[Greg Tallman]

I would like to know if Mr. Tallman identifies himself as a manager of a golf club when he travels to play golf, and if so, the nature of his motivations.  Is it a matter of professional courtesy?  Are raters considered to be part of the industry and worthy of the customary benefits?

It is remarkable that something so many don't "give a shit" about generates so much discussion and angst.  I get it.  There is a potential conflict of interest.  No one should shed crocodile tears for those hard-working, well-motivated, mostly objective course raters.  And while they may not do God's work, they must be doing something that gets everyone up in a lather three or four times every year.

As to freebies, give me a freaking break!  I've been around to a number of site gatherings over the years and have found realtively few quick draws when it comes to the wallet.  I can think of a few guys who have been very critical of raters and their free golf, yet they had no qualms accepting comp rounds as my guests.  What's good for the goose is not always so for the gander, apparently.

How would I react in a similar situation as described?  I would explain succinctly, but completely and honestly to my host, and apologize for any confusion and discomfort I had inadvertantly caused.  Hopefully this will be sufficient.  As a former rater with a national publication, I ALWAYS wrote or called the GM, DoG, or HP well in advance of a planned visit to ask for permission to play and rate the course.  I typically got the name of the contact person at the club for my round, and normally asked for that person very discretely.  One of my goals when viisiting a private club was to be as invisible to the members and staff as possible, though I ALWAYS checked in briefly afterwards to thank them, and followed up again with a personal note of appreciation.     

You raise a valid question and the answer is obviously yes I do identify myself as whatever my current position happens to be, though introducing one`s self as HOA President is often met with a puzzling look. ANd yes it is seen as a professional courtesy even when hosted by a member who tells me that there is no need to contact the professional/Manager... I always do so, even is it risks friction with the host.

The introduction is always followed by the question as to the club's policy on visiting manager's/PGA professionals and I comply with there response with a gracious response regardless. I cannot say as much for many many panelsits who have sauntered into out facility over the years and that is my only point. Not all are as sincere about the duty at hand and understand the protocols as do the few gentlemen panelists who have posted on this thread.

Heck, I roll out the red carpet of sorts whenerver possible for posters from this board who contact me in advance of there visit and while I am rarely able to dust off the sticks I try to make an effort to greet them whenever possible as I know we share a common love for the game and architecture... Can I say the same for every panelist? I am afraid the answer is no and therein lies the basis for this discussion, at least in my mind.

And just for the record I reitterate that we have instituted a standing policy for panelists that is identical to that of PGA Professionals and GCSAA members. The professionalism from one group to the next varies greatly from my personal experience though admittedly I am but one among thousands.

[Lou_Duran]

Greg,

Thanks for the response.  There are folks in every endeavor who don't act responsibly (I am currently having trouble with neighbors who don't pick up after their dogs), but I want to believe that these are a minority.

BTW, I've played your course and think very highly of it.  I have played with Gib a couple of times and I bet he would enjoy it as well.  I know that you would enjoy his company though I would advise you to look away when he swings.

Gib,

I subscribe to the Golden Rule, though I fall short much too often in practice.  If I owned or managed a golf course, I would want to know who is playing the course, particularly raters and other people who influence opinions.  Call me stupid, but I care what people think, and getting feedback from some experienced folks who look at my property from a variety of angles and in relation to the competition has to be worth something (perhaps not as much as a green fee, maybe more, but something more than nothing).  Raters may not be superheroes, but they certainly are not the worthless, freebie seeking flunkies that some on this site paint them to be.  Well, maybe there are a couple here and there, present company excluded.  It would never occur to me that the management of a club wouldn't want to know that a rater was playing the course.  Certainly this information does not preclude them from asking "cash or plastic".

Funny you mention the assistant pros, because the only couple of times I've ever been treated rudely by someone at a club, it was by young, very junior level shop employees.  Talk about a hard, no thanks job.  You are absolutely right about being good to these folks.  They get it from every end, and are due much courtesy.  I didn't take it personally.  Perhaps they figured that raters are even lower on the totem pole and good pass-throughs for their frustrations.

One last thing on comp rounds affecting the rating of the course.  There is considerable research in social psychology suggesting that people who tend to pay high prices for something tend to value that thing or experience more highly.  It probably falls within the theory of cognitive dissonance, but if I paid $495 to play Pebble Beach, I might have to overcome my normal value orientation by somehow rationalizing that the course was so fantastic as to make the price relative to the experience fall within the range.  Does this make sense?  I am not suggesting that courses might jack up their guest fees when a rater walks in the door in order to gain a higher rating, but the rating that I most regret after further reflection was for a course where I was charged a very large green fee and had to jump through a bunch of hoops to line up a member.  Weird stuff.

