[TEPaul]

"There is only so much one can do from across the country,"



I think THAT has certainly become PATENTLY clear and is not now nor has it ever been the subject of even an iota of dispute or disagreement from anyone!!!

There was another way but you chose not to take it. You still haven't. We here took a subject we were not even looking into back then and basically provided all the additionally necessary research on it you should have done and could have done with us but chose not to, and failed to do on your own. Maybe you've never realized it but good researchers actually travel. I drove to Boston, New York, Pittsburgh, flew to Florida, and even from Philadelphia to California recently to Monterey to do research. What did you do? Nothing except sit at your computer as MacWood does pretty exclusively with these same significant subjects. It showed with you two and it still shows.

If anyone really wants to know a subject like this and get into it fully they just have to go there, and go there a lot and really do the research. Everyone does who is serious but for some reason you and MacWood seem to think you deserve to be the only exceptions. God only know why!

[Jud_T]

What's the over/under on pages for this sucker?

[TEPaul]

"Maybe I should pause to make sure that basic concept makes sense. I'm suggesting that they would have been able to use the land west of the clubhouse as they pleased so long as it left about 12 acres for the housing development. By "west of the clubhouse", I mean within the Johnson Farm boundary above Ardmore Ave. and below the border (extended) of Haverford College. Please confirm that you understand what I'm saying."


Sully:

You probably don't realize it right now but if that were actually true then HDC would be sacrificing about $10,000 more off THEIR average purchase price ($1,650) and close to $20,000 off potential real estate sales. On an $85,000 agreement I don't think they would do that no matter how close they were to Lloyd in the over-all 338.6 acre project.

And I very much doubt MCC would consider paying retail for up to ten more acres that would cost them $25,000 more on an original $85,000 deal that they said all along they did not want to go over $90,000.

Your concept and its logic is getting pretty bizarre and pretty weak, Sully, if you don't mind me saying so Old Boy!  


Jud:

I'll say 30!

[Jud_T]

I'd take over 30....

[TEPaul]

Sully:

I just reread what I quoted from you in #702. Forget about what I said in response. I do see what you mean. The numbers (acreage) seem to match pretty well but what doesn't work very well is that road if what you suggest they wanted to do ever happened. Residential real estate developers are pretty savy in how they use roads to maximize just about every bit of their lots and their sales value. There're actually some pretty well known formulas for it, and curvilinear roads versus geometric or straight roads is one of the most common. The fact is all the roads in that HDC development are curvilinear like Golf House Rd is. Have you ever driven then all?

[DMoriarty]

"There is only so much one can do from across the country,"



I think THAT has certainly become PATENTLY clear and is not now nor has it ever been the subject of even an iota of dispute or disagreement from anyone!!!

There was another way but you chose not to take it. You still haven't. We here took a subject we were not even looking into back then and basically provided all the additionally necessary research on it you should have done and could have done with us but chose not to, and failed to do on your own. Maybe you've never realized it but good researchers actually travel. I drove to Boston, New York, Pittsburgh, flew to Florida, and even from Philadelphia to California recently to Monterey to do research. What did you do? Nothing except sit at your computer as MacWood does pretty exclusively with these same significant subjects. It showed with you two and it still shows.

If anyone really wants to know a subject like this and get into it fully they just have to go there, and go there a lot and really do the research. Everyone does who is serious but for some reason you and MacWood seem to think you deserve to be the only exceptions. God only know why!

This is not only patently false, it is also asinine and entirely insulting.  You guys long ago proved yourselves unwilling and unable to deal with this material in a cooperative, productive, honest, and forthcoming manner, and the mere suggestion that I could have or should have come to guys is entirely preposterous.  Your actions continue to prove this almost daily! That you would suggest it in the context of information which you guys never bothered to look for makes it even more ridiculous.  

If you want productive conversation you are going to have to let go of this fantasy that you guys were willing OR able to add anything to my essay.  It is precisely this kind of revisionist crap and "it's not what you know but who you know" mentality that makes productive conversation impossible.

[JESII]

Sully:

I just reread what I quoted from you in #702. Forget about what I said in response. I do see what you mean. The numbers (acreage) seem to match pretty well but what doesn't work very well is that road if what you suggest they wanted to do ever happened. Residential real estate developers are pretty savy in how they use roads to maximize just about every bit of their lots and their sales value. There're actually some pretty well known formulas for it, and curvilinear roads versus geometric or straight roads is one of the most common. The fact is all the roads in that HDC development are curvilinear like Golf House Rd is. Have you ever driven then all?

Tom,

Then do others a favor and delete your initial response because plenty of people will get into analyzing that one before even reading this one.

