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David_Tepper

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Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #100 on: July 24, 2009, 09:35:05 PM »
Melvyn -

1) Please name two or three courses built in GB&I in the last 25 years that you respect and admire.
2) Have you taken the time to look at the youtube.com video regarding the thought and planning behind the design and construction of the bunkers at Castle Stuart? Are you aware of how much time the designers of this course spent studying and researching the history of bunkers in GB&I?

Your comments would be a lot more credible if you could place them in some factual frame of reference, rather than your "feelings."

Grant -

You have nothing to apologize for, especially as you have actually seen the course in person. There is nothing in your 1st post that could possibly be considered offensive by any rational person. 

DT   


DMoriarty

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Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #101 on: July 25, 2009, 12:40:37 AM »
Melvin and Martin,   I think I understand and respect what each of you are saying, but I am not sure I can agree with either of your perspectives.  

First, if there is such a thing as a natural bunker, it exists as a result of erosion, and from the beginning.  It is not as if in the beginning sheep and rabbits and wind and water first created pits with clean edges and linear lines, and then erosion and aging started from there.  Yet most new bunkers built these days look absolutely nothing like natural erosion, maybe over years of neglect they might but not in the beginning.   What is wrong with building bunkers that look like real bunkers that been there and evolved through the seasons?  Any natural bunker you might find necessarily will have.    

Second, I don't know for sure, but think you guys overestimate the cost and inefficiency of creating bunkers that look like this.  I've seen Jim and Gil build bunkers with their chunk method and it is amazingly quick and efficient and produces mature edges from the beginning.  A little more complicated with this course perhaps because they were chunking out of a sod farm instead of the immediately local grass, but nonetheless I don't think it is all that difficult a process.  

Third, almost all great architecture of which I am aware is in some sense a throwback to the ideas of the great early links courses.    I fail to see what is wrong with carrying the emulation to the actual look of the courses in this much earlier era, expecially if it can be done in a cost effective manner.  Why must one either reinvent the wheel or be intentionally stale characterless when creating a new golf course?  

Fourth and perhaps most importantly,  it seems an undercurrent in your posts is that the aesthetic may be masking a lack of underlying quality of the course.   Perhaps the photos highlight the aesthetic too much -- many are focused on small details -- yet I wonder if maybe there is much more there than these aesthetic details.    I cannot say because I have not played it, but I don't think either of you have played it either.    I've a feeling that if Gil and Jim had their way with the contours and hole concepts, it will present a very interesting and enjoyable golfing experience.   I will be very curious to hear your thoughts after you play it.

Fifth, I like the look of the bunkers from this very early era Gil was apparently emulating.  I don't recall many modern designers emulating this very early, pre-1900 era.  It is certainly throwback approach, but at least it is emulating an era that is often overlooked.   Here is a photograph of the Hell bunker from British Golf Links, 1897.  Obviously the walls are not natural, but I like the look of the bunker nonetheless.



DM
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 12:42:38 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Emil Weber

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Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #102 on: July 25, 2009, 01:23:15 AM »
Does anybody still question the GREATNESS of CS' bunkers??? Well if you don't like Castle Stuart's bunkers than you wouldn't have liked THE OLD COURSE's  in the 19th century.

Rob Rigg

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Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #103 on: July 25, 2009, 01:34:28 AM »
Hell Bunker at OM photo

Rob Rigg

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Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #104 on: July 25, 2009, 01:39:21 AM »
Hell Bunker at OM - side view

Rob Rigg

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Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #105 on: July 25, 2009, 01:57:32 AM »
For those who are not stoked on the bunker style implemented at CS - umm - okay.

But what would you rather have?

1960s saucer bunkers?
Shaggy/natural bunkers?
Only riveted?
No sleeper use in bunkers?
What is a modern bunker?
What type of bunkering would be better suited to the land? (Honestly, I am curious)

Clearly, Parsinen and Hanse created this course melding several genres of design from periods in GCA history in an effort to created an immediate modern classic. The team at OM are doing the same thing, sort of, by channeling the spirit of CBM as you can see in the HB photos on the Long hole there.

I think the efforts of these architects should be celebrated. We have lived through years and years of highly paid GCAs mailing in projects based on topo maps with no thought to finishing detail or using the natural landscape.

What the team at CS have done is commit fully to the project and sweat every element of the design. Maybe the sleepered "pop" machine was going a bit too far, and some of their efforts may be a little to deep into the minutiae but based on the photos, videos, etc. of this course, I think it should be toasted as nothing short of fantastic.