[jeffwarne]

I was playing a well known course with another GD panelist when this situation occured. We were the guests of a member, but we called the pro a few weeks before just to let him know we were going to be there as a courtesy. We never spoke to him. When we arrived at the club, we went to the pro shop to introduce ourselves. There were 6 people in the shop, a couple of members, the pro (it turns out), and a fwe assistants. We asked is x was there and this is what followed.

"I don't know, have you seen x?"
"I am not sure, have you seen x?"
"I don't know, have you seen x?"
"I don't know, have you seen x?"
"Oh here he is"

And he was the guy standing there and I believe may have participated in the shenanigans. We finally meet him after totally looking like aholes for not knowing who the pro was.

We wanted to introduce ourselves as a courtesy since we had called him a few weeks before. We were not looking for a freebie, but he comped us anyway. I find out later that HE was upset at us for coming in looking for a freebie which in turn has made my host upset. How would this make you feel?

My guess is such behavior was the result of the staff's opinion of the member,not the raters........
although boorish nonetheless

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Newspaper and magazine writers who wax poetic because they obtained a free round of golf from some smarmy marketing hustler instantaneously induces an outbreak of Armenian Tourette's - which manifests itself as an unstoppable fire hose of shrieking profanity and vicious accusations of fraud.

I am uniquely qualified to adjudge leeches of their ilk because I used to be one. Except that with one exception, I declined every "press day" invitation at a new golf course and instead played on a normal day. For years I wrote lengthy reviews of courses (some new, some not) for my readership as part of a series to identify good "road trip" destinations.

Attending any event where a group of sports writers are provided (read: bribed) with free booze and finger food is like watching a stampede of cloven-hoofed swine with swollen snouts race towards the slop trough. The carnage is indescribable and after reading article after article from these gin-soaked leeches trumpeting the latest housing-driven abomination as "Truly Great," it was all I could do to clean the excrement off my spikes and vow never to soil myself in their presence again.

The difference was that my readership wanted to know the details, the cost and what I thought of the condition and strategic interest of the golf course. If they disagreed - well, let's just say I used to get more mail than the writers who covered football. Most of the 19 handicap part-time golf scribes wouldn't know a Redan from Granny Clark's Wynd and couldn't find St. Andrews on a map with Google search.

There is an enormous difference between a trained rater with a depth of knowledge and a bunch of chain smoking beat writers who don't even know what they are looking at - let alone possess the integrity to let their readership know exactly what they are spending their hard earned money to play.      

  
  

Gib

Sure, there is a difference between someone good at waxing poetically and someone who isn't.  The important thing is that they are trying to wax poetically rather than assign numbers to different elements of a course.  I realize the "pros" get comped as well, but at least we have something tangible for it at the end of the day.  That is why the more often than not waxed piece at least stands a chance of being worth something.  I still believe we would get a more accurate reflection of how the reviewer feels about the experience of a day out if its on his dime or perhaps even if he has a very limited expense account and it matters to him how he spends the money.  Like any product review (I always figure I am renting the course and club for a day when I choose to pay the green fee), much depends on whether or not you get the "pro" and if they tick the boxes you think are important.  We all have something which floats our boat.  Sometimes I do I get where the writer/reviewer is coming from and sometimes I don't - especially when they drone on about the "test", "challenge" or any other not so subtle way to describe diffciulty.

Ciao

[JC Jones]

Sean,

I just cannot find a way to articulate this to you in a manner that is any clearer than has been done.  To someone who plays a lot of golf and plays or has played a lot of free golf, the amount of the fee or whether it was paid at all has no bearing on their feelings about the course.  In fact, there is a course that I live near where I can play for free whenever I want and I choose to pay to play at other courses because I just dont care for the free course.  In addition, from my understanding of the rating process, the raters dont actually write anything.

[Joe Hancock]

In regards to Jim's original situation, I would have diffused the situation with humor...."what, did somebody step on a duck?....."

Joe

[JC Jones]

In regards to Jim's original situation, I would have diffused the situation with humor...."what, did somebody step on a duck?....."

Joe

Joe,

I'd save the attempts at humor for someone who is actually funny....   Like Bogey holding court the Sunday morning at Kingsley, man that was funny.

[Joe Hancock]

In regards to Jim's original situation, I would have diffused the situation with humor...."what, did somebody step on a duck?....."

Joe

Joe,

I'd save the attempts at humor for someone who is actually funny....   Like Bogey holding court the Sunday morning at Kingsley, man that was funny.

See, that's a problem for me. I'm not perceptive enough to know my audience. Bogey, on the other hand, knows when to drop the "K-Mart by the Sea" (or was it Walmart?) line for full effect.

Still learning,

Joe

[JC Jones]

It was Kmart and that still cracks me up. 

[Charlie Goerges]

I had thought this thread was a total train-wreck a few pages ago. It looks like it has been turned around and is now a fruitful discussion.

