[TEPaul]

I wouldn't go overboard in your compliments of MacWood and his sense of humor, Michael.

Over the years, he has occasionally shown this site he has one, as has Moriarty. But in both cases they tend to use it as their last-ditch ploy to not answer the intelligent, cogent and incisive questions put to them on here that they know they cannot answer without significantly embarrassing themselves.

[DMoriarty]

Over the years, he has occasionally shown this site he has one, as has Moriarty. But in both cases they tend to use it as their last-ditch ploy to not answer the intelligent, cogent and incisive questions put to them on here that they know they cannot answer without significantly embarrassing themselves.

We'll have to cross that bridge if we ever get such a question.

[TEPaul]

Pretty good response, actually. 

But thankfully it is not just you who gets to decide the questions  on here even if, you think you do or you think you should.

There have been some very good questions put to you and your essay on here in the last few days when this thread has actually been pretty pleasant without you.

You haven't answered any of them but don't fret about it; at this point, I think we all know why.

[DMoriarty]

Pretty good response, actually.  

But thankfully it is not just you who gets to decide the questions  on here even if, you think you do or you think you should.

There have been some very good questions put to you and your essay on here in the last few days when this thread has actually been pretty pleasant without you.

You haven't answered any of them but don't fret about it; at this point, I think we all know why.

If I didn't answer your questions it is probably because I didn't see them.  I am trying to ignore your posts once they become belligerent, mocking, and insulting.   If you want answers from me you'll try a different tact.  That and ask me questions I haven't already answered ad nauseum.

My position is simple and straightforward. It has always been based upon the Francis statement, and it is little changed since my essay.  Meanwhile, you guys have gone through more theories than Cirba has gone through titles on the public golf thread.   I am still waiting for you guys to come up with a theory which can be reconciled with the Francis statement.

[TEPaul]

"If I didn't answer your questions it is probably because I didn't see them."


I will certainly accept that as you put it.

 

"I am trying to ignore your posts once they become belligerent, mocking, and insulting."



I suppose I understand your thinking that way, Moriarty, even if I don't subscribe to your philosophy or respect you for that self-stated philosophy. I am never going to IGNORE your posts, once, and particularly if, they become billigerent, mocking and insulting!

[TEPaul]

Now, Moriarty, why don't you---or why don't you let us get back to a discussion of golf architecture, and particularly about Tolhurst or the architectural history of Merion in 1910 and 1911, instead of a discussion about you?

[DMoriarty]

That's fine, Tom.  But it is you who can't seem to refrain from making the conversation about me.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Let's see if we can't get this back on track.

Your theory is that the Francis Swap was his idea that the golf course needed to go north of the Haverford College Boundary (which you think HDC artificially created as a subdivide of the Johnson Farm property, even though HG Lloyd was working with HDC) sometime before November, 1910.

Do you think he "swapped back" any land at that time as he stated in his recollections?

Thinking again what Francis said confidently about "fitting" the first 13 holes in place prior south of and along the clubhouse, and knowing they were in the final design stretch...

Thinking also about what Francis said about having workmen out there a day or so after his idea blasting the top off the quarry to create today's 16th greensite...

It seems weird to me that a professional engineer and surveyor would first select/obtain an area for golf in that triangle, trade back land in return across the street from the clubhouse, have the triangle drawn at about 100x310 on a professional Survey Land Plan, didn't really show the swapped land across from the clubhouse on the Land Plan, then five months later determine the triangle area is not wide enough for golf, widen it say 30 yards, and still have to buy another 3 acres somewhere five months later to make it work.  

Does that seem logical to you?   Does that seem to be a time when they'd only be doing stick routings?

[TEPaul]

David:

I will refrain from making the conversation about you; and I sincerely hope you will refrain from mentioning any of us are trying to make the conversation about you. And I think that should include you refraining from constantly mentioning any of us did that in the past.

I would like the conversation to strictly concentrate on the Francis story and how it actually worked and when it happened. I would like to concentrate on his entire story in his 1950 article too, and not just a single part of it. I would like to try to determine if his idea (his land-swap fix) served to solve some existing problems with the Merion East routing, and not just on #15 and #16 but perhaps on the last five holes as well, as Francis' story seems to indicated existed before his idea.