I know it is easier for us on this side of the pond to support "modern classics" because we have very few "classic classics", but it is beyond me how passionate fans of GCA would not be as excited about CS as they should be about Old Macdonald - these are not dime a dozen projects, no matter what country you live in.

A great links course is like a wonderful single malt - it gets much better with time - unfortunately creditors are not interested in waiting that long so investors need to speed up the process these days to pay the vig :)

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #106 on: July 25, 2009, 02:29:48 AM »
Does anybody still question the GREATNESS of CS' bunkers??? Well if you don't like Castle Stuart's bunkers than you wouldn't have liked THE OLD COURSE's  in the 19th century.
Emil,

I can't let you get away with that.  That bunker you have chosen is just fine.  It doesn't demonstrate the "faux antiquity" look that some of us are uncomfortable with.  But then I suspect you knew that before you posted it, didn't you?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #107 on: July 25, 2009, 02:34:38 AM »
David,

I hope I have made it clear that I am not commenting on the quality of the course as a golf course.  I have said many times that I expect it is very good indeed.  I'm not sure the pictures I have seen tell me enough about the course to make that judgment.  Anyway, I do find my eye drawn to the detail in them, far more so than on pictures of other new courses.  There have also been a significant number of pictures focussing on the detail, which suggests that those who have played the course also had their attention drawn to the detail.

Grant,

Don't you think the detail matters?  Or could you visit a cathedral and not loo at the gargoyles?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #108 on: July 25, 2009, 02:59:07 AM »
Mark

Of course I think the detail matters. I just feel that some people are getting hung up on what is only a small element of this golf course.

"Create a palpably visual and distinctive personality for the course, through its contours, bunkers, landscape mosaic, and optical compositions."

The above quote is lifted form the course goals page on the Castle Stuart website. I feel that this perfectly describes what they have tried, and in my opinion, achieved with this project. I dont believe that its trying to copy anything else but simply incorporate ideas and features that the designers respect. They have then combined them in a way to produce something that has its own distinct personality.

As for question regarding cathedrals: of course I would look at the gargoyles but I wouldnt pass judgement on the whole building if perhaps they were facing up instead of down.

Grant

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #109 on: July 25, 2009, 05:39:37 AM »

Of course, many will not agree or perhaps understand other individuals view points or opinions for the simple reason based upon our inherent human make-up.

Many, I am certain remember my likes and dislikes, my concerns for the  site being fit for purpose, co-operating with Nature and being as natural as common sense allows. I have only seen the photos of CS, but my first impressions as I have said leaves a little bit to be desired. I also do not have a problem with sod or riveted bunkers or the use of sleepers, however, I am not impressed by the format of the sleepers in photo 2009-43, 2009-50 & 209-51. They have been added to I presume sow maturity and age to the course. This I consider is very poor and certainly not to my liking. The continued use of old sleepers on the drive, walkways and steps (2009-121) is also not helpful. I feel there appears to have been a rush to age the course to perhaps because of the concerns many had with the Castle Course and its incomplete appearance when it opened.

Also, add to the equation that I am a Links man with knowledge of many of the older courses. I am not keen on the Chocolate Box image golf course that many seem to favour, perhaps more out of necessity that desire. Nor do I like the idea of presenting something new but dressed to fool in the hope of creating maturity.

I have been extremely fortunate that over the many years I have ready access to many of our links course. That is not to say that I do not also play on parkland courses, I certainly do or did. Nevertheless as per my first comment after seeing the photos, I still feel something is missing at the CS course. In addition the amount of sleepers and the format that they were used on the course in some of bunkers is not to my liking.

I think someone mentioned Americanised in describing the course. Not knowing the American courses with the exception of what I have gleamed from a few dozen photos, I feel that The Castle Stuart course has a leaning to that description. As David stated the proof of the pudding is actually playing the course, but I still for the time being hold to my first impressions.

The freedom to play golf allows us the right to make our own minds up about various things, including new courses.

Melvyn

PS David T.  There are a few modern courses that seem fair, but for the most part when I play, I use the established old courses. As for the list you seek, no I don’t tend to do that. I was going to pass on making comment but something in the photos did not appear right or was missing.


Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #110 on: July 25, 2009, 06:29:32 AM »
Melvyn,

Can you please answer the question that has been asked so that we could get an idea of what courses meet your approval that are not 100 years old:

Please name two or three courses built in GB&I in the last 25 years that you respect and admire.

Thank you.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #111 on: July 25, 2009, 06:45:28 AM »

Brian

I see no need to name any other course. We are debating our thoughts & opinions on CS.

Melvyn

Niall C

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Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #112 on: July 25, 2009, 09:53:56 AM »
Mark,

I have not yet played Castle Stuart, but in my former role as a magazine editor I was fortunate to hear a good deal about the development of the course from some of the individuals involved. I appreciate courses that are both good golf experiences and add to the conversation of what architecture can be--I admit I am only speculating at the moment that CS provides the former, but it seems to me that it has already and will continue to advance the latter. Your Scottish club does this as well, and I am glad to have had the chance to play there.

"Why can't it look like a modern great golfing experience rather than needing some cosmetic patina of age and decay?" Well, I suppose they could have gone down that path. On the other hand, Kingsbarns has been criticized at times for looking too modern. It's a choice made by the architects to create interest and enjoyment for the golfer. Part of that is aesthetic, and part of it, I'm sure, represents conscious decision-making on how these hazards will actually play. I don't see it as window-dressing.

It's entirely possible that I am being unfair again in extending the logic, but it's worth pointing out that golf architecture routinely mines its past and puts its own spin on things to create something new and different. Should the Redan concept have ended at North Berwick--are all of the American versions of this golf hole simply "pretending to be something they're not"? Why should a "look" be any different, and why should your expectation of how a course should look be dependent on the green fee? It's one thing to be critical of how something is executed, but it's another to suggest that certain elements of style should be sealed in amber and reserved for places like Porthmadog.

Lest I be tarred as a Yankee philistine bunker fetishist, for the past several years I have carried as my signature on this site the motto of a UK club I particularly admire. My thoughts about the place can be found in the Visitor Information section of their website. It is in some ways the polar opposite of Castle Stuart, but in its unconventional way it too advances the conversation of what great architecture can be.


Tom

Is Castle Stuart great golf or great aesthetics ? It seems to me that what is being discussed here is the look of the course rather than how it plays. This whole conversation seemed to stem from comments from a number of us, including Mark Marty and myself, that the bunkering in particular just jarred in its obvious (to those brought up in UK golfing culture at any rate) contrived appearance. And Brian I take your point that once you put any bunker in the ground you are faking it, however its not the actual fakeness of bunkering but rather the fake style that is under discussion.

Niall



David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #113 on: July 25, 2009, 12:41:09 PM »
Niall -

I think Castle Stuart will prove to be a wonderful combination of great golf AND great aesthetics. The only way you will know for sure is to play it some time.

DT

DMoriarty

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Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #114 on: July 25, 2009, 01:10:44 PM »
Niall,

What is a "fake style" of bunkers?  Could you provide us with examples of what a "non-fake style" of bunkers would look like.   

It sounds a bit like you are not familiar with this style, and it makes you uncomfortable, so you call it "fake style."   Was it "fake style" in 1897?   Or is the problem that these bunkers are in the style of those in 1897?   Would it be real style if they were in the style of 1997?   1987?  2007? What is real about those styles?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #115 on: July 25, 2009, 01:46:29 PM »
David

Not speaking for Niall, he can fight his own corners without my aid, but I would comment
Re the fake style bunkers. As David T suggested you see the Youtube link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck8q8MsF1e8  and Gil explanation you will see that he has produced a totally fake bunker arrangement for the course. As he said, I believe unique to CS. In addition, the sod riveted bunker is certainly not new and has been a Fife feature for many generations. As proved by the Hell Bunker reinforcement picture from the mid 1890’s.

However, this is total made to measure for the CS course. As for how the course plays, we have to play it to comment. Nevertheless, the fake riveted bunkers and that appalling mix and match of parts of sleepers with gaps is just IMHO poor and has spoilt the course for me – its trying to be something it is not - old and established. Therefore, we have sleepers, not laid out in a uniformed way as Westward Ho, but with parts missing and – well it just looks a mess. Add that to Gil’s fake riveted bunkers is not a great start for a new course. Look guys I built a course and trying to fake the age

Is it a Scottish thing, I don’t know about you but I’m not keen nor like the idea of the wool being pulled over my eyes. You guys may have to accept it in the States but its piss poor show to do it in Scotland. Its fake, counterfeit, I feel a party to a sting, it just does not seem right, however the course may well be most enjoyable, but that does not stop it being wrong. That’s my opinion, not Niall or Mark or Marty. 

