[Kevin Pallier]

What are your favourite courses from each “Modern” architect ?

Why are they your favourite ?

Being based in Australia I'd be keen to understand why their designs so revered in America ? and worth a special trip to try and see ?

[Adam Clayman]

Sand Hills for the way it makes you feel. Bandon Trails for it's artistry. Ballyneal for it's feedom, unlimited variety,and the  adherence to core principals all stemming from the feedom given to Tom by the principles.

[Kevin Pallier]

Adam

Could you possibly expand your thoughts on Bandon and Ballyneal ?

If given the choice to play but one of these - which would you choose ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kevin,

I really hate to jump into this discussion but I will offer this.

For my money, Sand Hills is the best of the lot. I have little (or a lot less) desire to play Dismal River, Sutton Bay, Ballyneal, etc. over the "original."

I am trying to figure out if its because its the first of its kind and I think of the others as "wannabes" or duplicates to a certain degree, or if its because somehow, C+C were a bit less self conscious when designing that because there were no courses similar to "live up to."  I like it even better than any of the Bandon Courses, because I sense it just flows better, whereas at Bandon, I sense an effort to create nuanced little features aimed at greatness, while Sand Hills seems very natural and in ways, unpretentious but is great anyway.

Its a good question you ask, if for no other reason than I never tried to articulate these feellings before.  Frankly, its pre-coffee on a Saturday morning where I had hoped to sleep in late and I am not sure I have expressed them accurately.  But, for better or worse, there is my comparisons of a top C+C course to others.

[Mike Wagner]

Kevin,

My answer would be.....which ones would I NOT want to play??

Between Bandon and Ballyneal, well, they're different experiences.  They're both incredible, provide massive options.  One has the ocean, and one feels like you're on the moon.  Both awesome!!

[Tim Bert]

Kevin - I have a limited education on each of the architects mentioned here - I've only played 2 courses by C&C and I've only played 3 by Doak (4 if you count Sheep Ranch and that number will be 5 next year when I get back to Bandon to see Old Mac.)

I'll jump in and offer thoughts on Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills, and Ballyneal, which are the three I've played that would warrant extensive travel and study in my opinion.  These three courses are all in my personal top 5 (fair amount of US travel golf, but haven't played overseas yet.)

I have them shuffled a bit differently than Jeff.  I prefer Pacific Dunes to the other two, but let me state we are splitting hairs by trying to rank all three which are fabulous.  Pacific Dunes is probably helped by the fact that it was the first course I ever played that COMPLETELY blew me out of the water (I played the other two years later.)  I am also much more familiar with the course after three return visits and multiple plays each time.  All in all, I've played the course 9 full times with my own ball, 1 time alternate shot, and 1 time just sort of walking around the property in the evening hitting a ball when I felt like it.  I can't add much additional commentary to what has already been stated on the Fan's Photo Tribute to Pacific Dunes thread.

As for Sand Hills and Ballyneal, I could probably go back and forth and be swayed either way on my favorite here, but for the past year or so I've leaned toward Ballyneal.  I think Ballyneal has the better set of par 3s.  Sand Hills wins on the par 5s in my mind, but only by a touch and only because Sand Hills has 3 of the greatest par 5s in the planet.  In my mind, the par 3s at Ballyneal put more distance between themselves and the ones at Sand Hills - only the 17th at Sand Hills is in the league with those at Ballyneal in my opinion.  The par 4s at both courses are outstanding, but I'll take the short 7th at Ballyneal over either the 7th or 8th at Sand Hills.  Sand Hills is more breathtaking when you first see the course because the entire thing is in view, down below from the point you cross over the ridge.  Ballyneal on the other hand reveals itself in pieces, so it appears less magnificent as a whole but the individual holes keep thrilling.

I don't view Sand Hills as the original and Ballyneal a duplicate or a wannabe.  The terrain is similar in ways and different in others and the courses are very different.  Calling Ballyneal a duplicate is sort of like calling every links course in Scotland a duplicate.  If anything, I think it is the business model more than the course which is a duplicate.  Mr. O'Neal might not have ever taken the plunge if Sand Hills had not proved to be a success.  Let's all thank our lucky stars he moved forward and contacted Mr. Doak to do the work.  C&C and Doak both used the given terrain to its fullest, and whichever you'd prefer you'd be better offer playing both of them than 99% of the golf courses in this country.

Those are just some more early morning Saturday thoughts, so take them for what you will.

[Jim Colton]

I'd flip-flop Pac Dunes and Ballyneal, but I pretty much agree with everything Tim Bert (as with most things, except for his evaluation on Blackwolf Run).

