[Joel_Stewart]

#14 is a forgettable hole.  Everyone is looking forward to #15.  Driver or 3 wood and iron.  Not much to it unless you hit it long and right.

Joel,

Playing with Nick Price once and he opined that the 14th was the best hole on the course.

Bob

Amazing he would pick it???  Shows what I know.

I searched the internet briefly trying to find a picture and only found this.



I just don't see anything to the drive and the 2nd shot is slightly uphill to a fairly long green.  You can hit it short and get it up and down.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

Your paean to CPC reminds me of the time I had my first kiss. It was bliss, pure and simple. A beating heart and wobbly knees, sweaty palms and an incoherence in speech. I thought it would last forever...it didn't. Adam Clayman came up with the best antidote for such adulation, get yourself over to Pebble Beach and test your mettle on a grown up's course.

I am surprised at your affection for #4. For a strong player like you, I imagine that you had no more than an eight iron for your second shot.
The peril here is being above the hole and trying to keep the ball on the green and the enormous breaks in such small distances from the pin. You must admit, the hole is not scenic and could be just about anywhere.

Bob  

Bob,

You're probably right, but that being said I'm going to soak it all up as much as I can.

I don't believe I ever had anything more then a 9-iron to the hole.  But I never birdied it, or in fact came close.  The reason I like it so much is because of the green and the bunkering, neither of which could be found just about anywhere.  As a long hitter, I had to play left of the traps and thread the needle if I wanted to hit driver.  Otherwise it's an easy three wood.  But for players with less skill, the tee shot is so good.  It's 200 to carry the bunkers on the left, though it doesn't look it, and 265 to the bunkers on the right.  For most members, they had to hit it really well to get over the traps on the left.

But the green is incredible.  If you are left of the pin, when the pin is left, the putts actually break toward the back of the green.  Took me forever to figure that out.  There is no way someone could figure that out in just one or two plays.  Yet, the rest of the green is great too.  There is so much more movement then people think.  Putts can break eight or nine feet.  Back pins are fun because of the ridge that can be used to funnel the ball to the hole.  That green is incredible.

It's also the first hole to transition into the forest.  I love that.  The tall pines, the atristic bunkering, the movement in the fariway.  It's a serene hole.  And I love it.

I don't believe at all that the hole could be just about anywhere.  It may not be the most scenic, but it doesn't need to be.  It's just a really good golf hole.  And it really is my favorite on the course.

Cheers,
Jordan

[Tom Birkert]

This thread has brought back some wonderful memories from a couple of years ago.

My favourite hole - aside from the golf porn that is 15, 16 and 17 - would be the 5th. Some of the best bunkering I've seen on a golf course and a simply wonderful hole.

14 was also superb, the trees on that hole are creepy and the approach shot is very tricky too. The view from the tee is amazing and you need to be precise with both your tee shot and approach shot.

With regards to the best courses in the US, I would say that my list - of the ones that I've played - includes Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Shinnecock, Merion, Oakmont and NGLA.

There are other courses which I've played which I really enjoyed and are great in their own right, but just a tiny bit below, the likes of Pebble, Pinehurst and Bethpage. I don't know if I let the conditioning and pace of play at those courses influence my thinking, I need to reflect on that.

It sounds like a summer to remember though and I'm very jealous!

[C. Squier]

Jordan, I have nothing to add to the thread except.....Good for you and hope you had the time of your life.  Thanks for sharing, always fun to hear such cool things.

[Jordan Wall]

I can talk 14 too.

First off, it's a great golf hole.

Standing on the tee you feel one with the ocean, and it's a great feeling.  The tee shot needs to be down the left to have a view of the green.  Too far right and you're laying up.  But the second shot is tricky.  It plays a lot more uphill than it looks.  Always an extra club.

The bunkering, like the rest of the course, is really good and I love how they fit in the hillside.

The green has two tiers and a false front.  I find it one of the more difficult greens on the course.

