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Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2009, 03:02:58 PM »

Old Macdonald

I haven't been, please someone post a better picture, but the sleepers have not looked uniform to me in the pics I've seen thus far.


Those sleepers look like they have a purpose (even if they don't they are fake as well) of holding up the material behind them.  The sleepers at Castle Stuart are there to be aesthetic and do not hide that fact.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2009, 03:04:18 PM »

Old Macdonald
. . .

I am very disappointed in Tom Doak, Jim Urbina, and the entire crew. 

That snow fence in front of the bunker has obviously been altered to make it look like an old, vintage red slat snow fence.  Snow fences like that have not been seen at the nation's top ski resorts for decades.   It is fake and ruins the look of the entire course to me.   Even though I haven't seen it.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #77 on: July 24, 2009, 03:05:46 PM »
Mark,

I have not yet played Castle Stuart, but in my former role as a magazine editor I was fortunate to hear a good deal about the development of the course from some of the individuals involved. I appreciate courses that are both good golf experiences and add to the conversation of what architecture can be--I admit I am only speculating at the moment that CS provides the former, but it seems to me that it has already and will continue to advance the latter. Your Scottish club does this as well, and I am glad to have had the chance to play there.

"Why can't it look like a modern great golfing experience rather than needing some cosmetic patina of age and decay?" Well, I suppose they could have gone down that path. On the other hand, Kingsbarns has been criticized at times for looking too modern. It's a choice made by the architects to create interest and enjoyment for the golfer. Part of that is aesthetic, and part of it, I'm sure, represents conscious decision-making on how these hazards will actually play. I don't see it as window-dressing.

It's entirely possible that I am being unfair again in extending the logic, but it's worth pointing out that golf architecture routinely mines its past and puts its own spin on things to create something new and different. Should the Redan concept have ended at North Berwick--are all of the American versions of this golf hole simply "pretending to be something they're not"? Why should a "look" be any different, and why should your expectation of how a course should look be dependent on the green fee? It's one thing to be critical of how something is executed, but it's another to suggest that certain elements of style should be sealed in amber and reserved for places like Porthmadog.

Lest I be tarred as a Yankee philistine bunker fetishist, for the past several years I have carried as my signature on this site the motto of a UK club I particularly admire. My thoughts about the place can be found in the Visitor Information section of their website. It is in some ways the polar opposite of Castle Stuart, but in its unconventional way it too advances the conversation of what great architecture can be.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 03:08:07 PM by Tom Dunne »

Anthony Gray

Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #78 on: July 24, 2009, 03:15:42 PM »

Old Macdonald

I haven't been, please someone post a better picture, but the sleepers have not looked uniform to me in the pics I've seen thus far.


Those sleepers look like they have a purpose (even if they don't they are fake as well) of holding up the material behind them.  The sleepers at Castle Stuart are there to be aesthetic and do not hide that fact.

  At what point has golf stopped being aesthetic? Has any one ever noticed the water at Pebble Beach?

  Anthony


Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #79 on: July 24, 2009, 03:35:13 PM »

  At what point has golf stopped being aesthetic? Has any one ever noticed the water at Pebble Beach?

  Anthony



That would be the Pacific Ocean? No problems there! Although that godawful concrete retaining wall by 18 is gross.

While we're at it, contributors on this website routinely mock and scoff at the fakery of the likes of artificial waterfalls and the like. Yet it would appear that a half-timbered coke machine is getting a free pass? That confuses me.

BTW, can I say that I am utterly delighted that we're actually discussing golf course architecture around here for once. Lately that has been sadly lacking here.

cheers,
FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #80 on: July 24, 2009, 03:45:53 PM »
Marty, I don't know what the issue is. That Coke machine looks like it's been there forever.  ;)  I'm sure it might even fool some especially dumb Yanks at the tail end of a links fortnight into confusing it for a Portrush storm shelter.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #81 on: July 24, 2009, 03:45:54 PM »

  At what point has golf stopped being aesthetic? Has any one ever noticed the water at Pebble Beach?

  Anthony



That would be the Pacific Ocean? No problems there! Although that godawful concrete retaining wall by 18 is gross.

While we're at it, contributors on this website routinely mock and scoff at the fakery of the likes of artificial waterfalls and the like. Yet it would appear that a half-timbered coke machine is getting a free pass? That confuses me.

BTW, can I say that I am utterly delighted that we're actually discussing golf course architecture around here for once. Lately that has been sadly lacking here.

cheers,
FBD.

