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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #300 on: August 12, 2010, 04:01:18 PM »
Peter,

If there are so many conversations going on, I am not sure why you want to start another one.   I don't have time for another one.  

That isn't my thesis.  Here is the synopsis:

While Hugh I. Wilson is credited with designing the great Merion East course that opened in 1912, he did not plan the original layout or conceive of the holes. H.H. Barker first sketched out a routing the summer of 1910, but shortly thereafter Barker’s plans were largely modified or perhaps even completely replaced by the advice provided by the famous amateur golfers, C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigham who provided their written opinion of what could be done with the land. Richard Francis and H.G. Lloyd of Merion also contributed to the routing plan. After the course was planned and land finally purchased, Merion appointed Hugh Wilson and his “Construction Committee” to build the golf course. Immediately thereafter, the Construction Committee departed for NGLA so that Macdonald and Whigham could teach them how to build the golf holes at Merion East. A few months later, before Merion began major construction, Macdonald and Whigham again visited the site and further helped Wilson and his Committee with the plans. In the spring and summer of 1911, Wilson and his Committee built the golf course, leaving many of the hazards to be built later. In the spring of 1912, Wilson traveled abroad to study the great golf holes and to get ideas for the course. He continued to work on the course for years to come. Whatever our modern impressions of the singularity of Merion’s original design, multiple reports indicated that the concepts for at least some of the original holes were derived from great golf holes abroad. At least one report indicated, “Nearly every hole is patterned after some famous hole abroad.” Other contemporaneous commentators singled out the famous “Redan” and “Alps” holes, noting that each inspired a hole at Merion. While my research is in the early stages, my preliminary view is that many of the original holes at Merion East were based upon the conceptual underpinnings of the great holes, as understood by Macdonald and Whigham.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 04:06:28 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #301 on: August 12, 2010, 04:54:05 PM »
Off the top of my head, it could be revised as follows . . . .

While Hugh I. Wilson is credited with designing the great Merion East course that opened in 1912, he did not plan neither determined the original basic layout or nor did he conceive of the original holes. H.H. Barker first sketched out a routing the summer of 1910, but shortly thereafter Barker’s plans were largely modified or perhaps even completely replaced pursuant to by the advice provided by the famous amateur golfers, C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigham who provided their written opinion of what could be done with the land. Richard Francis and H.G. Lloyd of Merion also contributed to the routing plan. After the course was preliminarily planned and land finally purchased secured, Merion appointed Hugh Wilson and his “Construction Committee” to build the golf course in early 1911. Wilson was in contact with Macdonald almost immediately, and in March 1911, the month before construction would begin, the Construction Committee departed for NGLA so that Macdonald and Whigham could teach them how to lay out and build the golf holes at Merion East.  After reviewing Macdonald's plans and working with Macdonald and Whigham for two days, Wilson and his Committee returned to Merion and rearranged the course based upon what they had learned, and came up with five different plans.  A few months weeks later, just before Merion began major construction, Macdonald and Whigham again visited Merion to reinspect the site and choose a final routing plan.    After inspecting the various versions as set out by the Committee, Macdonald and Whigham approved a final layout plan, which was then presented to the board as the plan Macdonald had approved. further helped Wilson and his Committee with the plans. In the spring and summer of 1911, Wilson and his Committee built the golf course, leaving many of the hazards to be built later. In the spring of 1912, Wilson traveled abroad to study the great golf holes and to get ideas for the course. He continued to work on the course for years to come. Whatever our modern impressions of the singularity of Merion’s original design, multiple reports indicated that the concepts for at least some of the original holes were derived from great golf holes abroad. At least one report indicated, “Nearly every hole is patterned after some famous hole abroad.” Other contemporaneous commentators singled out the famous “Redan” and “Alps” holes, noting that each inspired a hole at Merion. While my research is in the early stages, my preliminary view is that many of the original holes at Merion East were based upon the conceptual underpinnings of the great holes, as understood by Macdonald and Whigham.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 04:57:43 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #302 on: August 12, 2010, 04:58:35 PM »
Obviously this will explode shortly, so I'll try to get an answer quickly before that...

How do you address the comments by Merion's leadership crediting Wilson with the lions share of the finished product? Don't have the direct quotes at the moment.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #303 on: August 12, 2010, 05:00:27 PM »
Obviously this will explode shortly, so I'll try to get an answer quickly before that...