[JESII]

"I don't think it's mandatory for them to have had the entire hole designed by that point...there's alot that goes into it after the location is established, would you disagree?"


Sully:

You know I sure disagree and I've told you exactly why a number of times.

I'm sure you have but I must have forgotten.

Why must the final hole design appear at the same time the location of the hole does?

[JESII]

Regarding the "Quarryman at work within a day or so..."; in Lloyd, they had an ambassador owning the company that owned the land of an abandoned quarry...why exactly would Lloyd, or anyone at HDC argue them checking out the property a little more to see if it would work? There's not a single reason they couldn't have been blowing the top off in the late summer or fall of 1910."



Sully:

On that point you seem completely unwilling to budge, as it seems we do too.

I'm sorry, but one thing I do know, since I did it around here for about fifteen years with farms and such, is real estate dealing and brokerage and contracts and contingencies and deeds and such and I just don't see Lloyd making a decision like that not only BEFORE he owned that land and even BEFORE HDC had made its initial offer to MCC to buy that land. I don't care how powerful Lloyd was or was with HDC at the time, I just don't see anybody blowing the top of a quarry off on somebody else's land that easily via a decision made in the middle of the night.

If you can't even understand THAT or the realistic logic of it, I guess we will never come together on this subject. I have never known something like that in all I did with those kinds of properties and I literally have never heard of anyone doing something like that and I don't care how tight they are or how well they know one another.

Tom,

You're the one that told us Lloyd recapitalized HDC, taking ownership of half the company before November 1910...why would he not be in a position to approve the Swap on HDC's behalf? I simply cannot imagine a rational explanation from you on this. Please elaborate.

This was not "someone else's land" as you always reference, it was Lloyd's as majority owner of HDC.

[JESII]

This is actually a very fundamental question I should have asked earlier and don't remember anyone asking.

Mike and Tom,

Do you believe the Francis Swap happened in March / April 1911 exclusively because Wilson said in 1916 that the Committee was established in January 1911 AND he wrote in April 1911 to the Board of MCC what had been accomplished to date?

Is there anything else binding you to that timeline?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Is it any coincidence that your last post was number "666" on this thread?"

Oh Jeeesus. That's horrifying. That's what Nacarrato once called Marucci on here for his part in the Merion bunker project.

TEPaul,

From my memory, Tommy called Damian Pascuzzo "666" in a thread about his design work on some old oil field in CA where Tommy didn't like the cart paths or something.  I can tell you, knowing Damian as I do, that this kind of remark can stick with a guy for a long, long time.  Not unlike some of the insults we have all hurled around here far too many times.

I thought I would correct that part of the Merion record.  BTW, how many of you tend to type Merion as "Meroin" and wonder if its fat fingers or just some kind of subconscious slip of the tongue?

BTW 2 - I would put the over under Waaaaaaay over 30 on this thread, but why?  Absent any new documents, how many times can a few people argue what the known documents mean?

BTW 3 - I add my kudos to TMac for humor, and to TMac and Mike Cirba for playing so nicely in the sand box......

BTW 4 - One thought occurred to me about those three acres at Merion in the triangle.........Naaaah!

That is all.

[JESII]

That is all.

Until the momentum turns, I bet...just like I told Cirba...

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

It's more trying to reconcile Francis with the meeting minutes overall and the creation of many golf layouts, including five different plans after March 1911 when they visited NGLA.

You also need to reconcile this with the issue of CBM saying in Apr 1911 that if they go with the plan he liked best that in his opinion they'd have the finest seven finishing holes of any inland course he was familiar with...the very holes that Francis fitted.

[JESII]

OK - that's a good point...I interpret Wilson's use of layouts and plans to mean different hole lengths and designs as opposed to different routings because he also uses the word course in the singular, which I interpret as routings.

I just did some measuring on Google Earth and saw there are 5 parallel opportunities at Merion for driving areas to generally meet the way they do at 15 and 16.

2 and 5 require 80 yards of width including 30 yards of rough
4 and 8 require 110 yards width including 30 yards of rough
11 and 12 require 80 yards of width including 22 yards of rough
14 and 18 require 105 yards of width including 50 yards of rough
15 and 16 require 120 yards of width including 40 yards of rough

This is the widest corridor of the 5 in the area of the drive...the base of the triangle...approximately.

Not sure what to make of it.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
You're the one that told us Lloyd recapitalized HDC, taking ownership of half the company before November 1910...why would he not be in a position to approve the Swap on HDC's behalf? I simply cannot imagine a rational explanation from you on this. Please elaborate.
This was not "someone else's land" as you always reference, it was Lloyd's as majority owner of HDC."


