Scioto

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I played a number of great courses in Columbus this weekend (Muirfield, TGC, Scarlet) but I can't tell you how impressed I was with Scioto.  I encountered a brilliant combination of wonderful people, superb service and a stellar course.

Some thoughts...

The first five holes have to be one of the strongest opening stretches of any course in the country.  Loved the tee shot on #2, the green on #3 (back right pin) and the approach on #5.

They are almost done completing the new stone work on the creek and it looks magnificent.

Ross inherited a wonderful piece of property, but he utilized it as well as any I have ever seen (on par w/ Merion).

The tree removal work done there (in consultation w/ Brad Klein) really has made a difference.  I missed my approach just to the left of #18 and got up and down for a satisfying par.  I was told by the member that it would have been dead if the trees had been there, quite a sever penalty for a shot that missed by only a few feet.  The tree removal seems to have enhanced the playability of the course, and I think Mr. Ross would approve.

I wish I could write more (and I will) but I am afraid that I have to return to reality and go back to work.  However, I'll take with me some great memories of all the courses I played this weekend.

p.s. - I'd love to see a comparison of Scioto and Merion, two courses now dear to my heart.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Geoffrey
You are absolutely right about Scito's first five. If you can get by them relatively unscathed you can post a good score. And alao agree that it is a great routing on relatively tight property, unfortunately that is about all that is left of Ross's work -  a great routing. Dick Wilson, Joe Lee and Von Hagge rebuilt every green, created new water features and rebunkered the entire golf course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

When did the alterations take place ?

Do you know what the members perception of their course was, that caused them to alter it so substantially.

Is there any current sentiment to restore the golf course to its original design ?

What is the scope of Brad Klein's involvement ?
Is he on the road to a complete restoration, or just some touch up work.

Brad Klein,

Could you supply an update on Scioto ?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
The changes occured in the early 60's and from what I understand the changes were an attempt to secure another US Open.  Unfortunately the changes did not succeed, although they did get the '68 US Am. I believe it would be nearly impossible to restore the course, the changes were far too drastic - completely new green complexes, new ponds were created, creek diverted and I'm not aware of any original green plans which I think would be required at this point(although they do have ross's original plan for the layout). I'm not sure what Brad is doing, perhaps the tree removal that Geoffrey spoke of.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I'll never understand how club's can substantially alter or destroy the original design integrity, on the HOPE of getting an OPEN or PGA.

I might be able to understand it if they were told,
do this, and you will definitely get the tournament, as some clubs feel the money, prestige and fallout will all be beneficial,
and perhaps the changes undone after the tournament, but to make drastic changes "on the come" is insane, especially for such a great course.

Brad Klein,

If you get a chance, an update would be appreciated.

[Brad Klein]

In Sept. 2000 I was asked by Scioto to visit the course and make some recommendations on tree management/removal, which I did. They largely complied with my suggestions, and when I came back (with the architects association) in May 2001 the place looked and played much better as a result.

The course still has its original Ross routing, though many bunkers, especially in the fairway, have since been revised or removed and the second half of the 8th hole was changed substantially in character . The greens were renovated by Dick Wilson, Bob von Hagge and Joe Lee in 1963, who raised the putting surfaces, flashed up the bunkers and also did that work on the 8th. Jack Nicklaus (and Bob Cupp) did some further light renovation on a few greens in the late-1980s.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad,

Perhaps your involvement is a first step in the right direction.

[John_McMillan]

My understanding of the '60s changes at Scioto is that they were done in anticipation of hosting another US Open, with some input from the USGA on what changes would be required for a successful bid.  One of the changes - relocating the 17'th green - was for maintenance / drainage reasons.  The others were to "toughen" the course for the Open.  I believe an issue at the time was the size of the greens - that the USGA felt they were too big for tournament play.  The changes were made, and the invitation never came.  I'm not sure what the "official" reason was from the USGA's perspective, but there was for many years bad blood between the course and the USGA.  Nicklaus distanced himself from the changes pretty quickly.  He's written that the process at Scioto - hiring two architects to renovate different nines - was never going to work.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

How was the Senior Open received by the club and competitors ?  

Were any changes made prior to the club hosting the Senior Open ?

[Tom Macwood (Guest)]

The course was well recieved - Gary Player said it was one of the two or three best/favorite courses in the world.  

If there were any changes they were minor.

[ian]

I've always been curious to what people's reaction would be to the course if it had been a Wilson origional. I enjoyed much of Wilson's work, but I also have no idea what the origional course looked like. I realize the routing is wonderful and belongs to Ross. If Brad or Tom (or someone else) could help me understand where the course was hurt most by the changes. I would appreciate the education.

[Tom Macwood (Guest)]

Ian
I think the course would be well recieved, but its strength is its routing. The problem is the formulaic bunkering in the fairways - out at around 250 yards - Ross's bunkering was more haphazard and interesting. And the greens especially, they were all elevated and surrounded by bunkers, all are very similar. The greens evidenently had some very excentric undualtions, the 5th was compared to the waves on the ocean - they are now relatively tame. Lee was given one nine to redesign and Von Hagge another. One nine features huge greens and the other moderate to small. They also created a pond in front of the 17th where Ross had a stream. The 8th was hole (par-5) in which serpantine stream started on the right side of the drive crossed diagonally to the left and then crossed back right infront of the green around the rightside and then around the back. They converted the stream into a large pond and the green is now an island in the pond. In my mind that hole was the biggest loss.

[jg7236]

I was born and raised in Ohio, I am a Buckeye for life.  I feel some of the best courses in my opinion are in Ohio, including Muirfield Village G.C./The Golf CLub/Scioto, etc.  The courses are very aestically pleasing and are routed out very well, not for the average golfer, but if one isn't, they sure can enjoy the course eventhough if they are playing bad.  Other great courses in Ohio are Caramago(did I spell that right) by Seth Raynor, Cook's Creek by John Cook, Yankee Trace by ?, many others but I don't have time to list all of them.

[ian]

Thanks Tom,

I wish I had you as a guide when I was there. I did not remember a difference in the greens (wow). I definately get your point on the bunkering and my photos made that clear. Eight always struck me as out of place and now I understand.

[BCowan]

You are absolutely right about Scito's first five. If you can get by them relatively unscathed you can post a good score. And alao agree that it is a great routing on relatively tight property, unfortunately that is about all that is left of Ross's work -  a great routing. Dick Wilson, Joe Lee and Von Hagge rebuilt every green, created new water features and rebunkered the entire golf course.

   Wow, i didn't realize that.  With some of the greens looking Ross and others looking non.  Does anyone know what greens were raised in the 60's? Was #1, #2, #3, #11, #15 raised too?   This is a great thread.