[TEPaul]

"In addition Tom...the further back the routing process and hole design process goes, the more CBM deserves credit because they were clearly leaning on him heavily in March and April 1911..."


Don't you mean the further forward (in time) it goes the more CBM deserves credit because they were leaning on him in March and April 1911? Or do you mean the other way (further back in time) and you think they felt they were far enough along with their routing and design throughout 1910 and 1911 that they basically went to see Macdonald to get him to show them some of the principles in the actual construction of architecture?

[JESII]

I mean the later chronologic date.

[JESII]

Sully:

Regarding your #646, are you saying you think the Francis story in 1950 only involved a "land swap" that created the 130 by 190 triangle before Nov 10, 1910 and not the determination that they needed not 117 acres to buy but actually an additional three acres to buy for 120? (the RR land was separate).

PS:
I guess it goes without saying with you that a land swap is generally a like-kind for like-kind nonremunerative exchange. At least that's the way we used to do it in real state brokerage.

I'm saying that the idea and agreement by Lloyd were like-for-like but that the eventual result of building up those holes necessitated the purchase of three more acres but they wouldn't have known that until they really designed them up on paper.

[TEPaul]

"I know they bought the 120 for the same $85,000 they agreed to pay for 117 but I am not sure what to make of that...any ideas?"


We talked about that when you were over here the other day. All I know is the agreement between HDC and MCC in Nov. 1910 was for 117 acres for $85,000 and when Lloyd transfered the property by deed from himself to MCCGA in July 1911, MCCGA got 120.1 acres for $85,000.

So I don't know if those additonal three acres were paid for or how or what happened. Maybe he gave those three acres to them but I doubt that. More likely would be they paid him separately. We do know the board voted on April, 19, 1911 to approve the payment of $7,500 for three additional acres for the golf course and we know that Lloyd bought 161 acres in Dec, 1910 and transfered over to MCCGA 120 in July so he obviously owned 41 more at that time and he passed three of them to MCCGA.

Have you ever been to a settlement Sully? I sure have. I was in real estate brokerage around here for about fifteen years, dealt with a lot of farms and such and probably went to at least 150 settlements over that time. Some pretty interesting stuff happens in settlements and one of the most common things is if there is some extra costs in the transaction even with land, it is not uncommon for that extra amount to be paid separately and in cash. The most common reason for it is the transfer tax. I'm sure they had one back then so rather than pay the transfer tax on $92,500 they just might have kept it at $85,000 despite the additional three acres and $7,500 and just paid Horatio $7,500 separately.

[Mike Cirba]

Trying to keep up, and will read the last few hours back and forth shortly, but would mention that along with Tom Paul and I believing the adjustments took place ONLY on the western border, I also believe that Professional Architect Jeff Brauer has a similar crazy belief. 

[JESII]

True...so far...but I chalked that up to him simply wanting to run with the leaders...once the momentum starts to swing Jeff will jump on board...

[TEPaul]

"I think the swap created the triangle, but I don't think at that point they had any idea of what its dimensions would be...the end result was 130 X 190."


Sully:

I think we are getting warmer in understanding your thesis but let me see if I understand you as well as I think I might. Are you saying you think the Francis "land swap" idea for which he rode his bike to see Horatio in the middle of the night took place before Nov. 10, 1910?

And are you also saying you think at that point (before 11/10/1910) nobody knew what the dimensions of that triangle should be or were?

Is that because you think they may've had to adjust the length and width of #15 and #16 at some point later because the lengths and width weren't right or because they never bothered to measure that triangle and land swap in the first place?

But essentially you're saying the only thing that Francis' was talking about in his 1950 story was that land-swap triangle creation before Nov. 10 1910 even if it wasn't measured at the time?

[JESII]

bingo!

[Mike Cirba]

True...so far...but I chalked that up to him simply wanting to run with the leaders...once the momentum starts to swing Jeff will jump on board...

Good one!

Not sure I see Jeff as a bandwagon kind of guy, but self-delusions can be fun. 

[JESII]

Agreed, but we're all rooting for the Phillies these days...

[TEPaul]

"I'm saying that the idea and agreement by Lloyd were like-for-like but that the eventual result of building up those holes necessitated the purchase of three more acres but they wouldn't have known that until they really designed them up on paper."


Now wait a minute Sully! Now you're saying you think the idea of Francis and the instant agreement by Lloyd took place before Nov 10, 1910 and it created that triangle even though they didn't measure the size or dimensions of it before Nov 10, 1910?