The only other Doak I've played is the one in Myrtle Beach, and I've played both the Talking Stick courses. 

[Kevin Pallier]

Gentlemen

Thanks for your responses - I appreciate the education on same. You all seem to be touching on the visual side of things ? I that a correct interpretation ? 

Is there a difference in their US design styles in comparison to others like a Fazio / Dye / Trent Jones etc ?

[Tim Bert]

Kevin

My comparison regarding the par 3s and par 5s and short par 4s wasn't intended as a visual compairon.

I also find the greens at Ballyneal to be much more wild than Sand Hills. .

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

I probably would not argue with you that Sand Hills is "less self conscious" because so little artificial contouring had to be done at all.  By my count there were 12-13 greens at Sand Hills where they didn't have to contour anything at all.  I haven't had a dozen of those in my whole career, and I try pretty hard to find them.

However, I would quibble with your description of Pacific Dunes having "nuanced little features" that we created.  Care to name one or two to see if they are created or natural?

[David Kelly]

Being based in Australia I'd be keen to understand why their designs so revered in America ? and worth a special trip to try and see ?

Kevin,

Being in Australia have you played Barnbougle Dunes and if so what did you think?

[Peter Pallotta]

Sand Hills for the way it makes you feel. Bandon Trails for it's artistry. Ballyneal for it's feedom, unlimited variety,and the  adherence to core principals all stemming from the feedom given to Tom by the principles.

Adam - could you expand on this? A shame to ask - it is classic Adam, and I think I know  what you mean, but at the same time a thought occured to me: i.e. that when artistry is applied, principles engender freedom and variety, and those elements together in turn call forth the golfer's fullest participation, which is essentially the best of all feelings on a golf courses. (Do you see what I'm asking?)
Thanks
Peter  

[Adam Clayman]

Kevin, Peter. I could try to expand on that, but, it ain't my strong suit. 

Sand Hills makes you feel awesome because the experience mimics the scale of the place, grand.
Bandon Trails art stems from it's adherence to nature, without a single feature jarring to the eye, and, it's eloquent routing.

I'd choose to play Ballyneal based on everything I have learned reading, seen, felt and experienced. Mostly for the wide range of shots available. Every shot is only limited by one's awareness and imagination. Everyday a different nuance. Every hole (and shot) has multiple ways of playing it and to be played. The wind, firm conditions on great ground, with great contours, make it the best of the lot that I know of.

Tim, I'm not sure Jeff has seen all of them. To me his post implied he has no desire to go and see them because they are all duplicates. On that there's no argument, if it's his opinion. From what I've gathered over the years, he knows the subject well.

[Ben Sims]

The more I think about the courses I've played by each designer, the more I've decided that I haven't seen nearly enough.  I feel that to fully appreciate the C&C lineup, I would need to see more than just WeKoPa Saguaro and Bandon Trails.  I feel that it would come down to Sand Hills or Friars Head for me, if I get to see them

It's funny though, I only seen 6 of Renaissance's courses, and I feel like I can comment on those.  As Wyatt Halliday and I were headed down to Newport Dunes today on the Texas coast, I told him that if someone said I could only play one more round of golf ever--of the courses I've played--I'd say Pac Dunes.  But if someone told me that I could only play one more course for the rest of my life, I'd choose Ballyneal.  Pac is ethereal in that sense.  Whereas there is something very earthly about Ballyneal that would keep me interested for life. 

That said, Old Mac may take the "earthly" title once complete.  Another reason to quit flying and become a caddie.

[Kevin Pallier]

Being based in Australia I'd be keen to understand why their designs so revered in America ? and worth a special trip to try and see ?

Kevin,

Being in Australia have you played Barnbougle Dunes and if so what did you think?

Hi David

I have and as a collaborative work between Doak / Clayton course I was impressed. The P3's and short P4's were the highlight for mine. The only "sole" Doak stamped course I've played is St. Andrews Beach. Unfortunatley it is no longer open as it's close to the best course on the Mornington Peninsula.

I believe you may have played both in your sojourn down under ? How do they compare to other Doak courses you've seen ?

[JC Jones]

Jeff:

However, I would quibble with your description of Pacific Dunes having "nuanced little features" that we created.  Care to name one or two to see if they are created or natural?

Haven't we done something similar to this before?  I vaguely remember everyone being completely wrong except for a kid from Ireland who had never seen the course

Either way, it did yield the hope of a "Making of Pac Dunes" book once again so, to that end, I say that Jeff gives this a shot!

