[Niall C]

   Mark and Marty,

  I am curious about this "False" issue. Is it that is looks false or that you know it is false? To me it looks natural but I know it is not.

 How hard is it for a "new" course to break in in Scotland? In recent years is Kingsbarns the only one that has been accepted by the locals? Or is it not accepted?

  Everyone who plays Whistling Straits knows it is false. but it is stil very well accepted. 100 years from now will Castle Stuart be embraced more by the euros?

  Was Castle Stuart built for americans mainly?

   Anthony

  

  

Anthony

I think Mark stated it well when he compared the bunkering to some of those mock Georgian mansions that you get over here. Yes you can see the influences or basic intent of the design but somehow it doesn't look "authentic". The dilapidated look of the sleepers, sod wall etc, shape of some of the bunkers, the use of the sod wall between different levels of grass, all that I haven't seen anywhere else in Scotland. Neither have I seen fairways shaped like that on a links course (with the possible exception of Kingsbarns), hence my earlier comments that it looks more American than Scottish.

Also in comparison to existing links the planting looks fairly new as there's no blending in. All of that doesn't make it a bad course, by Brians account it is well worth playing, I'm just wondering how much of the plaudits is due to the aesthetics and how much from it being a great layout. Either way I would be keen to play it but not at 150 quid a round.

As I understand it, CS is a pay and play. At those kind of prices it has to be aimed at visitors, the majority of which will be American. Presumably the locals will get a cheaper rate.

Niall

[David_Tepper]

Niall -

If you check at www.castlestuartgolf.com, you will see the reduced green fee rates for locals and SGU members.

Mark -

Castle Stuart was conceived and developed as an up-market business enterprise. There is no doubt about that. Assuming the global economy recovers, there will be a boutique hotel, a spa and fractional-ownership lodges built on the property over the next 3-5 years. There are also plans for a 2nd course. I don't want to put words or intentions in anyone's mouth, but it would not be a stretch to think that Castle Stuart aims to be a 21st century Gleneagles or Turnberry, albeit on a smaller scale.

A Swatch and a Rolex both tell the time in just about the same way. No doubt there is a market for both.

DT 

[Mark Pearce]

Niall -

If you check at www.castlestuartgolf.com, you will see the reduced green fee rates for locals and SGU members.

Mark -

Castle Stuart was conceived and developed as an up-market business enterprise. There is no doubt about that. Assuming the global economy recovers, there will be a boutique hotel, a spa and fractional-ownership lodges built on the property over the next 3-5 years. There are also plans for a 2nd course. I don't want to put words or intentions in anyone's mouth, but it would not be a stretch to think that Castle Stuart aims to be a 21st century Gleneagles or Turnberry, albeit on a smaller scale.

A Swatch and a Rolex both tell the time in just about the same way. No doubt there is a market for both.

DT  

An interesting analogy.  I had in mind a Rolls Royce (TOC, Muirfield, Dornoch) and a gold plated Lexus.

It's surely possible to build a new, high quality links course, intended as part of an upmarket resort without building it to look like something it isn't?  It strikes me that an even better analogy would be a brand new luxury car, to an excellent spec but with deliberately worn leather seats and faded paintwork.

[Rob Rigg]

"Are the mini-faults in the fairways (#31, for example) unique to CS?"

Kidd implemented these at Tetherow and possibly The Castle as well.

[Brian Phillips]

Mark,

Why be so damning of the place before even seeing it?

[Marty Bonnar]

but this is SCOTLAND for God's sake.....You expect the courses to look old.

Anthony,
and there we have the fundamental point. In Scotland, we do not expect courses to look old, we expect Courses to BE old.

Adding fake oldness of course would work in Vegas and I'd be all for that. The thought of a homage to Scotland and golf somewhere like Vegas would be cool. What is needed in Scotland is great golf, not a facsimile of a Scottish golf course.

As we discussed by IM, I'm sorry I'm not going to be here for your visit. Funnily enough, I'm actually going to be in VEGAS!!!!

Have you been to Scotland before?

cheers,
FBD.

[Tom Dunne]

Mark Pearce,

If I recall correctly, Castle Stuart's green fee was already a source of displeasure for you, so it seems to me you would have come up with an argument against it regardless of what you saw in the photos.

