[Peter Pallotta]

Just fyi, but very interesting reading: two articles by Fowler from 1920 discussing some of the famed golf courses of British championship golf.  I think they give a good flavour of his thinking about architecture, at least as of 1920. Several times he mentions the need for better "tests" of golf.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1920/gi126i.pdf

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1920/gi131l.pdf

[George Pazin]

In other words, I find very few examples of Colt's work where the design is debatable - it is good and obviously so.  Fowler on the other hand has elements which are debatable as good, awkward or perhaps left too much in nature's hands.  

Fascinating observation, great thread.

For all the talk of the decline of the site, really interesting threads like this still only draw the attention of a select few. Thankfully those few are all we readers need.

[Peter Pallotta]

I was going to bring up exactly the same quote, George. That really was a neat observation, about Colt's design rarely being "debatable".  I'm gonna steal that from Sean as soon as I get a chance (maybe the next time the board sees a major 'turnover'...)

Peter

[Sean_A]

Sean:

When you speak of Fowler's style what courses are you thinking of, specifically?  I have only seen four, I think, and they are all very different, but that's a very small sample size and I could not generalize too much about what his style really was.

Tom(s)

Comparative to Colt, I believe Fowler was certainly a man caught between two worlds.  

The courses I have in mind are Saunton, Westward Ho!, Beau Desert, Blackwell, Berkshire (the one which really stands out as an odd duck and very (Colt like), Bull Bay, Walton Heath (New especially) and from pix Yelverton.  There are probably a few others I am forgetting at the moment.  I can readly agree that Colt had a much larger sample size so his courses are bound to have a more similar similar feel.  However, that wasn't really my point.  I was trying to describe reasons why Fowler and Colt produced such different courses (I too can't really pinpoint a Fowler style, but I can for Colt) and considering how many courses Colt did at how high of a spec they are.  

Ciao

Sean

We have to be careful here: Blackwell is definitely Tom Simpson's and Saunton is a mix with post war designers,  I remember I kind of worked which holes were Fowler's.  I think you've played Delamere too?

Paul

I seem to recall Saunton being outlined as over half Fowler with elements of Fowler on the West as well - in total making up more than a course.

You have said before that Blackwell is a Simpson, but I think Fowler may have routed the course and Simpson provided much of the detail.  The course feels very Fowlerish to me and I would like to see the evidence of Simpson's input. 

The Berkshire doesn't feel like Fowler to me, but nor does it have the tell tale bunkering of Simpson.  To be honest, if folks said it was a Colt I don't think anybody would bat an eye.

Yes, I have played Delamere and it is yet again different from other Fowler courses using the land exceptionally well imo, but the greens are of very little interest, a feature which strikes me as most odd.  In a way, this reminds me of Stoneham, a superbly layed out Park Jr course near Southampton that has some very dull greens.  Interestingly, I think the concept of a circular 9s within each other came from here originally even though Colt's Muirfield gets all the glory for this idea. 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Fowler was modern for his times too. To my knowledge he was the first to use heavy machinery to build a golf course (at Walton Heath Old). I believe Fowler was also the first to use plasticine models for his greens (Simpson gave him the idea at Cruden Bay circa 1910), and many others later picked up on that idea.  From what I understand he used plasticine throughout his career, when many others gave up on it (including Simpson) because they believed it produced greens that looked like plasticine models, too artificial. That practice may have contributed to the 'crude' or old fashioned appearance of his courses.

Another possible reason for the differences between Fowler and Colt could be age. The majority of Fowler's work was done before WW1.

Tom

Are you sure that Simpson and Fowler met at Cruden Bay in 1910?  They had just started their partnership that year and it wasn't until 1926 that they did any work on Cruden Bay.  Or was it Archie Simpson (who in 1910 completed one of his most important works, the remodeling of Royal Aberdeen) that Fowler met then?

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

Thanks for that, as it turns out I've seen a couple more Fowler courses than I remembered.

I don't know the history of Eastward Ho! or how much Fowler was there, but I suspect that the general difference between Fowler and Colt was that Colt did more of his designing on paper, and Fowler did more of his in the field.  Colt's greens are similar because they were all done to a plan ... usually that means most of them are going to be perched up a little bit on fill, whereas the guy in the field is just going to set them on the ground where he can.  Also, bunkering schemes tend to be more similar when you are considering them on paper instead of just putting them where they look good to the eye and working the fairway and strategy around that.

(Not intended as a knock on Colt ... it's just that he did way more projects, and he didn't like to travel that much anyway.)

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom D,

I am sure he could have picked up some travel tips from Ross or even HH Barker!

