Old White at Greenbrier to Host PGA Tour Event

[Wade Whitehead]

Among other things, whatever the best starting hole on the PGA Tour will slide to second place once the Old White enters next year.

WW

[Wayne_Kozun]

Wayne,

Obviously the PGA Tour did not agree with your assessment on dates.  Maybe tha dates change in the future to accomodate the Canadian.  Don't forget, the Greenbrier was a regular professional stop from 1948 to 1961 so it deserves consideration.  Personally, I don't agree with you, but your point is valid and has been discussed.

But the Canadian Open has been around since 1904, although it hasn't been a tour stop (obviously) that long and is the third oldest national championship in the world (assuming that you count The Open Championship as national) and has been won by many of the games greats including Snead, Palmer, Locke, Hagen, Armour, Nelson, etc - can The Greenbrier say the same?

But it is currently screwed by the horrible date - the week after The Open Championship when most good golfers are taking a week off.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I was very impressed with the restoration of Old White.  As for the course holding up for a PGA tour event in August, it will be very interesting.  I am pretty certain that the greens would be an excellent challenge if they are able to achieve the firmness that Westchester used to achieve.
   As for the finish, it is absolutely the opposite of a Merion or Carnoustie--the course ends with 3 absolute birdie holes.  I really wonder if they will have the balls to play 17 as a long par 4 of 480 yards, because as a par 5, it is of no challenge for a top level player, let alone, a PGA tour level player.  I really like the 18th, but having Short as the final hole for tournament play could be problematic.

[Tim Gavrich]

I can't wait to see who the whiners are when they encounter the thumbprint on the last hole.  I hope they put the pin in front on Sunday; imagine a tournament-winning hole in one!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here's an old photo thread of OW taken during the restoration, with commentary on it by Lester:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,15897.msg274146/

[Greg Tallman]

I just got back from Playing Old White this weekend.  I also played in in the WV Am prior to the restoration.  Gregg I would respectfully say there is no comparison.  It is much more difficult now than before the restoration.  On every tee I was trying to determine where I would place my tee shot to avoid the fairway bunkers, whether to lay-up, try to get past them, etc.  Also some of the greens now have some severe slopes you really have to think about where you leaving your approach shots.  It will be interesting to see how fast they can have them without large portions of the greens being unpinnable.

I shot 77 with a 4-putt on the 18th hole (only to go back and make the same putt after the round).  The mound in that green will be controversial, but there is nothing wrong with that.

Also the Lewisburg airport, while not large has the longest runway in WV, so I don't think air service will be an issue.  Crowds will be a challenge, but I can tell you that this event is being embraced by all West Virginians and I expect the crowds to be good.  Sure there will be logistic issues, but I doubt it is the only PGA event with issues.  It will be interesting to see where they will add length to the course (it has been reported that the course will be lengthed), but out of respect for Mr. Justice and Lester George I will not list the things I have heard to this point unless they are confirmed.

My TV stations WVNS in Beckley and WOWK in Charleston will be reporting on the developments, and I will be happy to share them.  The pictures I took this weekend are on my facebook page and a page a friend of mine started for the tournament.  Search Greenbrier and I am sure you will find it.

Charlie, thank you. Good to hear it has been made more challenging as the last time I played it was pre-Big Bertha and I could not imagine how much easier iot would have been playing today without the changes. Heck, I think my fairway wood of choice during my last trip around Old White was actually made of wood!

My last round at Old White was the first year Pat Carter won the event. As we were warming up Pat hit the 125 yard flag with a shot. I looked over at him and said "Pat, you will win today" (he was a couple shots back and I a couple more) but little did I know it would be the first of 12 in a row I believe. Not fun when you tee it up and know the other guy WILL beat you.

The scoring difference between the two courses does seem to have narrowed versus past years but there were/are always rounds in the 65-67 range on Old White.

[Chris Holcombe]

I think this will be an exciting event. Went on a golf trip to the Greenbrier in May and we could not get enough of Old White. The greens are absolutely fantastic. Hit it long on one and left on two and they will be in for a tough start.

[ChipOat]

Lester,

From reading a couple of prior threads, it sounds as though you started your work on Redan and Biarritz after I was last there (2003) to applaud your initial efforts and, also, to be disappointed in a diluted Macdonald effort (perhaps I was expecting too much from a resort course).  I was especially underwhelmed by the Redan (that you had not yet worked on).  No bunker depth and no apparent ground game opportunity from the right front of the green.  The concept was there but had been too "dumbed down" IMO to have the same playing characteristics as any other Redan that CBM ever built.

Do you have any pictures and/or commentary re: your restoration of Redan and/or Biarritz?

[Tim Gavrich]

Lester,

From reading a couple of prior threads, it sounds as though you started your work on Redan and Biarritz after I was last there (2003) to applaud your initial efforts and, also, to be disappointed in a diluted Macdonald effort (perhaps I was expecting too much from a resort course).  I was especially underwhelmed by the Redan (that you had not yet worked on).  No bunker depth and no apparent ground game opportunity from the right front of the green.  The concept was there but had been too "dumbed down" IMO to have the same playing characteristics as any other Redan that CBM ever built.

Do you have any pictures and/or commentary re: your restoration of Redan and/or Biarritz?

chipoat--

Feast your eyes!  IMO, the Redan hole is now the best hole at Old White...

[Ed Oden]

Were the chocolate drops in front of the greenside bunker part of the original design?  Are there other redans with similar features fronting the bunker?