And I would like that conversation to also concentrate on how you interpreted his story in your essay, "The Missing Faces of Merion," because I think a number of us feel your interpretation of Francis' story is fairly central to an interpration of your essay.

It seems Cirba and Sullivan and perhaps Brauer or even Izatt and MacWood might like to do that too.

The question is, would you?

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Based on the theory you mentioned here a day or so ago about HDC offering Merion 100 acres of Johnson Farmland (although the section he mentioned measures out to 108.5 acres) as well as 21 acres of the Dallas Estate, I'd be curious if you think they were working with a fixed boundary during that time or a theoretical one?

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

If you want to get back on track on this subject, I have a proposal for you, and the others.

I propose a new thread be started because unfortunately this one is wandering again as all the other threads on Merion have too.

I propose a new thread be started with the first post being the three depictions that are part of your really good Post #520 on this thread. And I propose you take your text opinion off of the post and just make it those three depictions (and perhaps one like the third one that shows the entire property of Merion East and the residential development to the west).

I propose that anyone who really wants to analyze and discuss this subject seriously agree before we move on if we can even use the last depiction which includes that pink line which is your estimation of where that "approximate road" from the Nov 1910 Land Plan is overlaid on an aerial of the golf course.

I propose that if some who seriously want to discuss this think that can't be done that they cogently explain why they think that, and perhaps then we might all agree that the thread should end or be locked.

I would even be willing to explain why I am making this proposal, when the idea occured to make it and who I spoke with about it----if anyone is actually interested, AT THIS POINT,   , in knowing that.

[JESII]

Tom,

As it is, anyone interested in the Merion conversation knows where to go. What is the upside of starting a new thread? The downside is saturating the first page of the DG with Merion threads because history has shown that once one spawns off, others follow...

What's the upside of doing what you suggest?

[TEPaul]

Mike:

But failing starting another thread as I proposed above, I'd like to try to refocus on something David Moriarty said to you on this thread and really discuss it before moving on (or considering if it's even worth moving on).

Here's what he said:

"Mike,   Francis didn't say that they never considered any of the land west of where the road ultimately ended up.  He said there was some land on the west of the current course that didn't fit in with any layout plan.  HE GETS NO MORE SPECIFIC THAN THAT.  And he couldn't have meant exactly all the land west of the road because THERE WAS NO ROAD."


I think this very point and idea, particularly the last sentence and particularly the words capitalized, is precisely where every former thread on this subject seems to hit a road-block (even an "approximate-road-block" or a "theoretical approximate road-block" or even a "Hypothetical approximate road-block,"-----Sorry, I just couldn't resist that), and particularly with David Moriarty and even Jim Sullivan. I would like to discuss why that is and try to find some resolution to it.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

That's why I asked David if his theory about 100 acres of Johnson Land plus 21 acres of Dallas Estate was based on a fixed western boundary (and presumably a fixed northern boundary if the Johnson Farm land north of Haverford College's southern boundary wasn't offered originally) and was therefore either a fixed 121 acres or a hypothetical one.

As I mentioned, the first problem with the theory that it's a fixed boundary is that it measures at 108.5 acres + 21.1 acres for a total of 129.6, which no land transactions or internal records ever indicated.

The second problem if it's a fixed boundary is that to then have to swap for the 4.8 acres of land of the triangle, Merion would have had to somehow return to HDC 14.4 acres of land "that was not part of any golf layout" from that original 129.5 acres before November 1910 to get to a number purchased of 120.1 acres, which I find incomprehensible, especially since we know there were many golf layout plans, including a final five plans discussed with Macdonald in April 1911.

If it's a theoretical boundary, with the idea that they simply had to locate a subset of 117 within a larger set, then I'd like someone to tell me why HDC artificially subdivided the northern section of the Johnson Farm land when the only boundary that needed to be negotiated and settled was the western edge.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

With your #688 I know exactly what you mean on all your points.

But to just take one problem only on this post, I think the first problem, and particularly with David Moriarty and even Jim Sullivan, is that they are just fixated and fixed on the fact that the northern section at the top of the "L" of the old Johnson Farm was not considered for golf when both Barker and later MCC began trying to determine a golf course on that site. I don't think there is any question about that and they've admitted it many times.