[Tom MacWood]

Rich
I think it was probably closer to 1908. Fowler wrote an article in 1911 (11/18/1911) on the use of models for making greens and bunkers. He said he got the idea from his friend T. Simpson. According to Fowler T. Simpson had first used them when TS was redesigning Cruden Bay. I also found an article in Golf Illustrated (1/29/1909) describing some of the recent changes to Cruden Bay, and coincidently the article was written by T. Simpson.

The club history says they were involved in 1926, but I have found no evidence of any work being done in '26. I have found evidence Fowler & Simpson were doing something at CB in 1920. A Carter's pamphlet has a picture of a plasticine green done by F&S and dated 1920; it is identified as the new course. St. Olaf?

[Tom MacWood]

Sean:

Thanks for that, as it turns out I've seen a couple more Fowler courses than I remembered.

I don't know the history of Eastward Ho! or how much Fowler was there, but I suspect that the general difference between Fowler and Colt was that Colt did more of his designing on paper, and Fowler did more of his in the field.  Colt's greens are similar because they were all done to a plan ... usually that means most of them are going to be perched up a little bit on fill, whereas the guy in the field is just going to set them on the ground where he can.  Also, bunkering schemes tend to be more similar when you are considering them on paper instead of just putting them where they look good to the eye and working the fairway and strategy around that.

(Not intended as a knock on Colt ... it's just that he did way more projects, and he didn't like to travel that much anyway.)

TD
Why do you think there are so few Colt plans floating around...in comparison to say Ross or Mackenzie or Tillinghast?

I believe Fowler's favored method, as opposed to plans on paper, was to create plasticine models. I don't get the impression he spent any more time on site than his contemporaries.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

I don't know why there are so few Colt plans out there.  I've seen his gridded hole-by-hole drawings for Pine Valley and in his book, and assumed that he did this for most of his other projects.  Alison picked up the same technique judging from the plans for Milwaukee CC and the Japanese courses.  But I guess I haven't seen too many plans by Colt himself.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

Hamilton (Ontario) G&CC has a great set of individual hole sketches by Colt, illustrating his original design. These sketches are framed, and hang in the clubhouse.

Now... if only the club would use Colt's sketches to genuinely restore Ancaster 

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff / Tom:

Maybe Colt just did the sketches for projects where he knew he wasn't going to be back much during construction.

I'm sure he saw no need to do a bunch of drawings for Sunningdale (New) since he was living there.  He might have taken the same approach with most of his other courses around London.

You would find the same for my work ... I didn't do many drawings at all on some projects, but did more on others because they were required by somebody.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

Good point.

I don't believe Colt ever returned to Hamilton following his initial layout/design. So, the detailed sketches would have been necessary there. Same at Toronto, where a really cool hand drawn routing plan by Colt, circa 1910, is on display, too.

[Tom MacWood]

The four Colt plans I'm aware of are all N. American - PV, Old Elm, Toronto and Hamilton.

[Sean_A]

I saw plans for Edgbaston - individual hole drawings only.  Believe it or not, they are kept in the pro shop.   I have no idea if Colt drew them though.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Rich
I think it was probably closer to 1908. Fowler wrote an article in 1911 (11/18/1911) on the use of models for making greens and bunkers. He said he got the idea from his friend T. Simpson. According to Fowler T. Simpson had first used them when TS was redesigning Cruden Bay. I also found an article in Golf Illustrated (1/29/1909) describing some of the recent changes to Cruden Bay, and coincidently the article was written by T. Simpson.

The club history says they were involved in 1926, but I have found no evidence of any work being done in '26. I have found evidence Fowler & Simpson were doing something at CB in 1920. A Carter's pamphlet has a picture of a plasticine green done by F&S and dated 1920; it is identified as the new course. St. Olaf?

Tom

A. Simpson (Archie) said in an interview with the Evening Dispatch in July, 1908 "Of all the courses I have planned in this district (Aberdeenshire) I regard Cruden Bay as my masterpiece."  I find it very difficult to believe that T. Simpson (Tom) was at all involved at Cruden Bay around that time, given that Archie was still in the vicintity and clearly the leading architect in the district, and Simpson had no architectural pedigree at all at the time except as an observer, just as most of us on this forum.

[Paul_Turner]

Jeff / Tom:

Maybe Colt just did the sketches for projects where he knew he wasn't going to be back much during construction.

I'm sure he saw no need to do a bunch of drawings for Sunningdale (New) since he was living there.  He might have taken the same approach with most of his other courses around London.

You would find the same for my work ... I didn't do many drawings at all on some projects, but did more on others because they were required by somebody.

Tom

I think that's basically correct.  

There aren't many plans that have come to light from Colt other than the US and Canadian ones that Tom M states.  

