[Tom Huckaby]

Jordan:

Apologies for hardassedness, but that too is a copout.  EVERYONE (except me that is) bitches about 18.  That is way too obvious.  Come on man, not every hole there is perfect, and some must get lesser in one's eyes over time.  I gave you one (and remember I love CPC damn near as much as you seem to - we just got off on the wrong foot when you decided to knock PB in an attempt to praise CPC).   

Just remember too, the question isn't what hole is not great, the question is really did any of them lessen over time, in your eyes.

I gave you 7.  You really have NO HOLES that you liked less over time?  They all just got better and better?

And people say I like everything.....

 

[Brad Swanson]

Jordan,
   How does it feel to know that you've peaked in your golfing life before you reach drinking age?  Are you ready to deal with a lifetime of first tee disappointment knowing that nothing is going to compare to your summer at CPC?  Have a good one!

Cheers,
Brad

[Joel_Stewart]

It would be 18.  Its the only hole not truly great on the course in my eyes.  Actually, the first hole isn't out of this world either but I love the green benched into the dune and the tee shot.

#1 and #18 scare me.  You can easily make a big number on both of those holes.   If the greens are fast and you're above the hole, forget it, you're lucky to 3 putt.

#14 is a forgettable hole.  Everyone is looking forward to #15.  Driver or 3 wood and iron.  Not much to it unless you hit it long and right.

[Tom Huckaby]

Wow..... I want to live in a world where #14 at CPC is a forgettable hole.  Oh I don't know, ocean off to one's right, rather dominating the view... a very tough tee shot that has to be hit far enough to allow for clear 2nd shot, but not too far so as to find the far side trees.. then if one succeeds, a long second shot damn near always into the wind, to a green that falls off hard to the right, with one of the world's more incredible trees to the left, as well as a very difficult bunker....

Am I missing much, Jordan?

Man I love 14.  In fact I'd put it as one of my favorite holes on that course... forgettable?  Perhaps only if one only plays Pine Valley every other day of his golf life.

 

[Jed Peters]

Wow..... I want to live in a world where #14 at CPC is a forgettable hole.  Oh I don't know, ocean off to one's right, rather dominating the view... a very tough tee shot that has to be hit far enough to allow for clear 2nd shot, but not too far so as to find the far side trees.. then if one succeeds, a long second shot damn near always into the wind, to a green that falls off hard to the right, with one of the world's more incredible trees to the left, as well as a very difficult bunker....

4 wood, 4 iron to green.

2 putts.

Easy hole.

next?

HA!

[Tom Huckaby]

You are exempt from this, Jed.  9 and 10 are blah in your world also.  But 1 is absolute murder.

 

[David Stamm]

I'm with Hucks. 14 is one of favorites there. Amazing, amazing hole.


Listen, I love Pebble as much as anyone. Comparing these two titans is straining at gnats. I prefer CPC, but Pebble is very special to me. I do think PB has more "weak holes" (for lack of a better term) than CPC, but that's just my opinion.

[Bob_Huntley]

It would be 18.  Its the only hole not truly great on the course in my eyes.  Actually, the first hole isn't out of this world either but I love the green benched into the dune and the tee shot.

#14 is a forgettable hole.  Everyone is looking forward to #15.  Driver or 3 wood and iron.  Not much to it unless you hit it long and right.

Joel,

Playing with Nick Price once and he opined that the 14th was the best hole on the course.

Bob

[Joel_Stewart]

Sand Hills
NGLA
Pine Valley
Augusta
Shinnecock
Cypress Point
Pebble Beach
Merion
Oakmont

Seminole
Pinehurst #2
Winged Foot West
Crystal Downs
Pacific Dunes
Fishers Island
Prairie Dunes
Olympic Lake
SFGC
LA North
Kiawah Ocean

That's enough. 

Let me put it this way.  Name one club on the bottom that you would like to be a member at over any of the clubs on the top list.   Name 1 club on the bottom you would play in the member - guest over any of the clubs on the top list.  

Those bottom clubs are great - great clubs but they don't compare with the top list.  I've played everyone of those courses except Kiawah and Pinehurst and they can't hold a candle to Pine Valley or others.  