And further, if they continue to maintain that and we have nothing to show them that is clearly determinable to the contrary, they will probably never come to believe otherwise or admit otherwise.

We can keep measuring things backwards and forwards to try to prove our point but the problem with that approach is I don't think any of us or certainly all of us have ever agreed on the measurements of the varioius sections of that property or even what may have been or may not have been considered at any point in time. If we are going to use these measurments and their individual and total numbers, the first thing we will all have to agree on is what they all are precisely and where they all are. Actually we can do that, but to do it we need to go back to square one and start again.

Personally, I don't think David Moriarty wants to do that although Jim Sullivan might.

And that's just the first problem of a number of others.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

When I say we have nothing that is clearly determinable to show them to convince them that that particular block at the north end of the top of the "L" was not completely taken out for consideration for golf holes when MCC began to work on that course or was working on developing a routing on it, I think both you and them realize there most certainly is one asset that could and certainly should convince even them otherwise and I think everyone should realize what it is, but of course considering some of the things it may show, such as a date or the attempt at golf holes and certainly a measurable line for that "approximate road."

Everyone knows I'm speaking of that contour survey map that was identified by Wilson to Oakley on Feb. 1, 1911.

If we can find a copy of that Wilson Committee contour survey map this entire Francis triangle discussion should be solved and resolved once and for all.

Did I tell you I believe I discovered another and hopefully successful avenue to try to find it? I thought of it yesterday because of something Bryan Izatt said on his post. I IMed him about it to call me but he hasn't yet. I would even offer that anyone who wishes to try to find it, do so, and certainly if the entity has all their data digitized and on-line. Find that map and whoever does it will become a research star on here. That's the way this place is; that seems to be our "currency."  

But if that entity is not online and not digitized, I will volunteer to just go there and maybe next week. I called them yesterday and asked what seems to be a simple question even though it wasn't for them. My question was; "Do you know if it was common a century ago in Delaware County for a subdivision plan to be filled at the County level and at the Recorder of Deeds, a subdivision plan like the one next to Merion GC by the name of the Haverford Development Co?" After about ten minutes their best historian got on the phone and said it was not uncommon a century ago even though I did not ask them to look for a Haverford Development Co subdivision plan.

I'll volunteer to go there and do that next week unless someone else wants to try to do it online. Find that particular contour survey map and you will be a real research star on here. Who wants to do it? I think it could also be one of the first PREconstruction contour survey maps used in golf even though I now suspect NGLA and Macdonald/Raynor may've had one and been the first I know of at this time!

Since we certainly know that with HDC and MCC with Lloyd and Connell working together in 1910 that both the golf course AND the residential subdivision were being done and developed together and in conjunction with one another, it is certainly possible that that truly significant Wilson Committee contour survey map of the golf course with it's all important "approximate road" (that may be completely measurable) on it may be filed with that Haverford Development Co's sub-division plan at the Recorder of Deeds, Media, Delaware Co, Pennsylvania.

We will see!    

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Usually it's rare when that type of thing is digitized and online, and I think you're heading in the right direction by going to the Montgomery County governmental archives.   If professionals were out there measuring and sub-dividing and creating contour maps, and such, I'm betting there might be a great find hidden in those vaults.

At this stage, I'm almost hoping for it to be as simple as what David and Sully believe in terms of swapping for that triangle before November 1910, but I just can't fit the other pieces into that puzzle, try as I might.   That accounts for my repeated questions to them, which with all due respect, I don't think have been convincingly answered.

I say that I wish it were that simple as all that, because I also completely agree with Jim Sullivan that nothing meaningful about Hugh Wilson's role or lack thereof in the creation of Merion East flows from any finding about when that Francis Swap event happened.   

Conceptually, I agree with Jim that guys who were the best club golfers and local "experts" like Wilson and Griscom  et.al. would have been out there envisioning holes before the property was originally purchased, because that's what we would be doing if we belonged to a club and had the opportunity.   Heck, that's what you did at Ardrossan, and that's what some of us are doing at Cobb's, so that part makes sense to me.

However, there is simply no record of any of that really happening between July 1910 and November 1910, a really good record of what happened from November thru April 1911 and beyond (that seems to include most of the routing and design activity).