Melvyn

Kenny Baer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #116 on: July 25, 2009, 01:59:30 PM »

Brian

I see no need to name any other course. We are debating our thoughts & opinions on CS.

Melvyn

I would just be interested for the sake of knowing what sort of modern golf courses you enjoy.

This is my Pop Psychology.....I think for someone who has grown up their whole life playing authentic links golf courses; the ones where this very game began, could look at CS and find flaws.  You have a deep understanding of that kind of golf; even the slightest hint at phoniness can put you off.

As an American who grew up on parkland golf but loves firm and fast; many options off the tee, etc....I can't imagine anyone looking at those pictures and not thinking WOW, it looks AWESOME, but then again my understanding of Links golf is not anywhere near your league; I feel that as an American....or at least someone used to parkland golf, things like "Sleepers" or the other faux details that attempt to make the course worn don't bother me in any-way.  

Don't even know if this makes sense but oh well.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 02:03:24 PM by Kenny Baer »

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #117 on: July 25, 2009, 02:01:43 PM »
By the same token any NEW golf course could be determined artifical or fake. Melvyn your argument therefore would seem to be against any new golf course. As a golf course architect we basically try our best to fit a golf scenery into a landscape, it is fake ofcourse because it is newly formed unless you find a perfect parcel of land where nothing needs to be disturbed which in reality is impossible.

Golf courses change over time, landscapes change the aim surely of the golf course architect is to produce a golf course that people want to play and enjoy, if people play it and enjoy it and it forms part of a golfing calender for county events or better it must be determined good. In that respect I think Mr Hanse has produced a spectacular golf course using the background of things outside of his golf course land and has transformed a not so great piece of land (see google earth before shots) to what it is now which in my opinion is pretty damm good. Time will tell but I have a feeling over the next few years that Castle Stuart will be the highest rated new course in the GB & I top 100, that may or may not be a definitive measure in many eyes and probably not yours. Melvyn what course do you like of the modern courses (last 50 years)? further, what do you think of St Andrews 5th and 6th course, The Balgove & The Strathymn ?
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #118 on: July 25, 2009, 02:07:47 PM »

Kenny
There is a simple reason I do not mention any other course – it’s because it can be used and generally is to wander away from the topic.

Now what time do you want that alarm call in the morning, sir? See you don't know what I'm talking about  - but then whats new, I sometime just about understand what I am not talking about and boy that can be confusing.  ???
But at least I'm not Anthony Gray, - I think.

Sorry kenny what were you saying?  ;)

Melvyn


Ross Tuddenham

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Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #119 on: July 25, 2009, 02:43:03 PM »
They way I look at it if you have had to make it from scratch then you are deciding how it is going to look and therefore on the aesthetic characteristics.  Secondly you have to ask why the bunkers of the early courses looked the way they did.  Was it because of the construction technology available or did they decide that is what looked good?

Were the bunkers created form scratch?

If 100 years ago they did it for aesthetics then it is a fair enough decision to make in this day and therefore we should not describe them as fake.  But if modern equipment has been used to create an older look then it is a fake look.

If they were created with antique technology then that might negate the fake tag is it would be an interesting experiment to try and create bunkers without modern construction tools.  You cant complain if that is all that is possible with the technology.

Are there any before pictures of the sites where the bunkers are so we can see if they have indeed been constructed like a bunker 100 years ago or made to like they have been.  If they have just been made from scratch then how can they be described as anything other than “faux antique”?

What also contributes to the fake look is the likes of the clock and cart paths that seem to have been created by dynamiting the dunes.  Is this falsifying the routing compared to a course that would have been constructed 100 years ago?   

Would it not have been more likely that the next tee would have been perched on the elevated dune and rather then walking up and over then down the dune. At CS they have just gone straight through it.

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #120 on: July 25, 2009, 04:41:54 PM »

What also contributes to the fake look is the likes of the clock and cart paths that seem to have been created by dynamiting the dunes.  Is this falsifying the routing compared to a course that would have been constructed 100 years ago?   

Would it not have been more likely that the next tee would have been perched on the elevated dune and rather then walking up and over then down the dune. At CS they have just gone straight through it.

Ross

Could you please identify the photos in which you are basing this statement on


 however its not the actual fakeness of bunkering but rather the fake style that is under discussion.