Marty,

You are clearly mistaken.

Anthony never discusses golf course architecture.

Adam Clayman
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #82 on: July 24, 2009, 03:47:08 PM »

I agree with Marty, in that I was not impressed with the old sleepers or the way of trying to age the course. My initial opinion was that something was missing and perhaps it is the idea of faking age instead of showing the quality of the design using the land.

I certainly do not like fake – to make something appear that which is not may hide more sinister items, which yet may still surface.

Why do we not just accept that natural and contoured nature of the site, why try to age it and make it appear as a suspect copy of a great masterpiece.

A smack of The Castle Course, perhaps but at least it seems more at home with its surroundings than that course.

Faking age is not the way I want to see golf course architecture going, as I mentioned above what else is still there to discover.

I do not expect a new golf course to look old, but the designer can reflect natural age within his design without surely going to these tacky methods.

Melvyn   


I agree there should not be fakery, but sleepers supporting bunker walls is a time honored technique for bunkers in highly windy areas.

Here's a good example of a modern use of this ancient technique - Forrest Richardson's 4th hole at the Links at Las Palomas in Mexico.  There was nothing else at that course like the sleepers, but they work.  Without those sleepers, I doubt that green could survive.



So do the sleepers at Castle Stuart bother me?  Not a bit.  I'm not crazy about the stacked sod fairway cuts though...........

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #83 on: July 24, 2009, 04:19:01 PM »
Eric and Anthony,

It's not the sleepers per se I object to.  It's the way there are obviously deliberate gaps between them and that they are arranged unevenly, to suggest that they were once, in history, uniform and neat but that time has worn them.  That's a lie.  By all means have sleepers but arrange them neatly, as the designers and builders of Prestwick, Royal North Devon and even Crail Balcomie did.  It's the pretence, not the sleepers that I don't get and don't like.

Mark


  Mark,

  I do not dispute your opinion...I just want to know more. Eric and I live in a a country that has Disneyworld and cosmetic surgery so fake is embraced. The recent movement in architecture is for the raw, less manicured look. Castle Stuart has all that. It seems to be the course that we are crying out for. If you were 100 more feet more above the water it would be Bandon. I can see it now Castle Keiser. How do you like Kingsbarns? Is Kingsbarns scotish? I am pulled to the golf culture in scotland and find it more to my liking that the golf culture in the states so it is great to hear you opinions.

  Anthony



Anthony,

I guess my problem is that Castle Stuart appears to be anti-manicured.  The very same level of care and attention that goes into making a Trump course look so tidy has been invested in making CS look, well, older than it is.  I didn't want to use the world Disney but the pictures did make me think of CS as Scottish Golf by Walt.

Mark
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #84 on: July 24, 2009, 04:24:00 PM »
Mark,

I have not yet played Castle Stuart, but in my former role as a magazine editor I was fortunate to hear a good deal about the development of the course from some of the individuals involved. I appreciate courses that are both good golf experiences and add to the conversation of what architecture can be--I admit I am only speculating at the moment that CS provides the former, but it seems to me that it has already and will continue to advance the latter. Your Scottish club does this as well, and I am glad to have had the chance to play there.

"Why can't it look like a modern great golfing experience rather than needing some cosmetic patina of age and decay?" Well, I suppose they could have gone down that path. On the other hand, Kingsbarns has been criticized at times for looking too modern. It's a choice made by the architects to create interest and enjoyment for the golfer. Part of that is aesthetic, and part of it, I'm sure, represents conscious decision-making on how these hazards will actually play. I don't see it as window-dressing.
Some of it is in play (the bunkers, mostly) though whether it will really affect how the course plays I can't tell without playing, though I have my doubts.  Elements such as the tee surrounds and the Coke machine, though, are pure cosmetics.
Quote

It's entirely possible that I am being unfair again in extending the logic, but it's worth pointing out that golf architecture routinely mines its past and puts its own spin on things to create something new and different. Should the Redan concept have ended at North Berwick--are all of the American versions of this golf hole simply "pretending to be something they're not"? Why should a "look" be any different, and why should your expectation of how a course should look be dependent on the green fee? It's one thing to be critical of how something is executed, but it's another to suggest that certain elements of style should be sealed in amber and reserved for places like Porthmadog.
  Not at all.  I have no problem with taking elements of design and copying, adapting or adopting them.  It's the cosmetic dishonesty that I don't like.
Quote

Lest I be tarred as a Yankee philistine bunker fetishist, for the past several years I have carried as my signature on this site the motto of a UK club I particularly admire. My thoughts about the place can be found in the Visitor Information section of their website. It is in some ways the polar opposite of Castle Stuart, but in its unconventional way it too advances the conversation of what great architecture can be.