LA North, very funny.  Its barely in the top 10 in California.

[Jed Peters]

You are exempt from this, Jed.  9 and 10 are blah in your world also.  But 1 is absolute murder.

 

Nah, only made bogie there through 4.

then went even through 15.

Then went like 37 over on that one hole where YOU said "hit the 4 wood, oh that's GONNA WORK" (I have video)

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan:


I gave you 7.  You really have NO HOLES that you liked less over time?  They all just got better and better?

Tom, yes.

[Sean_A]

Aha!  A challenge!  Well remember I am already at least one up given the cut-off was initially supposed to be 7 or 8.  SO, playing with a little house money, let's go like this after those mentioned:

Sand Hills
NGLA
Pine Valley
Augusta
Shinnecock
Cypress Point
Pebble Beach
Merion
Oakmont

Seminole
Pinehurst #2
Winged Foot West
Crystal Downs
Pacific Dunes
Fishers Island
Prairie Dunes
Olympic Lake
SFGC
LA North
Kiawah Ocean

That's enough.  I'd say all of those are at least in the same ballpark as the top 9.. or at least I do not see a huge drop off.  I expect you to disagree... but well... you'll be wrong.

 

Jordan

Its good to see you taking advantage of the opportunities that come your way!  Well done.

AwsHuckster

I have played Pinehurst and Kiawah.  They really aren't in the class of Merion.  

Ciao

[Jed Peters]

Joel,

Playing with Nick Price once and he opined that the 14th was the best hole on the course.

Bob

What's that hack know?

[Tom Huckaby]

I doubt anyone would deny Pebble Beach has more "weak" golf holes than any very top level course.
It also tends to have more crazily great ones, and when one considers the whole, matches up quite well with any course.

Or at least I think so.

But back to Cypress... I really do want Jordan to name a hole that he liked less over time.  One simply must exist.



Joel:

Where I would want to be a member is a very very different question.  You asked for courses more or less in the same league with your top 7-8 (then expanded to 9).  I feel quite comfortable with those I named.  You disagree, as expected.  Thus we can move on.  If you really believe that courses like Kiawah Ocean can't hold a candle to those in your top 9, then we see things so differently as to make the expectation for common ground foolhardy.  And that is just fine.  So move on we shall.


Sean - this was very quick, off the top of my head.  I can buy Merion is superior to those.  I just can't buy it's in a totally different league, as I understand that phrase.  They are all great, all close enough.  Perhaps they are one star apart as you like to do this.  Hell I don't know.  I just don't see the immediate large drop off after 7/8-9, which is really what I disputed from Joel - not that #20 is as good as #5.  Just that there isn't this fall off the cliff he maintains.  And I stand by that.



Jordan - that is disappointing in a way.  I think you need to think about this a bit more.  We'll talk again in a year or so when the honeymoon is over.



Jed - sure, blame me you spineless worm.  You know what you need to hit, why ask me given I've seen you play for 15 holes at that point?  How the hell was I to know you tend to balloon 4woods?
 

[Bob_Huntley]

Jordan,

Your paean to CPC reminds me of the time I had my first kiss. It was bliss, pure and simple. A beating heart and wobbly knees, sweaty palms and an incoherence in speech. I thought it would last forever...it didn't. Adam Clayman came up with the best antidote for such adulation, get yourself over to Pebble Beach and test your mettle on a grown up's course.

I am surprised at your affection for #4. For a strong player like you, I imagine that you had no more than an eight iron for your second shot.
The peril here is being above the hole and trying to keep the ball on the green and the enormous breaks in such small distances from the pin. You must admit, the hole is not scenic and could be just about anywhere.

Bob  

[David Stamm]

Sand Hills
NGLA
Pine Valley
Augusta
Shinnecock
Cypress Point
Pebble Beach
Merion
Oakmont

Seminole
Pinehurst #2
Winged Foot West
Crystal Downs
Pacific Dunes
Fishers Island
Prairie Dunes
Olympic Lake
SFGC
LA North
Kiawah Ocean

That's enough. 