Jim:

The history and evolution of HDC is a pretty complex subject. Wayne tried to get their business history from the state but I don't know how complete or successful that was. Lloyd's part in it in 1910 is also pretty complex and sort of sketchy. I doubt he (and the so-called MCC "Guarantors") ever took an actual majority position in the company (I have never said that on here) and they may not have wanted him to for what should be pretty obvious reasons no matter how much he may've been helping them in this combined move of the MCC course to Ardmore and his obvious delivery to them of investors in both their recapitalized stock and lot purchases of their development to the west of the course.

As far as the quarrymen blowing the top off the quarry before Nov. 10, 1910 and before Lloyd owned it and ever before HDC ever even made an offer to MCC, is just sort of from my experiences working in that kind of  real estate and I don't exactly think I need to justify it because frankly I have never remotely subscribed to the idea that Francis' idea took place that early; not even close actually. That idea seems to be held by only Moriarty and you.

How much detail do you want on HDC?

[JESII]

How much detail do you want?

Just enough to put him in a position to approve the swap in October 1910...

[TEPaul]

"Just enough to put him in a position to approve the swap in October 1910..."


Personally, I do not believe Lloyd and his group from MCC ever held an actual majority position in HDC. That's all I can tell you about that but if you think that put him in a position to blow the top off a quarry he in no way owned at the time, well that's just your position and I do not agree with it.

[JESII]

Tom,

2 days ago you told me he doubled HDC's capitalization, thereby taking a half stake...didn't you?

With a half stake (not majority stake, but I already admitted to fudging what everyone says...), HDC, how did he not have an ownership position in that land?

[TEPaul]

"This is not only patently false, it is also asinine and entirely insulting.  You guys long ago proved yourselves unwilling and unable to deal with this material in a cooperative, productive, honest, and forthcoming manner, and the mere suggestion that I could have or should have come to guys is entirely preposterous.  Your actions continue to prove this almost daily! That you would suggest it in the context of information which you guys never bothered to look for makes it even more ridiculous.  

If you want productive conversation you are going to have to let go of this fantasy that you guys were willing OR able to add anything to my essay.  It is precisely this kind of revisionist crap and "it's not what you know but who you know" mentality that makes productive conversation impossible."



I understand that you may think that is patently false and also aninine and entirely insulting. Unfortunately for you I guess, I feel very strongly that Wayne and those in the administration of Merion that dealt with you and are cognizant of you and your essay and your defense of it on here do not feel that way at all. All of us mentioned there are pretty good friends and it has all been discussed. You can continue to say it is patently false, asinine and even insulting but that is just your opinion and not the opinion of others around here including the subject you chose----eg Merion. This is just the way it is and if you feel like trying to find out for yourself, I've already told you, and a few times----by all means be my guest and do it. I would even be willing to inform them all to expect to hear from you if you'd like me to. The opinion of all above is that you blew it. Even if, at this point, you actually tried to apologize, which I sure wouldn't bother holding my breath for, I doubt anyone would even care anymore. You are the one who made your own bed in this way, and now you're just going to have to sleep in it. I suppose you could start by asking Ran Morrissett to take that ridiculous essay of yours on Merion down but I doubt that would do much. That is why I would never consider doing some counter-point IMO piece on here about it----eg it is just not necessary at this point as no one I know thinks that essay is worth a damn to Merion, its history or anything else.

Sorry about that, fella, but you did a limited research job on that essay, you wrote it, you put it on here without consulting anyone from the club or here about it, you defended it on here and continue to do so, and you'll just have to get used to the consequences of what many people feel about that essay. You said on this DG you wanted to learn something about Merion and its history. You said the same thing in your essay. You said you welcomed any challenges to it. Well, that does not seem to be the case; it never has been the case, and Merion, its members and friends that I know and am aware of don't think it is the case or ever was.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

2 days ago you told me he doubled HDC's capitalization, thereby taking a half stake...didn't you?

With a half stake (not majority stake, but I already admitted to fudging what everyone says...), HDC, how did he not have an ownership position in that land?"



Sully:

Even though my families (both sides) were big time in the American financing business in the 19th and early 20th century that world of underwriting stock offerings and such was never anything I ever got into myself so I don't know how well I understand some of the technicalities and ramifications of it. For that we may want to hear from someone on here like Mike Sweeney who I believe works on Wall St.

But from the little I can tell about HDC it seems it was just a land and land development company and probably only involved in that Haverford development.

