[JESII]

David,

You said above that that you wanted to stick with what the record supports...well the fact that Wilson was named Chairman of the committee in January (with no prior experience) is enough support for me that he was involved in their plans prior to that date...but we don't have hard, real evidence of that.

Do you have hard, real evidence that any of the guys you mentioned were out there between July 1, 1910 and January 1911?



I think you paint yourself into a corner by including others, but excluding Wilson under identical circumstances.

[TEPaul]

"Do you think that means he was not on the committee as initially established?"


Sully:

That's hard to say. Like a lot of things people say or particularly said back then it's open to a number of interpretations on what they really meant. Obviously when he said he was 'added to the committee' it could mean he was just put on it when everyone else was or that he was added to it later.

It's of no real difference than what Richard Francis said about that triangle in 1950, close to forty years after his idea.

"Mr. Lloyd agree. The land now covered with fine homes along Golf House Road was exchanged for land about 130 yards wide by 190 yards long---the present location of the 15th green and the 16th tee."

From that one could infer and interpret that he meant an entire 130 by 190 yard triangle was created and one could also infer and interpret that he meant one existed and was added to and 130 by 190 was merely the final result.

[TEPaul]

"And there is evidence that CBM was dealing with Wilson prior to February 1, 1911,"


What evidence is there that CBM was dealing with Wilson prior to February 1, 1911?

Do you mean Wilson might have been there when CBM and Whigam came to Ardmore in June 1910?

Other than that I don't think Merion is aware of another contact between CBM until early March 1911 when the committee went to NGLA (which you seemed to think was at some point in January, 1911), and then of course when CBM and Whigam came back to Ardmore on April 6, 1911. Other than that they are not aware of any evidence of contact of any kind. So what do you think you have? I hope it's not something in your essay because that is decidely not actual evidence of further contact between CBM and Wilson or Merion.

[Mike Cirba]

Didn't the June 29th 1910 CBM letter to Merion refer to sending the soil samples to Washington?

In fact, he wrote them specifically;

As regards drainage and treatment of soil, I think it would be wise for your Committee to confer with the Baltusrol Committee.  They had a very difficult drainage problem.  You have a very simple one.  Their drainage opinions will be valuable to you.  Further, I think their soil is very similar to yours, and it might be wise to learn from them the grasses that have proved most satisfactory though the fair green.

In the meantime, it will do no harm to cut a sod or two and send it to Washington for analysis of the natural grasses, those indigenous to the soil.


If he referred Merion to P&O during that visit, why would he need to tell it to Wilson again separately once they bought the property and started working on it?    That would be sort of redundant, wouldn't it?   He mentions that Macdonald "spoke" of them, so he was either there or got it through hearsay from another member.

[JESII]

I know the answer but still have to log the question...for posterity...doesn't the golf course have to be routed and drawn by the date of that letter if Piper is going to pick the area of soil to analyze to advise on the best short growing grasses?

[Mike Cirba]

jim,

Why?

I'd think you'd just want to send representative samples from different parts of the property...you generally would want grass to grow on all of it, right? 

CBM certainly seemed to not require a routing when he gave that that advice back in June 1910.

[TEPaul]

"I know the answer but still have to log the question...for posterity...doesn't the golf course have to be routed and drawn by the date of that letter if Piper is going to pick the area of soil to analyze to advise on the best short growing grasses?"


Sully:

Actually no. Firstly, Wilson was communicating with Oakley for the first few months and the survey map Wilson sent Oakley apparently only demarked the ground in a series of lettered sections.

[JESII]

Tell me about those lettered sections.

[JESII]

MIke,

"short growing grasses" was the key identifier in Wilson's request.

[Mike Cirba]

Actually, if these guys had everything locked and loaded and ready to roll back in the summer/fall of 1910, why did they wait seven months before even acting on CBM's most basic, fundamental step?

[JESII]

Mike,

Glad you're finally ready to make some progress.

[TEPaul]

"Tell me about those lettered sections."


Wilson sent Oakley a blueprint of the property with sections of the property lettered. He would then send soil samples to Washington that were lettered to the corresponding lettered sections of the property on the blueprint so Oakley could tell where the soil samples came from on the property.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

Actually, I never really thought of it before but if Wilson had sent Oakley a blueprint with a routing with the numbered holes of a golf course on it he obviously could've labeled those soil samples that he sent to Washington to correspond to the appropriate hole number on the routing. But that's not the way they did it. There were only lettered sections on the blueprint that the lettered labels on the soil samples corresponded to.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Referring by hole number would certainly seem logical to me if the course was routed.

Why create a separate classification system and confuse things?

[JESII]

I understand the concept and method you describe, I'm curious what exactly is known about this specific map.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

A couple of thoughts.

