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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #275 on: August 12, 2010, 01:49:32 PM »
Mike

It isn't a priority to me, but in his desperation TEPaul has again taken to lying about it.  

If he wants to lie about it and pretend that he didn't learn anything from me or my essay and that they had everything already, then I will set the record straight, and the straight record is pretty pathetic when it comes to those two.

But its nice to see how easily you fall back into your bullshit attacks on my motivations.  I cannot say I am surprised.  

Funny how you can try to turn TEPaul lying about me into me being out to get him.  TEPaul must be very proud of your progress.

Check the past threads for the answer to your question.


And Mike,  why do you have no problem with TEPaul's obvious motivations in dealing with me?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 01:53:27 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #276 on: August 12, 2010, 01:51:42 PM »
"I tried but was not allowed to see the minutes, but in the course of my conversations with them I was told what they had."



David Moriarty:


Is that right? You were not allowed to see the minutes? Would you mind explaining that to us? Were you denied access to Merion's archives or was it just a matter of the fact you were not willing to follow the process and protocol they asked you to follow; the very same one we all have to follow? You probably just asked them to send things to you as MacWood did. That is not their policy for anyone and there's no reason to make some exception with you two.

TEPaul,

I understand this is all very confusing to you, but please try to keep up.   

I was referring to MCC not Merion golf club.   Merion Golf Club didn't have the minutes, and I knew that, so why the hell would have I gone to Merion Golf Club for records I knew they didn't have?? 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #277 on: August 12, 2010, 01:53:34 PM »

I don't think there is a wide scope of interpretation?  



This is the type of obtuseness that makes the conversations a challenge...how can the thread move so slowly if not for a wide range of interpretations?

I know you think your interpretation is accurate, but it's your inability to accept that others have a different interpretation. I'm not saying facts, just possibilities.

I assume you'll admit that there needs to be alot of..."what more might be out there" when we get to the part about CBM participation in the routing...

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #278 on: August 12, 2010, 01:54:03 PM »
Jim,

Two questions for you, if you would;

Why do you think Francis believed that workmen were out blasting a day or two after his brainstorm?

Why do you think the 1910 survey map neglects to identify the 3 acres of RR land as part of the golf course?

What do you think the board minutes were talking about when they referred to swapping for land for "land already purchased"?

Bear with me if you would...did you ever wonder if possibly the Francis swap happened AFTER April 1911?

I'm not claiming that but I'm not sure I can rule it out yet either.   

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #279 on: August 12, 2010, 01:55:57 PM »
But NOW, David Moriarty, why don't you begin dealing with Cirba's and Sullivan's good questions to you and stop trying to divert attention away from them by continuously criticizing me or me and Wayne or the both of us and Merion on post after post?  ;)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #280 on: August 12, 2010, 01:58:28 PM »
Jim,

I thought you meant wide interpretations of the facts, not of Tolhurst.

There are definitely wide interpretations of Tolhurst.  But not all these interpretations have an actual factual basis.

Or are there facts which support your interpretation of Tolhurst of which I am not aware?

______________________

TEPaul,

You are the one who is lying about what you knew at the time my essay came out.   Why don't you set the record straight about what you knew and what you had, and then we can move on to the next section of Tolhurst?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #281 on: August 12, 2010, 02:02:42 PM »
David,

My comments about the pointless bickering about who found what when was directed to both you and Tom.

Its a waste and both of you should shut it down, but you responded to me with a rant criticizing their research and calling them "jokers", among other things.

Can it...nobody cares what you or Tom think about their research prior to your essay that was focused on Flynn and it really is non productive here.

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #282 on: August 12, 2010, 02:03:07 PM »
Mike Cirba:

Excellent questions on #278 (not that they haven't been asked on here before with the consequent refusal by Moriarty to answer them commonsensically.

Do any of us think he will actually be willing to intelligently answer them now? I'm sure not going to hold my breath on that. ;)

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #283 on: August 12, 2010, 02:05:47 PM »
And David,

Please answer my question about factual evidence in the secondd half of 1910.