Kennemer is another club which has a full routing plan with many iterations, but he did visit that club about a dozen times during its construction so it wasn't really a paper planning job.    Generally, I don't think he bothered planning on paper for the more local clubs.

Sean...I recently had a good look at the Edgbaston plans in "Creating Classics" and compared the handwriting with some I know is definitely Colt's and I'm almost 100% sure that the plans are in his hand.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom,

Good point.

I don't believe Colt ever returned to Hamilton following his initial layout/design. So, the detailed sketches would have been necessary there. Same at Toronto, where a really cool hand drawn routing plan by Colt, circa 1910, is on display, too.

Jeff

I think he planned to return to Hamilton but the war stopped him and then after WW1 Alison came over and took care of N America for the firm (visiting Toronto pretty soon after WW1 in 1920).  

Other than the first 1911 visit, Colt definitely visited Toronto GC in 1913 because we have his report.  And he must had revisited in 1914 too when he worked at Hamilton.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tom D
Colt didn't like to travel?
Off the top of my head Ireland, Scotland, Wales,Belgium,Holland, France, Canada and US.  Sorry but as a percentage of projects I'd bet he travelled more than Fowler

[Tom MacWood]

Tom

A. Simpson (Archie) said in an interview with the Evening Dispatch in July, 1908 "Of all the courses I have planned in this district (Aberdeenshire) I regard Cruden Bay as my masterpiece."  I find it very difficult to believe that T. Simpson (Tom) was at all involved at Cruden Bay around that time, given that Archie was still in the vicintity and clearly the leading architect in the district, and Simpson had no architectural pedigree at all at the time except as an observer, just as most of us on this forum.

Rich
Archie's comments are understandable; it is well documented he designed Cruden Bay in 1899. You are correct T. Simpson had no pedigree in 1908, but he had to start somewhere. This is from the Fowler article of 11/18/1911.

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:

I didn't say Colt never traveled; just that he is reported not to have liked traveling much, and for that reason he was happy to hand off overseas clients to Alison and Morrison in their partnership.  Nearly all of his travel outside the UK was before World War I; his last visit to North America was in 1914.

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, Tom MacW, for that article.  My guess is that Tom S. did give advice to Cruden Bay when playing there (probably unsolicited, as this was often his modus operandi), but I'll wait for some confirmation of its importance from someone other than his business partner before giving him any signfiicant credit for work done prior to 1926.  That being said, the published CB Club history is a very haphazard and colorful one (for example, twice referring to Tom Simpson as President of the Club in 1961 and then producing a copy of a letter in 1967 to Mr. Glennie inviting him to become their "first President"), calling Tom S. the "course architect" and then having a hole by hole analysis which tends to denigrate his work at the expense of Old Tom Morris' initial design.  There is a "truth" out there, but I doubt if we will ever know it.

[Sean_A]

I don't think it matters much for Cruden Bay.  I think we well established that there are many OTM elements so at best we can say is Simpson was co-designer.  IMO, the course doesn't feel very Simpson-like and I suspect he worked with serious restrictions/conditions. 

Paul

Thanks for that.  I would have thought Colt drew them.  The club doesn't seem terribly concerned how the plans are kept and may take greater care if they how rare Colt plans are.  A few holes are already missing.

Ciao

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
I don't recall anyone establishing the OTM elements. Could you point me to that thread? If I recall correctly you relied heavily on the sloppy club history or maybe it was Kroger (who relied on the club history too). From my research it is clear the original course was designed by Archie Simpson, not OTM. T. Simpson apparently redesigned the course in circa 1908 (he described the changes in an article in 1909). He didn't build a new course, so naturally it would still have many of the original elements.

Rich
You covered all your bases there, Simpson advise was probably unsolicited and/or Fowler was probably lying. Where else did Simpson give unsolicited advise?

I agree with you about the Cruden Bay's history, but despite the many errors everyone seems to accept its account, including Sean.

I'm more optimistic, I think we are much closer to the truth than we've ever been. Archie Simpson laid out the course in 1899 (his masterpiece). OTM gave some advise. The resident pro A.N. Weir polished up the course in the early 1900s. T. Simpson or possibly Simpson/Fowler redesigned the course in 1908.

I'm not sure what Simpson's relationship was with the Club, he clearly had some relationship based on the two articles in Golf illustrated. The second article was reporting on the big professional event played their in 1909. The Great Triumvirate were entered, and I believe Taylor won it. T. Simpson was the referee for the tournament.

I don't know if Fowler was a frequent visitor or not, but he did play in at least a couple of tournaments at CB in the early 1900s. He may have had a relationship with the Club too, which why I think its possible he was involved in 1908.

[Rich Goodale]

Where else did Simpson give unsolicited advise?

Royal Aberdeen immediately comes to mind.

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