Joel, I'm curious what you don't like about it.

[Jed Rammell]

Jordan,

Your paean to CPC reminds me of the time I had my first kiss. It was bliss, pure and simple. A beating heart and wobbly knees, sweaty palms and an incoherence in speech. I thought it would last forever...it didn't. Adam Clayman came up with the best antidote for such adulation, get yourself over to Pebble Beach and test your mettle on a grown up's course.

I am surprised at your affection for #4. For a strong player like you, I imagine that you had no more than an eight iron for your second shot.
The peril here is being above the hole and trying to keep the ball on the green and the enormous breaks in such small distances from the pin. You must admit, the hole is not scenic and could be just about anywhere.

Bob 

Bob - -

My first kiss was like Wolf Creek Golf Course . . . terrible, and I couldn't wait for it to end. Matt Ward calls it Thai food, I call it dog food.

[Bill_McBride]

  get yourself over to Pebble Beach and test your mettle on a grown up's course.

 
Bob  

I guess I'm a juvenile delinquent.


I was surprised like Bob about Jordan's affection for 4.

I absolutely LOVED #4.  I loved the way Mackenzie overlapped the fairway and greenside bunkers so that there appeared from the tee to be an ocean of sand out there in front of you although there's really lots of room.  I loved the way you entered the forest for the first time, with the shadows across the fairway and light filtering through.  I loved the half dozen deer looking at us without anxiety.  (Perhaps our tee shots weren't long enough to be of concern).   And I loved the sloping green that looked much flatter in the shadows, and the par putt I made when the caddy gave me a read of four feet left to right when I thought it was maybe 6"!

So I am a huge fan of #4 as well.  I thought maybe #3 was a pretty quiet hole in there, but it requires an accurate iron shot to an angled green.

One thing I didn't like too much was the right side bunker at #7.  Every ball that goes into that bunker is going to wind up all the way down at the bottom where is a narrow flat area next to the bunker edge.  There's really no reason to be down there as it is a very straightforward mid iron shot right after those two great par 5s at #5 and #6.  Like Jordan I really like that tee shot on #6 where you can hit a draw over the corner of the bunker - it's really not as far away as it looks!

[Mike Benham]

I've played everyone of those courses except Kiawah and Pinehurst ...

If you are having access issues at those two courses, I know people who can help you out ...

[Kyle Henderson]

I've played everyone of those courses except Kiawah and Pinehurst ...

If you are having access issues at those two courses, I know people who can help you out ...

If you're offering to have his greens fees comp'd, I am also in need of assistance.


Thanks for sharing your blissful tale, Jordan -- yet another morsel of information to ratchet my expectations through the stratosphere. I fear that if I ever play CPC myself I won't possibly be able to avoid disappointment.

[Patrick Kiser]

I haven't played any of these, but I would rather play Crystal Downs, NGLA and SFGC over ANGC. Possibly Fishers as well. But I'm a little weird when it comes to courses.

Something tells me you would NOT be the only weird one...


All,

I know we're getting into specific holes here, but it seems to me the big strengths of CPC or Pebble are the sequence and stretch of holes that are above and beyond what we would otherwise see elsewhere at a "good course".

Wouldn't you agree?


Jordan,

Did any sequence of holes surprise you and capture your interest more over time?

 

[Jordan Wall]

Patrick,

11 through 14 grew to be probably my favorite four hole stretch on the course.  It's right up there with 14 through 17.

The eleventh took a while to grow on me.  But, the green is so one of the best on the course.   I wish I had words to describe it, but it looks as if the back is several feet higher than the front.  In reality, the back edge of the green is even with the front.  Putts are so difficult to read.  It's genius.