And now you are also saying that the eventual result of building up those holes (when do you think that "eventual" result took place?) necessitated the purchase of three more acres?

And when you refer to "those" holes and creation of that triangle for them before Nov 10, 1910 and then later the building up of them eventually, are you only referring to the area of #15 that is within app. 170 yards of that hole and the area that is about 180 yards off the back tee of #16 which we all know measures out to that 130 yard wide and 190 yard long triangle that eventually got built with the road along side it that Francis seemed to be referring to in his story?

So it seems you're now saying the early land-swap that created that triangle back before Nov 10, 1910 and the additonal three acres for the building up of about the second half of #15 and about the first half of #16 eventually was the entire sum and substance of the land swap AND additional three acre purchase that was referred to and voted on and approved at the April 19, 1911 board meeting. Is that correct?

[Mike Cirba]

Two problems come to mind really quickly...

You guys are willing to take Francis literally when he mentions/recalls the 130x190 dimension he ended up with at the base of the triangle, yet aren't willing to take him at his word when he mentions workmen out there blasting the top off the quarry in a day or so later.

I also still do not understand why Merion in April 1911 would need to "swap" anything in trade if they simply needed to add three acres to their original intended total subset of 117 out of a larger set of say 130 as some combo of Johnson/Dallas Land.  

How could a hypothetical return of land that they weren't going to buy because they didn't need it for their golf course be "adjacent" to anything?

[TEPaul]

Mike:

I was kind of hoping that we wouldn't have to bring up those two problems you mentioned in #661 quite yet and with Sully since we all seem to be getting along so well in the last few days.

 I mean we brought those two problems up in the long running discussions on this in 2009 and the answers we got were not what I would call very satisfactory if we got answers at all from particularly the essayist on those two problems or points.

But if you insist let's deal with your first problem first and leave your second problem for later after we hopefully resolve this one in the next ten pages.

Your first problem:

“You guys are willing to take Francis literally when he mentions/recalls the 130x190 dimension he ended up with at the base of the triangle, yet aren't willing to take him at his word when he mentions workmen out there blasting the top off the quarry in a day or so later.”


This is what the essayist of the essay, “The Missing Faces of Merion” had to say about that in his essay:

“What of Francis’ description of the quarrymen blasting off the top of a hill “a few days” after the land exchange, so that the 16th green could be built? According to Francis’ description of events, the entire matter, from the time of Francis’ late night epiphany to the time the quarrymen blasted the green site, took place within a couple of days. But two separate legal entities could never have completed a formal exchange of titles in a couple of days, especially since Merion’s land was encumbered. Francis’ recollection of the timing of the timing may have been hyperbole, but if not, then it makes sense only if there was no formal land exchange, but rather a change to the terms made before Merion actually optioned the 117-acre parcel in November 1910. And if the hilltop was actually blasted a few days after this alteration, then it was when the Haverford Development Company controlled the land, not Merion Cricket Club. Given Lloyd’s close relationship with both, this seems entirely possible.”




And I talked with Sully the other day about that and again today. He basically said he thinks Lloyd was so much in control of HDC before Nov. 10, 1910 that he wouldn’t have minded if that quarryman blew the shit off the top of the quarry in a day or so even if at that time Horatio not only didn’t own it but HDC had not yet made their offer to MCC for the land!

[Mike Cirba]

also thinking...

as Francis was a Surveyor and Engineer, don't you think they'd measure exactly what they anticipated using prior to securing 117 acres in November 1910, or at least by the time Lloyd bought the property in later December 1910?  

Francis' comments seem to be all about "Fitting the holes", which to me sounds at least as much about width, as about length.

For instance, at the time he came up with his idea, he was rather sure they'd already "fitted" 13 holes in south of and along the clubhouse, and that had to be more than just a stick routing or they might have had much the same issue over there, correct?

I think the odds of the Francis Swap happening after April 1911 are greater than it happening before November, 1910, but I haven't fully fleshed out my thesis yet.

[Mike Cirba]

So Jim...what in your theory was the Francis Swap?

The original pre-Nov 1910 idea that they needed more land north..

or

The later idea that they needed more width in those areas and an additional three acres?


Also, a bit of housekeeping if I might...

Here's Hugh Wilson's 1916 description of the creation of the committee for an article about agronomy P&O asked him to write;




One will note that he never says he wasn't involved in what was happening at Merion prior to the creation of the committee...only that the committee was created (which we know he headed) at this time.   In fact, it would be very strange indeed for a club like Merion to appoint him as head of the committee for their new course if he hadn't been previously involved.