Of course part of the style is faux-antiquity--no awards for that observation--we know that Gil Hanse found inspiration in Horace Hutchinson's British Golf Links. You find this pretentious and seem to be interested in injecting both class and nationality into this discussion, so:

My questions are: What do you want to see from a new course in the UK? Is it folly for a modern architect to aspire to design and build something great there? Or should they simply “know their place” and build the next Whingeley Common, a place where the subtle brilliance of the architecture will surely fly straight over the heads of the American philistine trophy hunter, leaving the postman and his missus to enjoy their usual game in peace blessedly free of those horrid Chicagoland accents?

Gil and Mark have (thoughtfully, in my opinion) come up with a design that puts the real artistry of modern course construction in the spotlight. Is it a fantasy? Sure, but at least it's one based on one aspect of the roots of the game in the UK, the way it once was—and still is, in places. I've seen little country courses in Wales that still have some of this aesthetic, no question.

I have to say I find it most interesting that the broken-in look of Castle Stuart is perceived in some quarters as the rich man dressing down. The Buddha did this and it went well for him.  Do you feel that a course needs to be one thing or the other: The formalism of Royal Lytham or the rustic simplicity of Boat of Garten? Does a course need to state its intentions as to how posh it really is?

As a final note, I just saw Marty Bonnar's post as I was posting this, and I have to wonder if this really cuts to the core of the debate:  "In Scotland we do not expect courses to look old, we expect Courses to BE old." I don't know if that's a tongue-in-cheek statement, but it certainly represents a dead end. Of course, Castle Stuart may very well offer what Mr. Bonnar is looking for--great golf. What a shame that it has the misfortune of being new, and what a shame that the architects had the nerve to try something different in the interest of an aesthetic statement.

[Anthony Gray]

but this is SCOTLAND for God's sake.....You expect the courses to look old.

Anthony,
and there we have the fundamental point. In Scotland, we do not expect courses to look old, we expect Courses to BE old.

Adding fake oldness of course would work in Vegas and I'd be all for that. The thought of a homage to Scotland and golf somewhere like Vegas would be cool. What is needed in Scotland is great golf, not a facsimile of a Scottish golf course.

As we discussed by IM, I'm sorry I'm not going to be here for your visit. Funnily enough, I'm actually going to be in VEGAS!!!!

Have you been to Scotland before?

cheers,
FBD.

  This fascinates me and was my point in my post. Will there ever be a modern course accepted in Scotland. Is it in the marrow of the scots bones to only embrace the old courses? Look at my post. Will it be embraced in 100 years? I have made more trips to St Andrews than I have fingers because I fell in love with the place. Too bad you are in Vegas at that time, I'll be dining at La Grange.

  What if you did not know it was new? Would you embrace it more?

  Do the irish feel the same way about Doonbeg? How do the scots feel about Kingsbarns?

   Anthony

[Melvyn Morrow]

I agree with Marty, in that I was not impressed with the old sleepers or the way of trying to age the course. My initial opinion was that something was missing and perhaps it is the idea of faking age instead of showing the quality of the design using the land.

I certainly do not like fake – to make something appear that which is not may hide more sinister items, which yet may still surface.

Why do we not just accept that natural and contoured nature of the site, why try to age it and make it appear as a suspect copy of a great masterpiece.

A smack of The Castle Course, perhaps but at least it seems more at home with its surroundings than that course.

Faking age is not the way I want to see golf course architecture going, as I mentioned above what else is still there to discover.

I do not expect a new golf course to look old, but the designer can reflect natural age within his design without surely going to these tacky methods.

Melvyn   

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

Do you want to write for our website and takeover our marketing work?  

That summed up my thoughts exactly.

Martin,

That sentence that Tom brought up is very negative if you meant it.  You trained as a Golf Course Architect together with myself, would you not be proud as punch to have designed something like you have seen in the photos?

To me it was inspiring to play there as was The Castle and The Renaissance, 3 very different golf courses but all superb in design by three totally different teams.

Brian.

[Brian Phillips]

Melvyn,

As soon as soon as an Architect puts in a bunker it is fake.

[Eric Smith]

I have to say I find it most interesting that the broken-in look of Castle Stuart is perceived in some quarters as the rich man dressing down.

Mark, like anyone else is entitiled to his opinion, though I think those quarters to be very small in the golf world and insignificant to the success of this venture.  Can you imagine a developer and his architect sharing a common goal of winning this crowd unilaterally?  My God, the insanity.

I love that Parsinen, Hanse and team shared a conscious goal of diving in to all of the details, which not only had to take a lot of time, but also much thought.  I am very excited to one day see Castle Stuart.