How do you address the comments by Merion's leadership crediting Wilson with the lions share of the finished product? Don't have the direct quotes at the moment.

I think if you actually look at them you'll find that the comments by Merion's leadership are entirely consistent with what I wrote above.    In fact they are the basis for much of it. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #304 on: August 12, 2010, 05:45:20 PM »
Too funny.

And he can't even answer the most basic of questions;  what factual evidence is there of CBM's involvement with Merion on any level in the second half of 1910, the year David contends that he designed the layout.

In fact, there is more evidence that Alex Findlay did it as he was at least in Philadelphia practicing architecture at the time and we know he also advised Wilson.

David asks for proof and facts related to Wilson's involvement, yet when asked a simple dieect question has NO EVIDENCE at all of his own to substantiate CBM's role.  None.

That's why we have Tolhurst and a host of other deflections and diversions here,,,to avoid the cold hard case of the disappearing facts.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #305 on: August 12, 2010, 06:04:06 PM »
David,

This is meant as a serious question. Something just kind of clicked for me and as we are talking late 1910-1911, wasn't Raynor working with CBM at this time on all of his projects? If that is the case, why isn't his name mentioned by anyone as I would have expected it?


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #306 on: August 12, 2010, 07:10:37 PM »
Obviously this will explode shortly, so I'll try to get an answer quickly before that...

How do you address the comments by Merion's leadership crediting Wilson with the lions share of the finished product? Don't have the direct quotes at the moment.

When? After the East was built but before the West? After the West was built? After the major redesign in the 20s? After he died?

Whatever the case we can only hope the leadership wasn't affected by whatever is affecting you, TEP, Wayne and Mike.

From hiding documents to altering transcriptions to gross exaggeration to justifying historic inaccuracies. Wow!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 07:12:14 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #307 on: August 12, 2010, 07:23:20 PM »
David,

This is meant as a serious question. Something just kind of clicked for me and as we are talking late 1910-1911, wasn't Raynor working with CBM at this time on all of his projects? If that is the case, why isn't his name mentioned by anyone as I would have expected it?



Wasn't the course built by Johnson Contractors of Boston? I believe they were involved at NGLA too.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #308 on: August 12, 2010, 08:30:43 PM »
Tom,

What does your comment, "Wasn't the course built by Johnson Contractors of Boston? I believe they were involved at NGLA too." have to do with my question about Raynor?


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #309 on: August 12, 2010, 08:32:05 PM »
Obviously this will explode shortly, so I'll try to get an answer quickly before that...

How do you address the comments by Merion's leadership crediting Wilson with the lions share of the finished product? Don't have the direct quotes at the moment.

When? After the East was built but before the West? After the West was built? After the major redesign in the 20s? After he died?



Any time...your choice.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #310 on: August 12, 2010, 08:33:45 PM »
Also Tom...tell me about the purchase and lease-back inaccuracy.

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #311 on: August 12, 2010, 08:59:09 PM »
Tom MacWood,

When was the final course design completed?

Who designed the course?

Where is your factual evidence?

Let's see it...quit diverting with nonsense.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #312 on: August 12, 2010, 09:59:39 PM »
Tom,

What does your comment, "Wasn't the course built by Johnson Contractors of Boston? I believe they were involved at NGLA too." have to do with my question about Raynor?



Raynor was just getting started in construction in 1910-11, Sleepy Hollow and Piping Rock were his first two construction jobs. He was a local Long Island engineer/surveyor at the time. It is not surprising Merion (and Macdonald) would turn to the more experienced construction firm. Colt used Johnson as well at Detroit and Toronto when he first came over.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #313 on: August 12, 2010, 10:06:17 PM »
Obviously this will explode shortly, so I'll try to get an answer quickly before that...

How do you address the comments by Merion's leadership crediting Wilson with the lions share of the finished product? Don't have the direct quotes at the moment.

When? After the East was built but before the West? After the West was built? After the major redesign in the 20s? After he died?



Any time...your choice.

After the major redesign of the 20s he deserved a large percentage of the credit.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #314 on: August 12, 2010, 10:07:46 PM »
Also Tom...tell me about the purchase and lease-back inaccuracy.

I don't know...what are you talking about? Since when have you cared about inaccuracy?

Phil_the_Author

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #315 on: August 12, 2010, 10:16:43 PM »
Tom,

So instead of answering my question you chose to surmise a reason I might be asking and chose to address that?