We know from what MCC said about it that the partners in that company cobbled together 338 acres that had an average per acre cost basis to them of $1,650. If that was their only asset that would basically capitalize them at $557,700. Once they actually had an agreement and sale to Lloyd with MCC for 117 acres for $726.50 that would've taken it down to $449, 650. Then in that MCC "circular" Lloyd says there was a capitalization of an additional $300,000 in stock subscription offering of which half was subscribed to by people not from MCC (I would assume that may've been the same people who were the partners in HDC and even the Philadelphia and Ardmore Land Co. that was the actual owner of the Johnson Farm in 1910 and whose partners seem to be pretty much the same people as HDC's) and the remaining half of the subscriptions were offered by Lloyd to MCC people some of whom had already subscribed from MCC (apparently Lloyd and those so-called "Guarnators").

Lloyd also said in that "circular" that if the offering was over subscribed the late comers would be treated pro-rata with the original subscribers so as not to unequitably treat late susbscribers. I have no idea if that stock offering was under-subscibed, right on the target or over-subscibed but it has always been my understand that with stock underwriters if their offering is under-subscribed they pretty much have to make up the difference to bring it up to the advertized subscription amount.

Then of course the HDC residential real estate land was marketed at $2,500 an acre so if it was sold out over time that would bring the HDC capitalization eventually up to $637,500 but then one needs to consider the cost of what Lloyd said the additional $300,000 subscription amount was going to be used for.

So you do the math or just look at it and you tell me how much control you think Lloyd had over HDC in the summer and fall of 1910.

I don't really know what Lloyd's actual stake in HDC's stock capitalization was at any time but it was probably never more than 10-20% totally but then you also have to remember that Lloyd's most useful roll for HDC was that he was delivering to them a real ready-made market---eg the real estate buyers of the HDC residential development and if one looks carefully at who actually bought those lots over time it is just amazing how many of them were MCC members and some of Lloyd's powerful friends such as E.J. Stotesbury, the managing partner of Drexel and Company, who appears to have bought 10-12 of those lots under the name of his personal secretary.

Still today there're an awful lot of Merion members who live in that residential neighborhood. Back in the early 1920s one of those lots was listed as owned by Hugh I. Wilson, right across from the 14th green, but I don't believe the poor guy lived long enough to move in.

[JESII]

Enough to allow them to blow away a few ricks from an abandoned quarry...I'd bet.

[Mike Cirba]

OK - that's a good point...I interpret Wilson's use of layouts and plans to mean different hole lengths and designs as opposed to different routings because he also uses the word course in the singular, which I interpret as routings.

I just did some measuring on Google Earth and saw there are 5 parallel opportunities at Merion for driving areas to generally meet the way they do at 15 and 16.

2 and 5 require 80 yards of width including 30 yards of rough
4 and 8 require 110 yards width including 30 yards of rough
11 and 12 require 80 yards of width including 22 yards of rough
14 and 18 require 105 yards of width including 50 yards of rough
15 and 16 require 120 yards of width including 40 yards of rough

This is the widest corridor of the 5 in the area of the drive...the base of the triangle...approximately.

Not sure what to make of it.

It's the only area where there is an alternate fairway that was created to let the average player negotiate around the quarry at the cost of a stroke...probably not considered necessary at first...which pushed the 14th green and 15th hole further west than they originally thought they needed.    

Don't forget also that CBM was big on providing alternate routes for the weaker player.

[Mike Cirba]

Thank you all for the warm welcome and kind words. I've been a lurker for quite a while and felt I would join when it felt right. I've got tremendous respect for what Ran has created in this forum.

The participants, in the main, bring a level of knowledge,passion and appreciation for the game rarely seen elsewhere. I along with others, have become concerned with some of the negative elements that have surfaced periodically. Gentlemen and ladies, we can strongly discuss our points WITHOUT baiting, antagonizing, degrading or besmirching others. Show some class!

This awesome resource we all are fortunate to participate in will have its standing and reputation lowered, and deservedly so, if we don't tidy up our act. There are some of the best minds in golf participating, AND LOOKING IN, on this great Golf Club Atlas site. Let us, with warmth, humor and an eye to the intelligent, continue to share and elevate this site to where it belongs...the most stimulating golf discourse on the planet. - Kris Schreiner

Guys,

I'd like all of us to heed Kris' wise post.

This personal sniping really gets old, I've been guilty as well, but we should all strive to raise our games here, if not out of simple respect for each other, than out of respect for the game we all love and for what Ran has provided for us here.

We can debate passionately and vigorously until the cows come home, but let's be gentlemen here and act like our mother's or wife's are watching.

'Nuff said.

[Phil_the_Author]

"'Nuff said."

What a MARVEL-ous statement! 

[Mike Cirba]

Phil,

I'm a big Hulk fan, from way back.   Many of the others as well, but the Mean Green Guy was my idol.

Like me here at times, I'm primarily misunderstood, and not nearly as frightening as I may seem. 

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