Also, this stuff about the sleepers looking too old...never read where anyone on here said that about Old Macdonald's Hell bunker.  Wait 'til you see Lehman's course at Prairie Club.  I think these are some of the most refreshing ideas implemented in Golf Course Architecture at present and I personally love the look (and the thoughtfulness put into their presentation.)

[David_Tepper]

Mark, Marty & Melvyn -

Just out of interest, came you name 2 or 3 courses built anywhere in GB&I in the last 25 years that meet your approval and can serve as a model for what you would like to see done in the future?

DT  

[Anthony Gray]

   OK...I am hooked on this faked aged thing.....And do not know exactly why.

   What kind of sleepers would you prefer?

   If this was the 5th course at Bandon.................

   I think without the old stuff you guys would complain it is too modern.

  And the question of IS IT POSSIBLE FOR A NEW COURSE TO BE ACCEPTED has not been addressed.

   Anthony


  

  

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

Why be so damning of the place before even seeing it?

Brian,

I'm not damning of the place.  If you read what I've said I'm happy to acknowledge it may be a very good golf course indeed (time may even judge it to be a great one).  It's that that makes the pretence of age and decay even more jarring.  I suspect I will end up playing it sometime.  I suspect I will enjoy it.  Nothing will ever make me comfortable with the apparent need to pretend it's something it is not.

Mark

[Brian Phillips]

Mark, Marty & Melvyn -

Just out of interest, came you name 2 or 3 courses built anywhere in GB&I in the last 25 years that meet your approval and can serve as a model for what you would like to see done in the future?

DT  

David,

Martin loves Kingsbarns, he told me so at Uni and the man worked there...!! 

[Brian Phillips]

Mark,

Why be so damning of the place before even seeing it?

Brian,

I'm not damning of the place.  If you read what I've said I'm happy to acknowledge it may be a very good golf course indeed (time may even judge it to be a great one).  It's that that makes the pretence of age and decay even more jarring.  I suspect I will end up playing it sometime.  I suspect I will enjoy it.  Nothing will ever make me comfortable with the apparent need to pretend it's something it is not.

Mark

It is not pretending to be anything other than a fun golf course for the middle handicap player...they have not preached about anything apart from showing their passion in the detail that they have put into the course...

It is just a golf course....that is all....

The point of living, and of being an optimist, is to be foolish enough to believe the best is yet to come.- Peter Ustinov

[Mark Pearce]

Mark Pearce,

If I recall correctly, Castle Stuart's green fee was already a source of displeasure for you, so it seems to me you would have come up with an argument against it regardless of what you saw in the photos.

Of course part of the style is faux-antiquity--no awards for that observation--we know that Gil Hanse found inspiration in Horace Hutchinson's British Golf Links. You find this pretentious and seem to be interested in injecting both class and nationality into this discussion, so:

My questions are: What do you want to see from a new course in the UK? Is it folly for a modern architect to aspire to design and build something great there? Or should they simply “know their place” and build the next Whingeley Common, a place where the subtle brilliance of the architecture will surely fly straight over the heads of the American philistine trophy hunter, leaving the postman and his missus to enjoy their usual game in peace blessedly free of those horrid Chicagoland accents?

Gil and Mark have (thoughtfully, in my opinion) come up with a design that puts the real artistry of modern course construction in the spotlight. Is it a fantasy? Sure, but at least it's one based on one aspect of the roots of the game in the UK, the way it once was—and still is, in places. I've seen little country courses in Wales that still have some of this aesthetic, no question.

I have to say I find it most interesting that the broken-in look of Castle Stuart is perceived in some quarters as the rich man dressing down. The Buddha did this and it went well for him.  Do you feel that a course needs to be one thing or the other: The formalism of Royal Lytham or the rustic simplicity of Boat of Garten? Does a course need to state its intentions as to how posh it really is?

As a final note, I just saw Marty Bonnar's post as I was posting this, and I have to wonder if this really cuts to the core of the debate:  "In Scotland we do not expect courses to look old, we expect Courses to BE old." I don't know if that's a tongue-in-cheek statement, but it certainly represents a dead end. Of course, Castle Stuart may very well offer what Mr. Bonnar is looking for--great golf. What a shame that it has the misfortune of being new, and what a shame that the architects had the nerve to try something different in the interest of an aesthetic statement.