I am asking the question for a COMPLETELY different reason. If you had simply asked me why I asked it I would have given an answer. I am interested in why Raynor was not there as by the time the committee met with CBM that he & Raynor had begun working together on both Piping Rock & Sleepy Hollow.

As CBM viewed Raynor as an outstanding engineer and construction person, why wasn't he included in the meeting? That he was or wasn't has no bearing on who routed &/or designed Merion, just that I am quite surprised that he wasn't included in either the meeting with Wilson & the Committee at NGLA or later in 1911 when the decision on the routing and course was finalized...

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #316 on: August 12, 2010, 10:31:24 PM »
"When? After the East was built but before the West? After the West was built? After the major redesign in the 20s? After he died?
Whatever the case we can only hope the leadership wasn't affected by whatever is affecting you, TEP, Wayne and Mike.
From hiding documents to altering transcriptions to gross exaggeration to justifying historic inaccuracies. Wow!"




THAT, is an entirely gratuitous and wholly pathetic post. Noone inspired it in the preceding posts; it was pretty much just gratuitously Tom MacWood.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #317 on: August 12, 2010, 10:33:49 PM »
Phil-the-author
What meeting?

How would have Macdonald (or Merion) known if Raynor was an excellent construction person in late 1910 or early 1911? He had yet to complete a construction job. You can not compare the Raynor of 1917 or 1922 to the Raynor of 1910. He was an unknown quantity.

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #318 on: August 12, 2010, 10:56:11 PM »
"Tom Paul,

Had you spent much time at all studying the minutes and other historical data about Merion concerning the dates up until the opening of the East Course prior to David's essay? I don't see how or why you would have, but a clear answer to this question will help things move along.

My own observation is that David did a ton of research from a distance (from the archives of either club) and found several very interesting items that we on this site hadn't seen or discussed before then. After its posting on here, I thought you and Wayne went to MCC and found several other very interesting items.

Is this a fair, albeit very brief, summary of who had what and when?"




Sully:

As I've said many times on here (to no attention I suppose) I (we) never studiied that era David Moriarty wrote about in his essay. Wayne and I were studying William Flynn's early career at the time that involved Merion and that came after 1911.

Moriarty told us that he had some new and theretofore unknown information about the creation of Merion at Ardmore (it all happened in the oddest way via a funny email from Pat Mucci----eg I have the entire email chain saved). I actually encouraged him via that group email to come back on GOLFCLUBATLAS and he said he would if he could put that essay on Golfclubatlas.com, and then he asked if we thought we and Merion could handle it. We said to him that of course they could. Then he took about two months to put it on this webstite.  I still have all those emails leading up to his putting that essay on here. We asked him if we could see what he was writing about and he refused it to us. The only ones he said he had showed it to were Tommy Nacarrato, Tom MacWood, Pat Mucci and Ran Morrissett. It is all in those emails back then from Moriarty; again, I have them saved in a file as at that point I suspected they may become useful someday.

Would you like to see those emails? I think I have them filed under "Moriarty" ;)

Would you like to see Moriarty's and MacWood's communications with Merion about access? They are most interesting and probably tell a pretty indicative story. I'm not saying I have them; I'm only asking if you'd be interested in seeing them. They (Moriarty and MacWood) may tell you that should be considered "priveleged information" but the question is who was the "privileged information" agreement with? ;)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 11:01:55 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #319 on: August 12, 2010, 11:02:31 PM »
David,

This is meant as a serious question. Something just kind of clicked for me and as we are talking late 1910-1911, wasn't Raynor working with CBM at this time on all of his projects? If that is the case, why isn't his name mentioned by anyone as I would have expected it?

I don't think that either Piping Rock or Sleepy Hollow began until 1911, so I am not sure there was any overlap.

But whether or not there was overlap, I wouldn't expect Raynor to have been there.   So far as I can tell, Macdonald was not directly involved in building the course.  That appears to have been all Wilson. While CBM was still advising Merion during construction, his help seems to have tapered off once Macdonald approved the final layout plan.  

In fact, after he approved the final layout I am not  sure whether or not Macdonald ever even saw Merion East again.  He may have; he did include Merion's redan as an example in his article on the Redan concept, but then he obviously knew about it from the plan.  So I am not sure.