Let me put it this way.  Name one club on the bottom that you would like to be a member at over any of the clubs on the top list.   Name 1 club on the bottom you would play in the member - guest over any of the clubs on the top list.  

Those bottom clubs are great - great clubs but they don't compare with the top list.  I've played everyone of those courses except Kiawah and Pinehurst and they can't hold a candle to Pine Valley or others.  

LA North, very funny.  Its barely in the top 10 in California.

I haven't played any of these, but I would rather play Crystal Downs, NGLA and SFGC over ANGC. Possibly Fishers as well. But I'm a little weird when it comes to courses.


9 courses better than LA North in California? Hmm. CPC, Riviera, Valley Club, Pasa, SFGC and......?

[David Stamm]

  get yourself over to Pebble Beach and test your mettle on a grown up's course.

 
Bob  

I guess I'm a juvenile delinquent.


I was surprised like Bob about Jordan's affection for 4.

[Sean_A]

I doubt anyone would deny Pebble Beach has more "weak" golf holes than any very top level course.
It also tends to have more crazily great ones, and when one considers the whole, matches up quite well with any course.

Or at least I think so.

But back to Cypress... I really do want Jordan to name a hole that he liked less over time.  One simply must exist.



Joel:

Where I would want to be a member is a very very different question.  You asked for courses more or less in the same league with your top 7-8 (then expanded to 9).  I feel quite comfortable with those I named.  You disagree, as expected.  Thus we can move on.  If you really believe that courses like Kiawah Ocean can't hold a candle to those in your top 9, then we see things so differently as to make the expectation for common ground foolhardy.  And that is just fine.  So move on we shall.


Sean - this was very quick, off the top of my head.  I can buy Merion is superior to those.  I just can't buy it's in a totally different league, as I understand that phrase.  They are all great, all close enough.  Perhaps they are one star apart as you like to do this.  Hell I don't know.  I just don't see the immediate large drop off after 7/8-9, which is really what I disputed from Joel - not that #20 is as good as #5.  Just that there isn't this fall off the cliff he maintains.  And I stand by that.



Jordan - that is disappointing in a way.  I think you need to think about this a bit more.  We'll talk again in a year or so when the honeymoon is over.



Jed - sure, blame me you spineless worm.  You know what you need to hit, why ask me given I've seen you play for 15 holes at that point?  How the hell was I to know you tend to balloon 4woods?
 

Huckabilly

I have no idea of the cutoff number for the truly great among greats.  I suspect that issue depends on what one is looking for in the game.  That said, the top list does have superior sounding ring to it - which isn't surprising since its a cherry picked list of some great and iconic championship courses and others of significant architectural history or importance.  

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

Oh I don't know... I find 4 to be a pretty damn good hole also.  Yes one CAN get to where one has an 8 iron in... but the bunkers are rather artfully placed such that that requires a pretty darn thoughtfully and skillfully played drive.  Then even with that 8iron in hand, the fun doesn't stop, as it's a very diabolical green.  I shall never poo-pooh that golf hole and it also doesn't surprise me Jordan cites it as a surprisingly good hole, as it is rarely discussed.

But Bob's post is wise of course regarding the relationship of CPC to Pebble... and funny I said Jordan needs to get over the honeymoon, Bob says his first kiss.  Not sure what this really says about either of us.

 


Sean - of course the ones at the top are superior, for the reasons you stated... the question remains are they in a different league, so to speak.  Joel says yes, I say no.  You may fall in where you wish.

[David Stamm]

Oh I don't know... I find 4 to be a pretty damn good hole also.  Yes one CAN get to where one has an 8 iron in... but the bunkers are rather artfully placed such that that requires a pretty darn thoughtfully and skillfully played drive.  Then even with that 8iron in hand, the fun doesn't stop, as it's a very diabolical green.  I shall never poo-pooh that golf hole and it also doesn't surprise me Jordan cites it as a surprisingly good hole, as it is rarely discussed.

 

I don't disagree with your assesment of 4, but I found it surprising that Jordan cited it as his FAVORITE on the whole course. I have never heard anyone claim 4 as such. I think it's refreshing actually.