Just so I can be completely clear, BTW.  I have no objection whatsoever to the use of sleepers.  I like that.  I love the 14th at the Balcomie (which my son thinks is the coolest hole in the world).
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Will Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #85 on: July 24, 2009, 04:26:30 PM »
http://punchbowlgolf.com/2009/04/kyle-franz/

See video about how and why we used sleepers/fence posts at the Lehman course at the Prairie Club.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #86 on: July 24, 2009, 04:32:14 PM »
Mark,   Interesting that the first two on your list of courses that pass your test were created (in part at least) by those that brought us Castle Stuart.   Is it possible that they lost their bearings so quickly, or do you think that perhaps you might misunderstand their intent?
David,

Quite deliberate.  If they could manage these (very different) courses in Scotland, why the need for the cosmetic fakery of CS?  I like Craighead more than the vast majority but nothing there pretends to be anything it isn't.  There's some quirk (an old stone wall is a repeated feature) but that's because it was there in the land.  I wonder if it can be likened to musicians (I have in mind the progressive rock bands of the early 70s) who start off by bringing a level of intelligence and creativity to an art that hasn't been seen for a while but who, in the end, in a bid to continually been seen to be breaking new ground, concentrate more on what might be seen as clever than on their real art.  

I don't know if CS is Close to the Edge (a (fairly pretentious) masterpiece, IMHO, but a masterpiece nonetheless) or Tales from Topographic Oceans ( a morass of wallowing crap). Only playing it will tell.  I do worry about where the art is going, though, when GCAs are spending so much time and effort to make a tee box look like it is old and decaying.

Mark
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 05:21:46 PM by Mark Pearce »
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #87 on: July 24, 2009, 05:17:34 PM »
Mark,

I enjoyed reading all of that and much of it makes sense in relation to what you were saying before.

Cheers.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #88 on: July 24, 2009, 06:18:38 PM »

Bill

I have no problems with the use of sleeper, but the way they have been used at CS. They looks crap and unfinished, I suppose to give credibility or the discarded aged look to mature the course. Something is missing. Its interesting that some of us have a similar feeling towards the course, yet approaching it from what looks like different directions.

No the sleepers are not the problem, nor what they have done with them but the way they did it,  its looks fake. I suppose I feel as if someone is trying to fool me and I don’t like the idea, even though I know it’s a new course. 

Weird feeling, leaves me with many questions. Would I drive past it for Tain, Dornoch and all course North, I think I might.

Melvyn 


Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #89 on: July 24, 2009, 06:34:41 PM »
Brian,
thanks for the great pix. What strikes me - ONCE AGAIN! - about a newly constructed golf course in Scotland is how much attention has been lavished upon what I like to describe as 'faux-antiquity'.

It strikes me that lots of time and attention gets spent in the creation of details which are meant to look, ehm, well, 'old'. Almost as if the designers NEED to seek our approval in their use of historic adornment. In true Architectural terms (with the Capital 'A') it's fake, it's forced and it's wrong. Revetted faces between grass surface levels? Eh? No thank you.

What would be wrong with today's designers spending some time and energy establishing and developing a NEW vocabulary of design details INSTEAD OF regurgitating the 'best' bits of History? I am tired of reverentialism which is either advertised as minimalism or feted as 'golden age' hat-doffing. We'll get nowhere fast if we keep going round in circles.

I'm sure it's a decent 'golf' experience, but as a piece of landscape design, I'll take Desmond Muirhead any day.

cheers,
FBD.

  Marty,

  If this course was in Vegas then I might agreee with you, but this is SCOTLAND for God's sake.....You expect the courses to look old. That is why The Castle is not well recieved...Castle Stuart looks like it has been there forever.......Americans are not going to travel there to play a modern looking course....These pictures make my mouth water....Just plain eye candy...I am going in September and just can't wait.

             AND.......It is just up the road from Cruden Bay.....Just wait and see how popular this area becomes with Dornach, Cruden Bay, Castle Stuart and the new Trump course.....It will be a must destination.


          Anthony




Cruden Ba and Dornoch... Isn't that a 3 hours' drive??

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #90 on: July 24, 2009, 06:43:08 PM »
Melvyn -

It is interesting that those of you who "have a similar feeling" have not seen the course in person.