Similarly, Francis tells us he did his work after being "added" to the committee that included the others.   While he may have meant added at the same time the committee was formed, it doesn't seem from his comments to be possible he was out there going rogue earlier.

[JESII]

Are you guys serious? Or is this a Who's on first routine?



The 117 acre agreed purchase had no exactly defined boundary. Who disagrees with that?

[TEPaul]

"also thinking...

as Francis was a Surveyor and Engineer, don't you think they'd measure exactly what they anticipated using prior to securing 117 acres in November 1910, or at least by the time Lloyd bought the property in later December 1910?

,….. but I haven't fully fleshed out my thesis yet.   "


Look Mike, maybe you haven't quite fleshed out your thesis yet but Sully has fleshed out his thesis and the essayist sure has fleshed out his thesis or theory or hypothesis or whatever he thinks it is and for a number of reasons I don't think the following from his essay was ever intended to be all that applicable:

To wit;

“I encourage you to look at this essay in a similar light. While by no means a great work like Merion, it too is a work in progress. The core of my thesis is in place, but I hope and expect that my analysis will evolve as I continue to study the topic and as others challenge my ideas. Thank you in advance to those who will read, consider, and constructively challenge the work.”  


But I have fully fleshed out my thesis (all 130 yards wide and 190 yards long of it) on the architectural history of Merion East in 1910 and 1911. It’s posted in full in #641 and I would appreciate it if you would read it entirely and get back to me with constructive criticism, particularly regarding what I think Francis was all about in this remarkable event in history. Thank you in advance for reading, considering and constructively challenging “my work” (#641), and particularly my conclusion that Francis very likely or probably or presumably had a queer eye for Horatio and that was the only reason this ruse that Francis the engineer/surveyor was on the Wilson Committee which may’ve been a ruse too was concocted. Frankly, I don’t think Francis was a surveyor/engineer at all. I think he was a very accomplished singer who had a remarkable falsetto voice and a burning interest in the Rules of Golf. He was a long time member of the USGA's Rules of Golf Committee and I have it on good authority from my friends in Far Hills on the Rules Committee that after Francis would get done defending the stymie in joint R&A and USGA Rules Committee meetings he could launch into one helluva falsetto rendition of O Solo Mio or Boogy-Woogy CoCo Bop!

Hey, wait a minute, I think that last song was like from the late '40s or early '50s. I must be confused. I should go now.  

[JESII]

Mike,

I am happy to take Francis at his word...and the primary reason Lloyd would have been the guy to ask is because he had control of HDC at the time and could make real estate decisions for Merion as well...prior to Wilson being named chairman...at which point it would have been his call to accept the idea.

[JESII]

Also note that in Wilson's initial report to the board he never says work began in January, he leaves the begining date of their efforts open.

Not until 5 years later did he write the words you just posted...not that they are inaccurate, but appointing the committee is wholly different from the committeemen working on a project...

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Is it any coincidence that your last post was number "666" on this thread?    

Jim,

Why would they have made sure the holes "fit" south of Ardmore Ave. and up and along the clubhouse, yet only did a stick routing for the final five?  

I think these guys were more meticulous than that.

Don't also forget that they were working to finish acquistion of the Dallas Estate at that time and also possibly working to no avail to acquire some acres of land south of the Johnson Farm where they hoped to build better holes that didn't cross Ardmore Avenue, per the article I posted yesterday.

I would also tend to agree that the 117 acres had no boundary, but all of us agreeing to that still makes no sense when we read what the Board wrote in April 1911 about swapping land already purchased for land adjacent.   No sense at all.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Is it any coincidence that your last post was number "666" on this thread?"


Oh Jeeesus. That's horrifying. That's what Nacarrato once called Marucci on here for his part in the Merion bunker project. Would you mind emailing Nacarrato and telling him the original Merion document altering TEPaul must be channeling the evil Merion bunker destroying Marucci for some odd reason? If you can't reach him by email you might call him at a place called Max's Lounge. I think it is somewhere on Ventura Highway! If there's a little deuce coupe parked outside he is definitely in there.  



"Also note that in Wilson's initial report to the board he never says work began in January, he leaves the begining date of their efforts open."


Mike:

I tried to sell an explanation to Sully on the phone on the reason for that one but he wasn't buying. I tried to tell him that it wasn't very likely that Wilson needed to tell the MCC board in his report to it at the April 19, 1911 board meeting that his committee had been appointed in early January since the board members probably appointed him and like four months before! It wasn't as if Wilson's report needed to report what he was doing to the likes of you and me and Sully and Moriarty; he was reporting to people who knew damn well what he was doing and when or they probably wouldn't have been on MCC's board.


