Mark asked: 
"If everyone practiced more and improved their skill would everyone suddenly have a new appreciation for GCA?"

And your response was:
"Yes, yes, yes A MILLION TIMES YES."

Why would I ask you to extrapolate when the question was clear and your answer was A MILLION TIMES clear?   

Besides, whether "pursuit" or "achievement," practicing more and improving one's skill has nothing to do with one's ability to appreciate GCA.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Kyle Harris

Re: Worst holes on otherwise great courses?
« Reply #74 on: August 17, 2009, 08:49:27 PM »
DMoriarty,

Next time, ask me to extrapolate. I said the "pursuit of better scoring is the ultimate way to integrate with GCA." I did not say the "achievement."

Mark asked: 
"If everyone practiced more and improved their skill would everyone suddenly have a new appreciation for GCA?"

And your response was:
"Yes, yes, yes A MILLION TIMES YES."

Why would I ask you to extrapolate when the question was clear and your answer was A MILLION TIMES clear?   

Besides, whether "pursuit" or "achievement," practicing more and improving one's skill has nothing to do with one's ability to appreciate GCA.   

If you insist. But does not increasing the amount of tools in the tool box allow for the player to take advantage of more options?

How can one hit a Biarritz shot if they do not practice it?

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