Thanks

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #284 on: August 12, 2010, 02:07:31 PM »
David,

No, I do not have any information that would help the conversation. I spoke to Tom P earlier and he said he was going to MCC to see about MCCGA in 1909. Until he reveals what he finds, my input is speculation. Your use of the financial motive as laid out in a letter to the members is fine, and not something I'm interested in moving you off of, just allow me to disagree with it being the only reason because the context of that letter is not one of fiduciary responsibility, it was offering an investment opportunity to finance the new venture.



Mike,

Let me take a minute.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #285 on: August 12, 2010, 02:07:49 PM »
Mike you are talking to the wrong guy.  You need to have TEPaul quit lying about what he knew and what he had.  And now that he has lied about it again, you need to have him set the record straight.  

This isn't my issue, it is his.  I am just defending myself against his lies.  Set the lies straight and the issue goes away.

As for your question, it is all in my essay and the threads.


Help TEPaul set his lies straight and we can move on to the next section of Tolhurst.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #286 on: August 12, 2010, 02:13:40 PM »
Tom Paul,

Had you spent much time at all studying the minutes and other historical data about Merion concerning the dates up until the opening of the East Course prior to David's essay? I don't see how or why you would have, but a clear answer to this question will help things move along.

My own observation is that David did a ton of research from a distance (from the archives of either club) and found several very interesting items that we on this site hadn't seen or discussed before then. After its posting on here, I thought you and Wayne went to MCC and found several other very interesting items.

Is this a fair, albeit very brief, summary of who had what and when?

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #287 on: August 12, 2010, 02:17:38 PM »
David,

I don't know what they had and when and I don't care at all and wish you'd both shut up about it and feel confident saying that I'm sure everyone feels the same here.

Is there any factual evidence?

Any??

Please name one thing...anything.

Its not all in your essay or on the other threads because I've looked.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #288 on: August 12, 2010, 02:21:11 PM »

"In 1909, the golfers of the Merion Cricket club formed the Merion Cricket GC Association to examine the problem presented by the Haskell ball, namely that it had made theri course obsolete."

Jim
Can we agree the portion underlined is incorrect? The Association dates back to at least 1898, and if your definition of formed is incorporated, that year is off as well.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #289 on: August 12, 2010, 02:39:22 PM »
Tom M,

No, I think one year off on the incorporation date would not make it meaningfully inaccurate. I also disagree with your notion that this MUST be compatible to an historical research debate. That's why I used "meaningfully inaccurate" as my baseline. I don't expect you to accept that threshold.

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #290 on: August 12, 2010, 02:55:34 PM »
Perhaps asking the question in another way to both David and TMac might work;

What factual evidence exists from the second half of 1910 that suggests that CBM and not HH Barker routed the course before Nov 1910?

Similarly, what factual evidence exists that either of these men designed Merion before Nov 1910 rather than say, Alex Findlay?  Or a Space Alien for that matter? ;)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #291 on: August 12, 2010, 03:22:45 PM »
Tom M,

No, I think one year off on the incorporation date would not make it meaningfully inaccurate. I also disagree with your notion that this MUST be compatible to an historical research debate. That's why I used "meaningfully inaccurate" as my baseline. I don't expect you to accept that threshold.

Meaningfully inaccurate? I'm not familiar with that term in regards to history. Documenting history involves precise dates.

The Great Crash of 1928....

The Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor in 1940....

Are these not inaccurate statements?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #292 on: August 12, 2010, 03:24:13 PM »
Would they change what happened?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #293 on: August 12, 2010, 03:24:45 PM »
Tom,
Not accurate - Pearl Harbor took place in 1941   8)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #294 on: August 12, 2010, 03:25:28 PM »
I thought the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor...

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #295 on: August 12, 2010, 03:30:18 PM »
"Why don't you set the record straight about what you knew and what you had, and then we can move on to the next section of Tolhurst? "


David Moriarty:

I have no idea what I knew or didn't know about the old Haverford, the MCCGA, the 1910 and 1911 details of Merion because as I've told you about twenty times now our primary subject and research interest had been William Flynn and his involvement with Merion when it came to the subject of Merion.