David's essay wanted to use that gap, as well as the presence of a letter from CBM (before it was actually found and its contents disseminated) as evidence that CBM must have routed the course, but we now know that's not true and that after his initial one-day visit in June of 1910 didn't return to Merion until the project was almost ready to go, on April 6th, 1911.   

So, at the end of the day, I think it really matters not a whit whether Francis had his bicycle ride before Nov 1910 or after.   I can understand Jim's argument for it to happen before, but can't make the other pieces fit, as mentioned.   

However, whether it actually matters or not regarding actual architectural attribution of Merion, you can bet if you find that map I'll be the first one over your house.     

[JESII]

Jim,

Let's see if we can't get this back on track.

Your theory is that the Francis Swap was his idea that the golf course needed to go north of the Haverford College Boundary (which you think HDC artificially created as a subdivide of the Johnson Farm property, even though HG Lloyd was working with HDC) sometime before November, 1910.

Do you think he "swapped back" any land at that time as he stated in his recollections?

Thinking again what Francis said confidently about "fitting" the first 13 holes in place prior south of and along the clubhouse, and knowing they were in the final design stretch...

Thinking also about what Francis said about having workmen out there a day or so after his idea blasting the top off the quarry to create today's 16th greensite...

It seems weird to me that a professional engineer and surveyor would first select/obtain an area for golf in that triangle, trade back land in return across the street from the clubhouse, have the triangle drawn at about 100x310 on a professional Survey Land Plan, didn't really show the swapped land across from the clubhouse on the Land Plan, then five months later determine the triangle area is not wide enough for golf, widen it say 30 yards, and still have to buy another 3 acres somewhere five months later to make it work.  

Does that seem logical to you?   Does that seem to be a time when they'd only be doing stick routings?

Mike,

To start, I think the Francis Swap happened prior to 11/10/1910 because the triangle is represented on that Land Plan. Full Stop.

I know we've debated the likelyhood of that several times, so make of it what you will, I just disagree that they would have drawn an aesthetically pleasing line (your words...) that meant nothing to an actual golf course.

I don't think it's mandatory for them to have had the entire hole designed by that point...there's alot that goes into it after the location is established, would you disagree?

Regarding the "Quarryman at work within a day or so..."; in Lloyd, they had an ambassador owning the company that owned the land of an abandoned quarry...why exactly would Lloyd, or anyone at HDC argue them checking out the property a little more to see if it would work? There's not a single reason they couldn't have been blowing the top off in the late summer or fall of 1910.

It's interesting that both you and Tom disregard the Chairman of the Committee not being consulted on an architectural idea such as this on the basis that Lloyd owned the land...well, he owned it on behalf of Merion at that point...hardly in a position to "do whatever he wants"...whereas, prior to his purchase of the land in December 1910, he owned the company that owned the land...a much more influential/likely position to answering Francis' question about the Swap.




"Do I think they swapped back any land?"

Yes, but really just a reduced acreage needed in that area west of the clubhouse. I don't think this subset had a been defined beyond the western border of the Johnson Farm and the line across from Haverfor College.

I think they were looking at a squared off area (capped by the Haverford College boundary) totalling a 129 acres (when added to the land occupying the first 13 holes). The verbal agreement was to purchase 117 or that 129. This clearly means they were leaving 12 acres in that upper section out of their golf course but I think they had free reign to make the best golf course they could so long as it only took up 117 acres. I also think they would have been obligated to use the quarry, therefore keeping their holes on the eastern portion of that whole section.

Maybe I should pause to make sure that basic concept makes sense. I'm suggesting that they would have been able to use the land west of the clubhouse as they pleased so long as it left about 12 acres for the housing development. By "west of the clubhouse", I mean within the Johnson Farm boundary above Ardmore Ave. and below the border (extended) of Haverford College. Please confirm that you understand what I'm saying.

[JESII]

However, there is simply no record of any of that really happening between July 1910 and November 1910, a really good record of what happened from November thru April 1911 and beyond (that seems to include most of the routing and design activity).