The twelfth is a great hole where the green is benched in the dunes, where the entire holes flow around the big dune which is also to the right of nine.  It's 240 to carry the bunker on the right, and though it can be pretty easy to do, when the wind blows into your face it becomes a whole new story.  It's unique in it's design as the approach is actually better from the inside of the dogleg.  The farther left you go, the more of the greenside bunker you have to go over.  As such, it really places a premium on challenging that right bunker.
But, try pondering this.  Tom Fazio wants to build up a tee some fifty yards behind the current location.  Doing so would not only interrupt the flow of the golf course but it would look terrible and be the only contrived part of the golf course.  This would be a big mistake if this happened.  I can't remember if I got a picture but if I did I'll post it.  For those who have played CPC, the tee would be built up between the trees behind the tee, on the edge of the picnic grew. BLAH!

Thirteen is made by the green complex, which is fantastic.  I first thought the tee shot was pretty bland, but after more and more time on the course I understand what made it work.  There is a big ridge in the fairway that kicks all balls to the right.  However, the best angle into the green, by far, is from the left.  I hit what I thought was a perfect tee shot only to find it on the right side of the fairway, where the approach gets a lot tougher as the green is shallow and you have to go over a greenside bunker from that angle.  I loved the two tiered green.  From 90 yards out, on three seperate occasions, I never got close with my approach.  It puts a premium on precision.  The pictures of the green really speak for themselves.

I've already spoke of fourteen.  That stretch is so good.  I haven't seen many other great golf courses yet, but I could see this as being one of the best back nines in golf.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jordan my man... I am right with you 11-14... good lord what a fantastic stretch.  Each are tough, but not crazy tough... each can be done.. each requires great thought and care... and skill... each offers a world of possiblities...

But what's cool is damn near all players (or at least guests) are playing them in anticipation of what follows... the senses building to the incredible crescendo of experience that happens on 15-16-17.... but the more you play the course, the more you tend to realize that if your mind is on those holes, you are really missing the greatness of the prior ones... so the internal struggle is to focus on the task at hand, a very tough thing to do given what lies ahead.

Not to get back to Pebble, but that is part of its greatness too... series of golf holes that rise and fall, tearing at one's emotions... with all the while in the back of one's mind gnawing away is the fame and fortune to be found on the very famous two holes at the end....

TH

ps - earlier I cited 11 as the one hole I have come to love more and more over time... right on bruthah!

[Jordan Wall]

This is the only picture I have where you can see the green contours on 13.  I wish I had a better one, but I think this one is ok..

[Tom Huckaby]

That pic would be OK if the dorky guy would get out of the way.

 

13 is one the crazier greens, no?  That is, it's wild like 8.. bowl/tier/whatever.  Anything can happen and if you know that, it negatively effects the approach, and maybe even the tee shot.. would you say ignorance may be bliss on this hole?

[Anthony Gray]

  The bible says Rejoice with those that rejoice. Thanks for the thread Jordan and congrats.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

But Jordan, are you sure it was worth missing THE GRUDGE MATCH, and playing Palouse Ridge with me the next day?

[Tom Huckaby]

  The bible says Rejoice with those that rejoice. Thanks for the thread Jordan and congrats.

  Anthony

That is exceedingly wise.  If I came off as a prick earlier in this thread, well... it's just because I know Jordan a little and it was more friendly shit-giving than anything else, and perhaps some envy!  But yes, in the end, pure rejoicing with him might have been better.  That's just not as much fun.

 

So Jordan, I apologize, my man.  But the questions are real... I do remain curious for your thoughts on 13... and also, at some point please do try to stretch a bit and see if there is one hole that did lessen over time for you.  I know it seems impossible right now... but someone forced me to do that about the course I continue to crazily love - Sand Hills - and the exercise of doing it if anything made me think about the course more deeply... and in the end just increased the overall love.

BTW for anyone curious, the hole I came up with at Sand Hills was 15.

TH

[Jordan Wall]

Anthony,

Thank you.