So I never even thought about those old MCC meeting minutes about MCCGA, Macdonald, Horatio Gates Lloyd, Griscom, Francis, the Wilson Committee et al. It was never my intention to manufacture some bogus alternative story of Merion's architectural history as Macdonald and the router, designer or driving force as you and your revisionist essay tried to claim, or MacWood's even more ridiculous scenario of Barker routing the course in June 1910 while hired by somebody who had nothing to do with Merion or designing the course in a stop-over at Ardmore on the train on his way from New York to Georgia.

But we had access to all that material we produced after your essay that you did not have and apparently never knew existed because you have never been to Merion or MCC.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #296 on: August 12, 2010, 03:36:03 PM »
Would they change what happened?

Of course the precise date is important in documenting history. Historic research involves developing an understanding of the past through the examination and interpretation of evidence. If your evidence is inaccurate your understanding will be based on false information. That is why historians value accuracy.

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #297 on: August 12, 2010, 03:36:13 PM »
"David,

I don't know what they had and when and I don't care at all and wish you'd both shut up about it and feel confident saying that I'm sure everyone feels the same here.

Is there any factual evidence?"




Mike:

I realize you don't care who had some information first and no one probably cares about that at all. I sure don't but don't you realize that is all David Moriarty can put on here now or he might have to actually answer your questions and Sully's? He probably never will try to answer your questions as I'm quite sure he know he has no satisfactory answers and he knows we know he has none. So what could would it do him to try to actually answer your good questions intelligently.

No, I think he will probably just stick with railing against me or me and Wayne or us and Merion. That's all he's got left, I guess.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 03:39:35 PM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #298 on: August 12, 2010, 03:45:09 PM »
There are about a dozen debates/discussions going on here at the same time, including one about the relative value of David's essay given that he wrote it before some information had come to light/he had access to said information.  I read David's essay again; it's a good piece of theorizing, written by someone who was obviously engaged and interested in the subject/material at hand.

At the time David wrote his essay, he described it as rough draft  I believed then (as I do now) that he had every right to explore this subject and to posit some of his early ideas/theories about it.  (The trouble came, I think, when the essay was met with such hostility -- including probably from me, which I regret -- that David then felt it was necessary to defend his theory as if it were rock-solid fact.)  While noting that it was a rough/preliminary draft, however, David also made clear the elements of his basic/initial  thesis, which can be summarized (in his own words) as follows:

1. While Hugh I. Wilson is credited with designing the great Merion East course that opened in 1912, he did not plan the original layout or conceive of the holes.

2. My preliminary view is that many of the original holes at Merion East were based upon the conceptual underpinnings of the great holes, as understood by Macdonald and Whigham.

3. Wilson neither planned the routing nor conceived of the holes at Merion East. The course was planned months before Merion even appointed Wilson and his “Construction Committee.” Wilson and his Construction Committee were not appointed to design the course or conceive of the holes, but were to do what the name of their committee implies, construct the golf course.

Okay - there it is; that's it. That's the basic thesis.

I'm not trying to end debate or this thread, but I think it might be somewhat useful if people don't lose sight of the main (initial) points of contention, and that whatever details that are shared/debated now be 'tied into' these main points.

I'd be interested to know two things: 1) would David, after a couple of years of reflection, change anything that he wrote above? 2) Can others, removed from the main debate a couple of years ago, see/recognize and appreciate how David came to the thesis he did?  

Peter
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 03:47:15 PM by PPallotta »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #299 on: August 12, 2010, 03:55:14 PM »
TEPaul,

This is your issue, not mine.  You are the one repeatedly saying that my essay is inaccurate because I didn't go to MGC and you guys before I let Ran post it.

I am only correcting the record that you insist on misrepresenting.    You guys didn't have any of this stuff, not the Board's letter, Lesley Report, Connell Letter, Barker Letter, the meeting minutes, or multiple other important documents.   And the stuff you did have, like the deed from 1909 which involved neither the club nor the land, you guys had so badly misinterpreted so as to completely garble what actually happened.  

There was NOTHING that you guys had that would have changed the substance of my paper one bit.    And you need to stop representing otherwise.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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