[Kyle Henderson]

I will join Adam in placing Ballyneal at the top of this small list. It simply presents the most variety, by my reckoning. I find myself contantly engaged because every shot can be played a number of ways. One can take the shortest line, or play to a flatter spot, or hit less club to take trouble out of play (etc., etc.) on just about every shot from tee to green. The greens themselves offer even more options for playing recovery shots (off a side board, bump and run, soft pitch, play past the hole and let a slope bring it back). Many times it is possible to make a putt using several different lines from point A to point B. Different pin positions can change one's strategy entirely, as can wind conditions.

With that being said Ballyneal, Sand Hills, Bandon Trails, and Pacific Dunes comprise the absolute best courses I've ever played, so the degree of preference is small.

[Greg Clark]

Ben,

I hope we get a report on Newport Dunes.

[Ben Sims]

Greg,

I don't have any pictures of the course and I am reluctant to review it based on my poor performance and complete lack of ball striking prowess. Mr. Wyatt Halliday handed me an ass whooping, I paid for his fajitas.   I'll throw in a few nuggets here--trying not to jack the thread--and if it interests some others, I'll write a new thread. 

--I thought it was a pedestrian layout on an otherwise above average site.  It's clear that land lines and future homesite development hindered what could have been a much better routing.  That said, the back nine is much better than the front, and even has a stretch of holes (12-15) that I would rate as the best 4 hole stretch I've played in South Texas.

--Typical Palmer greens.  Big man made contour features right up next to the green, then they just stop.  It's like someone set a floating plate on an ocean....weird. 

--Course plays MUCH narrower than it appears.  Plenty of roll in the grass, but the fairways just trail off in places that leave you wondering if the associates and shapers even considered the concept of a landing area.

--Only six or seven holes play "linksy".  The rest play like any other Palmer course.

--Best conditioned course I've seen in South Texas--that includes some big names down here.  The papsalum made a great surface.  The greens rolled very well.

All in all, it was worth the 80 bucks I paid.  The downside was a marshall that cared more about mango scented ice towels than policing the excruciatingly slow play.  I felt that the site had so much more potential in it.  The noted stretch of holes was fun, but not enough to make up for the poor routing and contrived elements of 2/3's of the course.  It's worth a play if you live in the area, or are in need of some seafood on a daytrip from San Antonio.  I'll give it a 4 on the Doak scale.

[Jim Nugent]

Kevin, Peter. I could try to expand on that, but, it ain't my strong suit. 

Not your strong suit???

I must differ, as your full post (most of which I cut out) proved again. 

[Greg Clark]

Ben,

Thanks for the report.  I was hoping to eventually hear from someone that had played it.  Disappointing to hear that in your view much of the course is pedestrian.  Sounds like an opportunity missed.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Tough to choose between Sand Hills and Ballyneal.
I hate to fit into everbody else's opinions and would like to be able to offer another option, but these two stand head and shoulders above any others I have played.
I would love to compare to several in the Austalasia area but have not yet had the pleasure.

I think I have to give a slight nod in the direction of Sand Hills, purley from a apersonal perspective that I find the greens more playable.
I accept what Tom said about the natural setting of the greens at Sand Hills and that is very valid point, howeevr it apperas that C and C made very little attempt at all to change that contour which they could easily have done.

I love Doak greens if there is such a thing, but some at Ballyneal I felt were just a little too svere, leaving one totally out of play when you have hit a marginal shot.
If I hit a poor shot , I expect to be out position, but on occasion at Ballyneal I felt the punishment did not fit the crime..
That did not alter my opinion of the course as being a masterpiece, or the enjoyment I had playing....perhaps even made it more enjoyable as I tried to recover from, the postion I found myself.

Both places are in idylic surroundings the quietness is what had the biggest impact on me.
The fact that you can play 54 holes in a day, without waiting, no real teetimes...both are a golfers paradise...both deserving of the top two spots on my list.

When I see the likes of Whistling Straits with all of its manufactured overstatement near the top of any list it just makes me wonder if these people really get it at all!!!

[Kevin Pallier]

Michael

Could you expand your last statement at Whistling Straits for me ? I've only ever seen pictures of it and it's hard to grasp the scale of of them in context.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

To coin an overued comment...limks golf on steroids...
everything gives the impression that it is overdone...too busy to the eye, too many"bunkers"
It is though they tried too hard to get that natural , rugged look that it ends up being even more man made looking.
Simply too much going on all over the place.
I am in the minority though, as it is lawys rated so highly....personally I really dont see it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Isn't "Whistling Straights" San Fran's least popular bar band?

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