Niall

Why must a style that is different from the status quo be termed fake? Arent the developers entitled to employ a style that appeals to them and suits their requirements?




Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #121 on: July 25, 2009, 05:10:16 PM »
Who cares...the golf course looks great....it sits well and even though I have not seen it yet...I can smell it....
you guys like fake boobs???  probably not..... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #122 on: July 25, 2009, 06:23:02 PM »
Mike

The Devil is in the detail or you are selling a fake masterpiece, no matter how good its still a fake.

Whilst perhaps not that important to a round, its still there in the back of ones mind or should I say in your face every time you see a riveted bunker and that daft effort of old or rotten sleepers.

Mike some care, that's the whole point, while some continue to care there is hope, but if you care then the Devil is in the Detail.

Melvyn

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #123 on: July 25, 2009, 06:47:00 PM »
Melvyn,
That's the good thing about different designs....to each his own....I just want to play the course.....but when you have time...explain" fake masterpieces" to me....i understand counterfeit masterpieces but  an original golf course is not a fake....it is Castle Stuart....I try to accept for what it for what it is....
Take care....
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #124 on: July 25, 2009, 09:24:09 PM »
Melvyn,   

I have watched the video, a few times.   Is it possible that you are misunderstanding Gil's intention?   He did say that he felt the bunkers were unlike any other in the world, but he also said that the bunkers were modeled after photos of bunkers from Hutchinson's 1897 book.  I am not sure how you go from this to "he has produced a totally fake bunker arrangement for the course."   

I must be misunderstanding.  How does modeling bunkers after those from pre-1900 links courses make them fake?     

As for the riveting, could you explain what makes it "fake riveting?"  I don't think it is a facade-- now that would be fake.  I think it is real riveting, and as I understand it they used it for stylistic reasons but also in places where they foresaw cave-ins and erosion.  In your mind should they have waited until the bunkers collapsed to include it in the design?   (My understanding is that Gil Hanse and Jim Wagner often stack sod on the upper portions of their steep bunkers to help with future potential erosion problems.)

As for the RR ties, have you ever worked with them?  They are generally purchased used, from torn up old track, and are pretty rustic.  Maybe they once were, but after decades in the conditions they are by no means uniform.  People that use them had better be comfortable with a rough, old look because the that is how the RR ties are.    So I find it a bit odd that you would require anyone to stack them exactly and evenly. 

That being said, I think that perhaps two of the photos showing the same bunker best represent what you are saying:   





I really don't mind the look of the RR ties on the right.  They seem to be serving a purpose.     I am not so sure about the ties on the left, as they just sort of seem to be sitting there.  Do they serve a purpose other than aesthetic?   I don't know.

As for these next two photos, I have no problem with how the ties are used in either.   They certainly serve a purpose-- supporting the embankment in the first and keeping carts on the paths and out of the native.   (We might agree that a better solution would be to keep the carts off the course all together.)  And having worked a bit with RR ties, I think it would have been a mistake to try and square the RR ties.  As I said, they don't match well anyway and forcing formality where it doesn't flow naturally from the conditions is not my idea of good design. 





Is it a Scottish thing, I don’t know about you but I’m not keen nor like the idea of the wool being pulled over my eyes. You guys may have to accept it in the States but its piss poor show to do it in Scotland. Its fake, counterfeit, I feel a party to a sting, it just does not seem right, however the course may well be most enjoyable, but that does not stop it being wrong. That’s my opinion, not Niall or Mark or Marty. 

Melvyn

Please don't take this the wrong way, but is it possible that you are maybe taking this a bit far?  I agree with your general sentiment, but not sure the photographic evidence justifies the position in this case. 

Maybe it is just that I am willing to give these particular designers (at least one half of the team) the benefit of the doubt, at least until I see the course.  Hanse and Wagner (and Shackelford) designed and built my home course.  I've been told they moved less than 17,000 cubic yards of dirt in building it.  In other words, they essentially took what the land gave them and there is very little that is artificial or forced.   So maybe I am biased going into looking at these photos, and more likely to try and understand what they are trying to do.

But isn't it possible that you to are coming at this with a certain point of view that might negatively influence your view of designs that come to close to emulating the old courses you so love?

I guess this is my bottom line question for me.   If the pre-1900 links courses were so great, then what is wrong with trying to emulate them, right down to the look of the bunkers?   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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