Ed

[Lester George]

Ed,

Evidence of the Dragons Teeth were found in an aerial photo dating from the late 20's early 30's.  I put them back in one the Redan (8th) and the Mounds hole (5th) for accuracy.  Since we have found a photograph of the 5th that validates them. 

Lester

[ChipOat]

THAT looks better.  Does the green have enough back/front pitch to it (it didn't seem to in 2003)?  Also, I recall thinking that the traditional back right bunker was either non-existent or so shallow as to be a non-issue.  Any change there?

Any pictures and/or commentary re: the restored Biarritz?

As long as I'm posting, my take on Cape was that there was nothing distinctively "Cape-like" about it.

My opinion should never be construed to mean that OW isn't (and wasn't) a good golf course.  It just didn't have any real Macdonald/Raynor "teeth" in the bunkering and/or the greens - which disappointed me.  I'd have probably thought more of it if my expectations hadn't been what they were.

[Lester George]

Chip,

Go back now, I'm sure you will find it more to your expectations.  80% of the work was completed in the last two phases.  Yes I did put more slope in the Redan, but not too much.  The Biarritz turned out wonderful.  It has become alot of peoples favorite.  It was non-existant when we started.  I'll try to find a link to the current layout which illustrates the current course very well. 

Lester

[Lester George]

Gentlemen,

As promised above, here is the recent press release regarding changes at the Old White for the upcoming PGA Tour event. 

http://www.greenbrier.com/site/news-detail.aspx?cid=2575

This pretty much says it all although we are considering some "year two" initiatives once we see how it plays.  Work is progressing nicely but we need dry weather from here on out.

Lester

[Jud_T]

As far as assigning good dates to new events, I think that in the current environment if this guy's got deep pockets and will likely be a long-term sponsor, it makes good sense to give him a good date.  I read in Golfweek recently that the tour is likely to lose 2-3 events in 2011 as contracts expire...For bettter or worse, it's about the money not the history of the events.  If Tiger doesn't play in the Canadian Open, nobody really cares south of the border...

[Tim Gavrich]

Lester--

Thanks for updating us.  I'm interested to see the differences that these changes make.  As for the holes being lengthened, which are the most significant increases?

Can't wait to see it in time.

--Tim

[Lester George]

Tim,

The holes being lengthened the most are 13 (Alps) by 27 yards, 16 (Cape) by 39 yards and 17 (Creekside) by 45 yards or so. 

Should make for an exciting finish with 3, 4, 5, 3.  Especially with the last two.  Let me know when you want to see it, I am there once a week right now.

Lester

[Steve Wilson]

Lester,

I played the Old White three or four times in 1989.  At that time I knew virtually nothing about golf architecture, but I knew that I preferred that course to the remodeled Greenbrier and the third  course (I think it was called the Lakeside at that time).  I don't recall if the holes on the Old White were identified by name, but I do remember the redan.  My caddie was insistent that I take enough club to get the ball to the green.

But while the features of some holes are still in my memory  I can't think of a hole that could be identified as a Biarritz.  What is the number of the Biarritz?  I'm going to try and find my old scorecards and see how I did on it even though I didn't know it was a Biarritz and wasn't recognizable as one.


 

[Lester George]

Steve,

The Biarritz is now number 3 and WAS number three in the twenties.  We restored it in the last phase.

Lester

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Where are the new tees on 16 and 17 going to be placed?  Currently, I think that this course is a restoration wonder.  I sincerely hope that the fairway narrowing will only be temporary and not become another Bethpage Black.

[Lester George]

Robert,

The fairway narrowing is permanent but shouldn't be to bothersome for most players.  The Tour just can not wrap their arms around 40 yard wide fairways.  I am not too concerned with 4, 9 and 10 being narrowed.  The tee on 16 will go back across the creek to the Meadows side and will not be used for resort play.  The tee on 17 will go back in front of the lodge but remain on the 16 green side of the creek.  Yes, we plan on moving the bridge.

Lester

[Wade Whitehead]

I've played the Old White many times and treasure it, especially since it received Lester's attention a few years back.  The new changes sound like wonderful compromises between a fit for the property and design and necessaries for a modern Tour event.  I'm thrilled about the Tour playing what I believe to be a truly great, classic golf course; there aren't many other current venues that fit that description in my opinion.

Lester: Will Eden be changed at all?  How about the first hole?

Everyone: Will the Old White now present the best opening hole on tour?  I believe it might.  Also: Will there be a better redan on Tour than number 8?

WW

[Lester George]

WW,

On the Eden (15) I am adding 18 or 19 yards in the form of a new tee directly behind the existing back tee.  I am also changing the mowing pattern of the bentgrass to go around the Strath (right) bunker.  That is something I have always wanted to do.

No noticable changes to the 1st hole.  I have already removed one problematic tree but you would know it if you didn't see it.  Leveling the tee only.

It will, in my opinion be the best opening hole on tour.

I also think as exciting a finishing hole as one could have (considering it is a par 3) because the crowd will react audilbly to every shot.  Wrong side of the horseshoe (ooooooogh) correct side (yaaaaaaayy).  Should be some fun there for the spectators, players and television audience.

Again, in my opinion, there is no better Redan on tour than number 8.

Lester

 

[Wade Whitehead]

Lester:

I always enjoy the finish (15-18) because ANYTHING can happen.  This can be said at some other courses, of course, but frequently because of brutish length or over-the-top features.  At Old White, it's simply because the finishing holes are just that good.

The first hole is absolutely my favorite starter anywhere for many reasons.  The problematic tree wasn't just inside the dogleg, was it?

Wade

[JNC Lyon]

I'm just excited for the MacDonald "Short" hole as the par three finisher.