Those who have seen it in person also have a similar, but very different feeling.

Can you mention 2 or 3 courses built in GB&I over the last 25 years that you do admire?

DT   

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #91 on: July 24, 2009, 06:50:14 PM »
David,

Instead of repeating that question of Melvyn, which I suspect we both know isn't likely to elicit a response, and rather than suggesting that those of us who have an issue with these pictures are missing something because we haven't been there (I'm sure we are, BTW, I've said it's almost certainly a very good course, but the photos can't lie about the cosmetic detailing I don't like), would you like to respond to what I said in response to your question?

Mark
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #92 on: July 24, 2009, 07:07:23 PM »
Mark -

I appreciate your response to my question. Regrettably, I have not played or seen in person any of the courses you named (Kingsbarns, Crail Craighead, Loch Lomond & the Carrick). That makes it hard to place your perception of Castle Stuart in a context with those courses.

I do find it interesting that the people very much involved with 2 of the courses on your list are intimately involved with Castle Stuart, yet you find their work (or should I say "overwork") is lacking there. But then again, not everyone likes all of Woody Allen's movies! ;)

Having toured the course in person 3 times over the past 3 years, I have described it to people as a 21st century combination of Dornoch & Cruden Bay. I will stand by that description. Clearly there are some posters on this board who prefer to live in the past. ;)

DT

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #93 on: July 24, 2009, 07:13:53 PM »

David

It is not a question of living in the past, but appreciating quality that some of us do not feel is being reproduced today.

Melvyn

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #94 on: July 24, 2009, 07:42:57 PM »
I have looked forward to this course being discussed on here as I am familiar with it. I have not had the pleasure of seeing the large number of great courses that dominate this website so it is nice to actually know first hand about one that is worthy of discussion.

It surprises me that much of this discussion has been devoted to something as trivial as the way in which they chose to utilise the sleepers throughout the property.
This is a course that embraces all the things that people on this site preach as being the hallmark of a great course. It has width, it plays firm and fast on fescues, it supports the ground game, the green complexes are interesting and varied, it sits well in its environment, the holes offer multiple strategies and options, it is playable for all levels yet challenging to the good player etc... These things are discernible from the photos, but Brian has perhaps disproportionately focused on the details instead of the overall look/feel of the place. As he himself has pointed out, the photos do not do the place justice.

As for the sleepers themselves, I think they work very well within the context of the site. The rugged/rustic look that has been aimed for would possibly have been compromised had they been placed geometrically and great care taken that they were all even and measured.

It would be nice if the discussion could maybe turn towards discussing the course and how it relates to the game of golf as opposed to nitpicking about minor aesthetics and forming negative views of the overall project based on such a small component.

I would love to hear from Brian and others that have played/visited the course about which holes in particular either stand or are just simply their favourites.

I would like to put forth that for me personally, the 3rd hole is possibly one of if not the best short par 4 that I have myself seen. I think it is a real "wolf in sheeps clothing" as it appears relatively innocuous from the tee yet it is no pushover. There are a multitude of ways to play the hole but they all carry a certain risk. I love the use of subtle angles on this hole and the offering of so much width off the tee. Missing the green left certainly appears to be no easy up and down.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 07:58:52 PM by Grant Saunders »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #95 on: July 24, 2009, 07:49:58 PM »
Grant -

Excellent and spot on post. Some people would rather focus on trees rather than the forest, although in this case, it is more like the toothpicks rather than the forest.

Melvyn -

Did you take the time to see the youtube.com video clip where Gin Hanse discusses the thoughts behind the bunkering at Castle Stuart? If anything, they have gone out of their way to create at Castle Stuart an homage to what you hold so dear. You are being offered a gift and you don't even realize or appreciate it. That is a shame.

DT


Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #96 on: July 24, 2009, 08:03:40 PM »
Good posts Grant and David... Another question: How much credit goes to Gil Hanse? Somehow everybody is only talking about Mark Parsinen... I always thought it's a Gil Hanse project.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #97 on: July 24, 2009, 08:22:35 PM »
Mark,   Interesting that the first two on your list of courses that pass your test were created (in part at least) by those that brought us Castle Stuart.   Is it possible that they lost their bearings so quickly, or do you think that perhaps you might misunderstand their intent?
David,

Quite deliberate.  If they could manage these (very different) courses in Scotland, why the need for the cosmetic fakery of CS?  I like Craighead more than the vast majority but nothing there pretends to be anything it isn't.  There's some quirk (an old stone wall is a repeated feature) but that's because it was there in the land.  I wonder if it can be likened to musicians (I have in mind the progressive rock bands of the early 70s) who start off by bringing a level of intelligence and creativity to an art that hasn't been seen for a while but who, in the end, in a bid to continually been seen to be breaking new ground, concentrate more on what might be seen as clever than on their real art.  