Tom,

That's both lazy and unfair.  I'm a member of a Scottish course with a modern Hanse course which has been widely criticised.  I'm a big fan of it.  I have no problem wiith modern golf courses in Scotland (or anywhere else).  I have no problem with modern golf course design.  My problem, as would have been clear if you had read what I have posted, is with modern golf course design dressed up to look like something else, which these pictures suggest is what may be happening at Castle Stuart.  

This isn't about smartness or rusticity.  I've played and loved rustic and formal courses.  It's about why a brand new course should pretend to be something it isn't, or why a £150 a round course should aim to look like a course in decay.  This course may very well be a great golfing experience.  Why can't it look like a modern great golfing experience rather than needing some cosmetic patina of age and decay?

Just so I'm entirely clear, when did you play it and what were your impressions?  Or are you working on the pictures, just like I am?

Mark

[Mark Pearce]

Mark, Marty & Melvyn -

Just out of interest, came you name 2 or 3 courses built anywhere in GB&I in the last 25 years that meet your approval and can serve as a model for what you would like to see done in the future?

DT  

Easily.  Kingsbarns, Crail Craighead, Loch Lomond and the Carrick at Loch Lomond.  Given a bit longer I'm sure I could come up with more.  None of these pretend to be something they are not.  All may be inferior golf courses.

[Mark Pearce]

Eric and Anthony,

It's not the sleepers per se I object to.  It's the way there are obviously deliberate gaps between them and that they are arranged unevenly, to suggest that they were once, in history, uniform and neat but that time has worn them.  That's a lie.  By all means have sleepers but arrange them neatly, as the designers and builders of Prestwick, Royal North Devon and even Crail Balcomie did.  It's the pretence, not the sleepers that I don't get and don't like.

Mark

[DMoriarty]

Mark, Marty & Melvyn -

Just out of interest, came you name 2 or 3 courses built anywhere in GB&I in the last 25 years that meet your approval and can serve as a model for what you would like to see done in the future?

DT  

Easily.  Kingsbarns, Crail Craighead, Loch Lomond and the Carrick at Loch Lomond.  Given a bit longer I'm sure I could come up with more.  None of these pretend to be something they are not.  All may be inferior golf courses.

I think the pictures look very interesting and I'd love to see the place in person, and jealous of anyone who has or soon will.  Bastards All.

Mark,   Interesting that the first two on your list of courses that pass your test were created (in part at least) by those that brought us Castle Stuart.   Is it possible that they lost their bearings so quickly, or do you think that perhaps you might misunderstand their intent?

[Brian Phillips]

Eric and Anthony,

It's not the sleepers per se I object to.  It's the way there are obviously deliberate gaps between them and that they are arranged unevenly, to suggest that they were once, in history, uniform and neat but that time has worn them.  That's a lie.  By all means have sleepers but arrange them neatly, as the designers and builders of Prestwick, Royal North Devon and even Crail Balcomie did.  It's the pretence, not the sleepers that I don't get and don't like.

Mark

That is a very good answer Mark and maybe that is where Tom Doak manages to distinguish himself from all other architects in the world at the moment.  I saw that even more so at The Renaissance Club this week.

[Anthony Gray]

Eric and Anthony,

It's not the sleepers per se I object to.  It's the way there are obviously deliberate gaps between them and that they are arranged unevenly, to suggest that they were once, in history, uniform and neat but that time has worn them.  That's a lie.  By all means have sleepers but arrange them neatly, as the designers and builders of Prestwick, Royal North Devon and even Crail Balcomie did.  It's the pretence, not the sleepers that I don't get and don't like.

Mark

  Mark,

  I do not dispute your opinion...I just want to know more. Eric and I live in a a country that has Disneyworld and cosmetic surgery so fake is embraced. The recent movement in architecture is for the raw, less manicured look. Castle Stuart has all that. It seems to be the course that we are crying out for. If you were 100 more feet more above the water it would be Bandon. I can see it now Castle Keiser. How do you like Kingsbarns? Is Kingsbarns scotish? I am pulled to the golf culture in scotland and find it more to my liking that the golf culture in the states so it is great to hear you opinions.

  Anthony

[Eric Smith]

Old Macdonald

I haven't been, please someone post a better picture, but the sleepers have not looked uniform to me in the pics I've seen thus far.

[Anthony Gray]

  Someone please post a photo of the large bunker on the 11th at Whistling Straights.

  Thanks....Anthony

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