[Tom Huckaby]

I am giving him the benefit of the doubt, or license to exaggerate.  I asked him for a hole that surprised him in a positive way, and/or one that he grew to love more over time.  To that he cited 4.  And it works great for that.

Now if he does really mean that 4 is his favorite hole on the entire course, he has gone off his rocker and that is not refreshing in any way shape or form.

 

[Sean_A]

Oh I don't know... I find 4 to be a pretty damn good hole also.  Yes one CAN get to where one has an 8 iron in... but the bunkers are rather artfully placed such that that requires a pretty darn thoughtfully and skillfully played drive.  Then even with that 8iron in hand, the fun doesn't stop, as it's a very diabolical green.  I shall never poo-pooh that golf hole and it also doesn't surprise me Jordan cites it as a surprisingly good hole, as it is rarely discussed.

But Bob's post is wise of course regarding the relationship of CPC to Pebble... and funny I said Jordan needs to get over the honeymoon, Bob says his first kiss.  Not sure what this really says about either of us.

 


Sean - of course the ones at the top are superior, for the reasons you stated... the question remains are they in a different league, so to speak.  Joel says yes, I say no.  You may fall in where you wish.

AwsHuckster

You will notice I wrote "superior sounding ring".  I have no idea which courses actually are better other than to say I have not seen a better course than Merion. I am not terribly enamoured with championship courses so I could see myself falling for very different courses than either list and Old Town is an example of ths. It just so happens that Merion is one of the few greats which is a championship course and yet so wonderfully varied and playable for all that it is hard to imagine as a championship course.  I would love to see first hand how the flat bellies play the course.  I haven't seen its equal in the States, not even close.

Anyway, I am envious of Jordan! 

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean.  Fair enough, we are getting nowhere.

I have not seen a better course than Sand Hills, but I would not say it's "head and shoulders above" or "in a different league from" the others on that list, nor that those "can't hold a candle to" Sand Hills.  And that is what I am disputing with Joel. 

In any case my personal preferences tend to align with yours in this manner... I tend to like courses that can be BOTH sporty fun for all and hold championships.  Apparently Merion is one.  There are very few others.  But again, that's not what I am trying to get at here.  I was just trying to dispute Joel's notion that there are 7 or 8 truly great courses and then it's a steep drop off to all the rest.  If you believe that, it is just fine.  I don't.

TH

[Ben Sims]

Sand Hills
NGLA
Pine Valley
Augusta
Shinnecock
Cypress Point
Pebble Beach
Merion
Oakmont

Seminole
Pinehurst #2
Winged Foot West
Crystal Downs
Pacific Dunes
Fishers Island
Prairie Dunes
Olympic Lake
SFGC
LA North
Kiawah Ocean

That's enough. 

Let me put it this way.  Name one club on the bottom that you would like to be a member at over any of the clubs on the top list.   Name 1 club on the bottom you would play in the member - guest over any of the clubs on the top list.  

Those bottom clubs are great - great clubs but they don't compare with the top list.  I've played everyone of those courses except Kiawah and Pinehurst and they can't hold a candle to Pine Valley or others.  

LA North, very funny.  Its barely in the top 10 in California.

Wow Joel.  Some big statements up there.  I would think that Pac Dunes compares favorably to Pebble.

As for memberships and member-guests.  I would much rather be a member or even play at SFGC or Crystal before Oakmont, based on what I've read and researched of course.

Of course I agree about Pine Valley, NGLA  and Cypress.  Oddly enough though, I would only put those three courses in the 10++ range that we seem to be talking about.  I would put all the rest of that top list down on the lower.  I am a firm believer that those three courses are head and shoulders above the rest.

[David Stamm]

I am giving him the benefit of the doubt, or license to exaggerate.  I asked him for a hole that surprised him in a positive way, and/or one that he grew to love more over time.  To that he cited 4.  And it works great for that.

Now if he does really mean that 4 is his favorite hole on the entire course, he has gone off his rocker and that is not refreshing in any way shape or form.

 

It's his honesty I find refreshing. If he really means that, I think that's his prerogative. Like you, I don't agree with it either, but I think it's neat that he cited something unusual as his favorite instead of the boring 9th, 12-14, 15-17 same ol, same ol.

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