Mike,

When the powers that be approve your plan at Cobbs Creek, do you think they wll back date the formation of the committee YOU will head to 2008 (or whenever you began the mission)? No, they will form a committee then, and name you Chairman...why would they name you Chairman?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I do think I understand you, but let me propose what I think Francis meant;

I think the routing for the final five holes was done before Francis had his idea...it may have even been during construction later than April 1911, but then I'd have some 'xplainin' to do with the April Board minutes..

I think Francis, as the surveyor, and probably along with the others, came to the realization that they really didn't fit for golf...the area wasn't wide enough as they had originally surveyed in trying to keep their purchase to an enclosed 117 acres.

I think they had to do this because I think HDC was already likely in the process of their own measuring, and laying out of property lines and subdividing the land that they believed was theirs to sell.

I think it was Francis who realized that perhaps there was some land of the original 117 Merion acquired weren't being used on any golf layout, so went to Lloyd to see if he thought HDC would be amenable to giving up some more land up near the top of the property (along what is today GHR) to get that width they needed (and doing so probably marked off the swath of what he needed by citing a fixed point...the Haverford College Southern boundary) as 130 yards wide there, continuing in a continuous arc westward and southward and then gracefully sloping back below the 14th green, and then conitinuing in a similar arc southward and only this time Eastward and called the bottom part land that could be given back to HDC for estate homes.

I think the other problem Francis had is he realized what was needed was not 117 acres, but 120, and that meant not only permission from Merion and membership, but also from HDC, who had represented a certain number of available acreage to the investment community.  

I don't think Wilson had anything to say about that.   Only Lloyd was on both sides of that transaction, and only he was positioned to make that call, which is why Francis went straight to his house.


Jim,

Just saw your last post.  We do agree that Wilson and those guys were very likely out there for months prior thinking up golf holes but there's just no record of it.

As regards your Cobb's hypothetical, I can't imagine any reason someone would do that and I'd question their sanity.  

Thankfully though we have about a 1500-post thread on here that documents much of our record of activity there.   

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Usually it's rare when that type of thing is digitized and online, and I think you're heading in the right direction by going to the Montgomery County governmental archives."


Mike:

You go to the Montgomery County governmental archives or more specifically the Montgomery County Recorder of Deeds in Norristown, Montgomery County, and search for that HDC subdivision plan and hopefully that all-important contour survey map of Merion East in 1910-1911, but I think I'll go search for it in Media, Delaware County, where Merion East and that HDC residential development, was, is, and probably or persumably or very likely always will be---------unless, of course, the likes of MacWood and Moriarty can actually prove with "verifiable facts" that Merion got that part of their history wrong too!!

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

My sly attempt at diverting while i went to Norristown you didn't work, huh? 

[TEPaul]

"I don't think it's mandatory for them to have had the entire hole designed by that point...there's alot that goes into it after the location is established, would you disagree?"


Sully:

You know I sure disagree and I've told you exactly why a number of times.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,   I've answered your question, even provided a rough diagram a few pages back.

TEPaul, knock yourself out trying to find the subdivision plan.   Last I checked (probably a year or so ago) it wasn't online, nor was there any sort of database indicating whether or not they had a record of it.  There is only so much one can do from across the country, without incurring substantial expense.  I'm glad to hear you guys are finally getting around to it.

[TEPaul]

Regarding the "Quarryman at work within a day or so..."; in Lloyd, they had an ambassador owning the company that owned the land of an abandoned quarry...why exactly would Lloyd, or anyone at HDC argue them checking out the property a little more to see if it would work? There's not a single reason they couldn't have been blowing the top off in the late summer or fall of 1910."



Sully:

On that point you seem completely unwilling to budge, as it seems we do too.

I'm sorry, but one thing I do know, since I did it around here for about fifteen years with farms and such, is real estate dealing and brokerage and contracts and contingencies and deeds and such and I just don't see Lloyd making a decision like that not only BEFORE he owned that land and even BEFORE HDC had made its initial offer to MCC to buy that land. I don't care how powerful Lloyd was or was with HDC at the time, I just don't see anybody blowing the top of a quarry off on somebody else's land that easily via a decision made in the middle of the night.

If you can't even understand THAT or the realistic logic of it, I guess we will never come together on this subject. I have never known something like that in all I did with those kinds of properties and I literally have never heard of anyone doing something like that and I don't care how tight they are or how well they know one another.

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