Garland,

Funny thing is, I've been in Pullman for a few days and was just a few minutes from Walla Walla on the day of the grudge match.  I rarely know what I'm doing with regards to my schedule.  In any case I'm glad you went forward with the grudge match and hearing all about it.

Tom,

I don't know if I would call the thirteenth green one of the wildest.  Maybe one of the toughest.  I don't know.  It could be but it just doesn't pop into my head as wild.  I think four, five, eight, nine, and eighteen are all more wild then thirteen.  But for the shot you're hitting into thirteen, the green works perfectly.  I do agree to a point that ignorance is bliss when playing this hole.  Of course if one is paying attention they should see the green opens up from the left when standing on the second tee.

The best way to describe it would just be that I absolutely love the green.  It borders on wild, perhaps, but there are definitely crazier and tougher greens on the course.  However, for how it works with the hole, it's a perfect green.

I don't mind saying the first hole never really did a whole lot for me.  That green is so good though, and I love how the wide fairway is inviting for the first tee shot.  Also the fact that you want to hit it over the right side of the trees off the tee, which is hard to believe.  But when it comes down to it, I think if one hole never really grew on me, it would have been that one (except when I birdied it my first round out there!).  That being said, it didn't ever appeal less to me over time.  It just never really stood out or, as mentioned, grew on me.

And I like seven, the hole you mention as not being as good, or whatever you feel like calling it.  If you want to talk about ignorance being bliss, it's on this hole as that green is so tiny.  That definitely got more intimidating my second time seeing it.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Garland,

Funny thing is, I've been in Pullman for a few days and was just a few minutes from Walla Walla on the day of the grudge match.  I rarely know what I'm doing with regards to my schedule.  In any case I'm glad you went forward with the grudge match and hearing all about it.

...

I see then! You were just avoiding me when you told me you would still be in California when I made the invite. No more hugs for you!
 

[Jed Peters]

13 is one the crazier greens, no?

Who knows/cares?

What you do is skull your third over the green above it, then lob it to 3 inches for bogie.

[Tom Huckaby]

Good stuff, Jordan.

Keep thinking about it over time.. it's fun.  And remember the point isn't that any of these holes are necessarily lesser in quality - it's more which did you come to like less over time.  That is, the more you saw the less great they became, for you.  It was indeed 7 for me (not that it isn't tough - it sure is - but it just became pretty one-dimensional and I agree with Bill that the right bunker is problematic in that everything funnels to the bottom).  

Sounds like 1 works for you.

But anyway good calls re all of this.

BTW... last time there for me I quite accidentally hit it right of the trees on 1... onto driving range... and it was amazing the FANTASTIC roll one gets from there... man I got about 50 yards closer to the green than I ever had going left or straight. And it's not like the angle in is horrid over there... especially when even a piddly hitter like me can get to PW distance in... great call, great wisdom, hell yes over trees (or right of trees if one cannot do that) is the best line for that hole.



TH

ps Jed - yes, that is the optimal play.   

[Bill_McBride]

What really makes the 13th green is the ridge in the left center from front to back.  It's not easy to see but must be dealt with.

I learned this the hard way my second round at CPC.  The hole was apparently cut just left of the ridge, my caddy pointed this out but I guess I didn't really get what he was saying.  My putt broke about three feet to the right when I thought it was pretty straight.  Ouch.  

I think the tee shot at #13, across the sandy berm, is one of the most interesting on the course.  The second hole tee shot is off to the left, so that's definitely an "area of interest!"  I agree with somebody above (Jordan?) who really likes that tee shot at #2.

[Bob_Huntley]

Jordan,

Are you telling us that there is the thought of leting Fazio loose on the course? Heaven forbid.

Bob

[Bill_McBride]

Jordan,

Are you telling us that there is the thought of leting Fazio loose on the course? Heaven forbid.

Bob

Agreed.   

[David Stamm]

I had heard about this some time ago. You guys know where I stand on this. Is there some throat clearing I hear coming from Bellagio Rd?

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