This is what makes Merion such an unusual case and what throws so many people off, and why I have stayed away from the attribution debate.  Merion was not a CBM course like NGLA or Mid-Ocean were, because Macdonald (or Macdonald's man, Raynor) didn't building it.  He helped them through the design stage, but that was it.   That said, it seems to have been initially a CBM course in principle and in plan.  
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 11:21:08 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #320 on: August 12, 2010, 11:08:47 PM »
TEP
I don't doubt I discouraged him from sharing anything with you or Wayne based on my experiences with my Crump essay and the campaign you two went on to discredit before I had even presented it. Actually I don't recall mentioning anything about you two to him, but anyone observing GCA at the time would have known what your reaction would be. You two are wound a bit tight.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 11:12:39 PM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #321 on: August 12, 2010, 11:11:10 PM »
Sully:

As I've said many times on here (to no attention I suppose) I (we) never studiied that era David Moriarty wrote about in his essay. Wayne and I were studying William Flynn's early career at the time that involved Merion and that came after 1911.

Moriarty told us that he had some new and theretofore unknown information about the creation of Merion at Ardmore (it all happened in the oddest way via a funny email from Pat Mucci----eg I have the entire email chain saved). I actually encouraged him via that group email to come back on GOLFCLUBATLAS and he said he would if he could put that essay on Golfclubatlas.com, and then he asked if we thought we and Merion could handle it. We said to him that of course they could. Then he took about two months to put it on this webstite.  I still have all those emails leading up to his putting that essay on here. We asked him if we could see what he was writing about and he refused it to us. The only ones he said he had showed it to were Tommy Nacarrato, Tom MacWood, Pat Mucci and Ran Morrissett. It is all in those emails back then from Moriarty; again, I have them saved in a file as at that point I suspected they may become useful someday.

Would you like to see those emails? I think I have them filed under "Moriarty" ;)

Would you like to see Moriarty's and MacWood's communications with Merion about access? They are most interesting and probably tell a pretty indicative story. I'm not saying I have them; I'm only asking if you'd be interested in seeing them. They (Moriarty and MacWood) may tell you that should be considered "priveleged information" but the question is who was the "privileged information" agreement with? ;)

It should surprise no one at this point that your version of how this came about is inaccurate. Among other errors, I never said I would come back only if I Ran would post my essay on the website.  I did provide you guys a list of topics I would be covering and asked whether you were willing to have an open and frank commentary about Merion.  You guys said you were but obviously you were not.    It was Patrick that leaked word of my essay, much to my chagrin, and you guys lead the charge to demand I post it immediately.    So much for your claim that Merion had no warning.   Wayne is a member there, isn't he?  

Do the officials at Merion with whom I communicated know that Wayne forwarded you those emails?   And that now you are planning on distributing them?    I knew you have no class, but I had hoped Merion had more class than that.    Or perhaps they don't know?   Maybe they need to be told how you and Wayne are foolishly flaunting your relationship with them for the sake of a petty argument on the internet.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #322 on: August 12, 2010, 11:14:00 PM »
"TEP
No doubt I discouraged him from sharing anything with you or Wayne based on my experiences with my Crump essay and the campaign you two went on to discredit before I had even presented it. You two are wound a bit tight."


Tom MacWood;

Uh, no doubt you discourage WHO from sharing anything with me and Wayne? ;)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #323 on: August 12, 2010, 11:16:00 PM »
In fact I was discouraged on several fronts from sharing my essay with Merion.  By the way you guys have acted, that advice was obviously sound.  
« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 11:21:38 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #324 on: August 12, 2010, 11:25:21 PM »
"Do the officials at Merion with whom I communicated know that Wayne forwarded you those emails?   And that now you are planning on distributing them?    I knew you have no class, but I had hoped Merion had more class than that.    Or perhaps they don't know?   Maybe they need to be told how you and Wayne are foolishly flaunting your relationship with them for the sake of a petty argument on the internet."



David Moriarty:

That remark is very funny. Yeah, sure, Merion knows EVERYTHING! The THING you don't understand is Merion and it's entire administration have all been real good friends of mine going back maybe thirty years. It doesn't really have anything to do with Wayne dircectly as I've known them all way longer than I've know him or they've known him. So sure, sometimes the subject of Golfclubatlas and you and MacWood comes up and we discuss it and mostly just laugh. They don't take you and Tom MacWood seriously, David Moriarty, as much as I'm sure you wish they would.

This is just a discussion group on a website and this thread is about Merion historian Desmond Tolhurst and you two ain't doing very good in your campaign against him, that's for sure.

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