I don't know if CS is Close to the Edge (a (fairly pretentious) masterpiece, IMHO, but a masterpiece nonetheless) or Tales from Topographic Oceans ( a morass of wallowing crap). Only playing it will tell.  I do worry about where the art is going, though, when GCAs are spending so much time and effort to make a tee box look like it is old and decaying.

Mark

Mark,   I understand generally your concern with where architecture is going, but make a bit of a distinction.   My concern is that sometimes a certain look or aesthetic styling often substitutes for quality architecture.  In other words, I worry that some architects just add frilly edged bunkers or fescue to their same old tired designs and call them quality minimalist or naturalist architecture.    It is difficult to tell from the photos, but it doesn't sound like that is what is going on here.  

Also, you'd think that if you have great affection for Gil's other Scotland work as well as Kingsbarn's I'd think it might make sense to at least suspend judgment until you have actually seen and played the course.   I may be wrong, but have a suspicion that once you play it you may find that it is not nearly as contrived as you think.    

Is it possible that you are focusing on the little touches here and there and not really looking at the course?   Because I don't see much that is all that contrived when I look at the course.   Old stylings, yes, and old methods and materials, but I am not sure I see much on the course that doesn't serve a golfing purpose.   Maybe you can be a bit more specific?
 
You mention making the tees look old and eroded?   Can you show me what you mean?   I saw a couple of photos of tees with RR ties but they don't look too different than RR tie retaining walls I used to help build in high school and early college, and we were just trying to build something easy, effective, inexpensive, and structurally sound.

___________________________

FBD,

This has got to be the first thread where a soda machine cover has considered part of the golf course.  

Did you consider Rustic canyon to be overdone and fake?   Because while this is obviously on a different level of detail, in the pictures at least I see many of the same general types of features, and the use of natural contours seems to be very Hanse&Wagnerian, which to me means that pretty much took as as they found it.    I could be wrong, because I haven't seen it, but then you haven't either, have you?  

Perhaps it would be worth a look before either one of us comes to too many conclusions?  

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #98 on: July 24, 2009, 08:52:41 PM »
Grant, David

Beauty is in the eye of the …… as the saying goes. We each look at a course with our own perspective. As you expect us to acknowledge your rights, your opinions and views, could you not have shown the same consideration in return?

With my first view this morning I felt something was at odds or missing, when the later photos appeared I thought the quality of the bunkering poor and what in my opinion it was made to look cheap and fake. As I said that raised concerns.

Sleepers are fine, but to be honest my first initial impressions is a course not for the locals but for the overseas visitors that enjoy Brora, Dornoch etc. I would also say that from the photos what appeared to be the faking to generate age is an insult to our overseas visitors. The cosmetic finished course, yet not apparently to that great a standard.

Grant, the blend of the bunkers is as much part of the course in my eyes as to how each hole plays, it’s the overall experience and as I said this was my initial comment based upon the photos, but just as valid a comment as yours. Although I accept, it is of very little interest to you. Yet added to all the other comments you may that it gives a more representative picture of the course. Nitpicking is if you do not mind me saying a rather arrogant not to mention condescending attitude to take over other peoples first opinions. Nevertheless, we need to wait to see the opinions of others.

Melvyn


Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart Photos
« Reply #99 on: July 24, 2009, 09:18:12 PM »
Melvyn

It is in no way my intention to offend anyone and im sorry if I offended you. I respect that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and that everyone sees things in a different light. I was simply offering my own thoughts on the subject.

I was just hoping that maybe people could start with the big picture first then possibly thrash out the small details down the track. I too appreciate how the bunker style for example fits into the overall of the course but it might be nice if we begin by looking at the course as an interactive object on which we play the game. I think people on board here can often be found guilty of analysing courses as a static image more akin to a piece of art and sometimes forget that they are to be played on.

I appreciate that pictures are often the beginning of forming ideas about a course someone has not experienced but they are not always infallible at conveying an accurate representation. This is why I was hoping that the people who have physically visited the course may offer some further insight.

As a couple of others have mentioned, when you see the course first hand, the scale of how it all fits together becomes more apparent and also how well it works.


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