I may be wrong but I don't think they were going to seed with anything but "short growing grasses", even in the roughs.   I'd answer more questions about sections of the property they took soil samples from, and the process, but it's been awhile since I looked at those letters in detail. 

As far as what Francis meant when he said he was "added" to the Committee, I think it could mean Francis was added at the inception of the committee, it could mean that he was added after the others, but it could never mean that he was out there with Lloyd prior and then the others joined them afterwards, as the essay contends.

 

[JESII]

Mike,

Do you really think the formal appointment date of this committee meant anything to a single one of them? Seriously...the establishment of a committee and appointment of committeemen is simply a political construct...as with my example the other day with Cobbs Creek, YOU will have an appointment date eventually, and hopefully, years later you will be asked to write about your efforts, and it'll all meld together because the details such as what exactly was done prior to the formal appointment of the committee are meaningless...except for to those of you out there right now figuring it all out.

The complete story is what's relevant.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

No, I get your point there.

I'm just seeing that they sure got off to a slow start if CBM told them to send soil to Washington in June 1910 and they didn't even reach out to P&O until Feb 1911.

I think they were involved more in the land acquisition dealings in that period than any work on golf holes.

I did find the old thread for you where you can read about the samples of soils and grasses they sent.

You can thank me that the Melatonin won't be needing tonight.    

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40454.0/


btw...I'm still waiting for someone to provide any type of reasonable explanation of why HDC would have subdivided the only 120 acres they owned for golf by chopping off the head at the same time the club was requesting 120 acres, and HDC was promising golf course facing houses all along the boundary adjacent to the new golf course.  

[TEPaul]

"I'm curious what exactly is known about this specific map."

It was probably their contour survey map. We've been talking about it on here for years and we've been looking for it for many years---all through Merion, MCC, we've called all the old surveying companies around here that're still around, we've looked in the National Archives, the US Dept of Agriculture and shortly I plan to go to the Delaware County Recorder of Deeds to see if it was perhaps filed with a preliminary or development plan for the Haverford Development Co.

As time goes on and more pieces of info come in the idea (suggested in the essay, "The Missing Faces of Merion") that Richard Francis was out there working on a golf course plan on his own or with Lloyd in 1910 before Wilson was involved or his committee was appointed looks to be more illogical than ever. In my opinion, that was just a ploy with no evidence to suggest it to explain that Francis' idea must have created that whole triangle and to try to minimize Wilson's position to make it look like he was incapable of routing and designing a golf course, THEREFORE, someone else must have done it for him and his committee---eg Macdonald in Moriarty's suggestion and Barker in MacWood's.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I've yet to hear anyone explain why that Johnson Farm property, with only 120 of its acres viable for golf, and with Merion asking for 120 acres for their course, all as early as June 1910, would have arbitrarily and capriciously chopped off the 10.5 acre head of their offering, especially after promising everyone that all of their real estate property adjoining the golf course would have all of the houses facing it.

I started this thread this morning with that question, and I'm not surprised that it was avoided all day.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

You wrote:

I know the answer but still have to log the question...for posterity...doesn't the golf course have to be routed and drawn by the date of that letter if Piper is going to pick the area of soil to analyze to advise on the best short growing grasses?

In this case, you may recall that parts, but not all of the Johnson farm were blessed with a cover of what later became known as Merion Bluegrass.  Those lettered areas corresponded to areas of this natural grass for the most part, or lack thereof.  So, it is quite possible that the routing had no bearing on the soil and turf tests at all.  Many holes, (from memory, 14, 18 and that general area, but I could be wrong) required no planting, just mowing, while other areas would have required perhaps draining, fertilizing, etc. because of varying soils.

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

I think if memory serves the area of the course where they didn't plant grass seed was the 10th, 11th, 12th fairways, where some finer grasses already existed.

A few years later they dug them up and planted anyway, prior to the 1916 US Amateur.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Oh well, another blow to my once legendary photographic memory!

[Mike Cirba]

Oh well, another blow to my once legendary photographic memory!

Jeff,

You're not the only one.

I've played over 825 courses, and up until about 3 or so years ago I could visually picture from photographic memory just about every golf hole I'd ever played.   No lie.

Today, I'm lucky to recall 40% of them.

I'm not sure if the photos disappeared, or the memory!   

I used to joke that I only had photographic memory with golf courses and women.

The same syndrome applies there as well, unfortunately, or sometimes fortunately.   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

I always wondered why people bought into that line from Jack about being able to remember all the holes he played and that translating into great architecture.  Don't most of us recall most holes, except the ones we play so badly, we force ourselves to forget?

Hell, old Jack even forgets that at one point, people were trying to limit the golf ball and Jack proof golf courses, just like they did for Tiger recently.

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