"I am happy to take Francis at his word...and the primary reason Lloyd would have been the guy to ask is because he had control of HDC at the time and could make real estate decisions for Merion as well...prior to Wilson being named chairman...at which point it would have been his call to accept the idea."

Sully:

You know you really should stop saying that. Even if this did take place in 1911 there is no real reason for Francis to go to Wilson first about this land-swap for permission even if he was the chairman of the committee. Francis was asking for permission to swap land and Wilson didn't own the land and couldn't make that decision, only Lloyd could and they all knew he put himself in that position in Dec 1910 for that very reason. Hell, even if Francis called PRESIDENT Evans his own self and rode his little scooter over to see the Big Man in 1911 he obviously would've told him to scooter on down and  ask Lloyd since he (Evans) didn't own the land either. Wilson would've told Francis the same thing for the same reason, even though Hughie may've let Dickie smoke some good Merion Blue grass before sending him on his scootering way in the middle of the night.

I mean, look, Francis seems like a pretty savy guy to me. He obviously knew instead of scootering his ass all over town and getting told by a couple of guys to go ask the guy who owned the land, he just scootered the one mile to Horatio's by the light of the moon and asked the Boss of the Merion Moss. Plus, you should remember that it was very likely, or probable, or presumable, that Francis had a queer eye for Lloyd, and not for Hugh or Allen. I mean Hugh was kinda cute but Horatio was just flat-ass RICH!
 

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

You may have stumbled onto something.

How exactly was one appointed to that Committee?

You know, instead of Merion selecting 5 of the lowest six handicaps in the club of their couple hundred golfing membership as their self-appointed golf "experts" to design their new course, perhaps Mr. Lloyd, he of the very large wallet and probably Epicurean, and possibly Bacchanalian tastes and with total control of both sides of the deal as well as hundreds of acres of basic wilderness land outside Philadelphia took it upon himself to hire the cutest and most dashing (not to mention "sporting") of the club's male gentry, and just told them they'd better get used to the idea of spending a LOT of time together out in the wilds over the next several months.

No wonder we're so confused as to whether they were designing or constructing....they sure didn't leave much of a record as to their daily activities, which in this light, is hardly surprising.  

[Tom MacWood]

Stumbled being the operative word.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

That's twice in two days you made me laugh out loud.     First, your mellowed-out Rastafarian "sodomites" comment on the other thread and now this one!  

Good on you...who knew?   I mean...WHO THE F*(@#  KNEW?!?!    

One more of those rib-rippers and I'm going to start a thread titled "My Close Friend Tom MacWood's List of Courses that one Could Pay and Play before Bethpage Black", and I'm going to copy over your list and hopefully it will have a long and productive life.

Good Show, old boy.   I knew I loved you deep down, in sort of a Biblical way.  

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
You may have stumbled onto something.
How exactly was one appointed to that Committee?"


MikeC:

How was one appointed to that Committee?

Well, if we really want to know we should just do the research into not just Merion's (MCC) contemporaneous history of the time we are studying but also do the research into who the people were on that committee which unfortunately the contemporaneous records of clubs never bothered to explain much about for the simple reason that club administrative meetings and their minutes are not exactly in the business or for the purpose of recording what they are doing for history's sake (such as ourselves a century later).

They are more in the business and practice of recording what they are doing at the time so they can continue to understand what they are in the process of doing and what they have just done from meeting to meeting, essentially so they can pick up efficiently where they left off a month or so ago.

But it would not surprise me at all if we have a few on here who have never been to these clubs we discuss or who have frankly never even been on a board or committee of clubs like these who will tell us with total assurance that this is just not the way it works or the way it is.

By the way, Michael, did I detect a bad, if inconseqential smell between your post and mine? I think I did and that is who I mean tells us these kinds of things even if he has never seen them first hand or experienced them himself!


But honestly, would you care to know why and how people like that Wilson Committee members got onto that committee and how so many others over the years get onto committees at a club like Merion? If you would like to know I think I can shed some light on that because I have known most all the people who run that club and its committees for the last thirty years and I have talked to some of them about precisely this?

Or would you prefer to have someone who has never even been to Merion the way it works or doesn't work, like that bad smell I think just happened by in the recent posts between us?  

You tell me--you have that choice as everyone on here does.

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