Good on you, boys.

[Gib_Papazian]

Just for the record, GD raters evaluate the various categories without an overall number. There is a text field - the point of which is to articulate your impressions and back up the rationale for the numbers you chose. I find this very useful because I never quite come to grips with what I think about anything - including a golf course - until I am forced to dig it out of my skull by writing about it.

I'm not sure how GW does it these days, but at one point there were worksheets with the various categories as an aid to ascertain an overall number. This is a different philosophy than G.D. obviously, but I've come to believe the variance between the two lists has as much to do with the complexion of the panel as the methodology.

I have always divided golfers into two categories: Those who prefer a straightforward examination and those who view the game as a whimsical adventure. To me, this preference is the *real* determining factor on how a given panelist is likely to evaluate a given stimulus. Every panel needs some of both. Personally, I am a hopeless romantic who nearly weeps in joy at the mere thought of Cruden Bay or North Berwick.

Last week I told a fellow panelist that I would much rather play The Creek Club than Winged Foot West and he burst out laughing like I was a complete loon. To each his own madness I suppose.

We can all be divided between those who prefer NGLA and Shinnecock and there is not much more to say than that. All the rating systems and number crunching in the world cannot overcome the basic hard-wiring of left and right brained golfers.      

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I just cannot find a way to articulate this to you in a manner that is any clearer than has been done.  To someone who plays a lot of golf and plays or has played a lot of free golf, the amount of the fee or whether it was paid at all has no bearing on their feelings about the course.  In fact, there is a course that I live near where I can play for free whenever I want and I choose to pay to play at other courses because I just dont care for the free course.  In addition, from my understanding of the rating process, the raters dont actually write anything.

JC

Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree as I am more concerned about the day out than necessarily the strict quality of the course.  I long ago gave up on trying to get to the nuts and bolts of quality from nearly anybody else except trusted folks and myself.  Why?  Because its all in the eye of the beholder despite the efforts of panels to objectify and codify courses.  Its enough for me to know the course is of a certain standard (as I will check with many sources) which I know when I see it and then the rest I leave up to the writer to make me want to visit.  Someone's idea of quality of design is too vague and not enough to get me somewhere unless its easy and cheap to do so.  For me to actually travel any real distance specifically for golf means I am looking for something special.  I want the writer to convey what is special - something ratings just can't do.  To date, nobody has done it better than Doak for so many courses - though Ran is making it a very close run affair.  I like how Ran lays down all the fiddly bits of a review and usually makes me want to continue reading, but I also like how Doak sticks his neck out with a number which is incredibly accurate much of the time.  I wish Ran would do this after his reviews, but I get the feeling it would just be a string of similar ratings.

Ciao

[Greg Tallman]

DELETED

[Anthony Gray]

  Greg,

  As a dentist everyone in the office knows that when the church sends someone over they expect it to be free. Does it get old at times? Yes. Is it disrespectful at times ? Yes. Do people expect free work? Yes.

  Anthony

[Gib_Papazian]

Anthony,

Does the vicar send over anybody in the habit of stuffing a Jackson in the breast pocket of the hygienist? Is the beggar accompanied by another member (or two) of the flock who pays full bore for a root canal? How about all those extras?





 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It also seems to be a miscommuncation to me as well. My rule of thumb is if I am a guest of a Member I NEVER bring up that I am a rater. I pay the guest fee to the member or however he wants it handled. I try to introduce myself to the pro if the opportunity arises to ask a few qustions I miught have had about the course. I do the same if the super is available.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,

Does the vicar send over anybody in the habit of stuffing a Jackson in the breast pocket of the hygienist? Is the beggar accompanied by another member (or two) of the flock who pays full bore for a root canal? How about all those extras?





 

   The assumptions of the office is due to prior experience. It is most likely the same for Greg. It is humane nature to lump people together because of past experiences. I would imangine if some raters would have expected a free round then others would be put in that catagory, possibly unfairly. just because I've been married four times does not mean I can't communicate with weomen. From your posting I can see that you sense the need to justify the desire to be a rater/your rating style. You should not feel the need to justify your reasons. You know the truth. But recognize that some may not have pure motives and that some have come across them. But to be labeled stinks.

  Anthony

 

[Gib_Papazian]

John,

You are correct there is a mis-communication here. It was my impression this discussion was one where a panelist was specifically assigned a private club and rang up a member or arranged a "friend of a friend" type thing. In that case, it would never occur to me to whip out the card unless I wanted to look like a pompous ass.

That is purely recreational golf and although I might (or might not if I was not REALLY paying attention) make some notes and post a rating, I don't know if I would even tell the member. Jeez, that is like being invited over to somebody's house and telling them upfront you plan to rate how their wife looks in spandex.

My sense is that many of the Treehouse do not quite get the difference between recreational golf and going out there with a specific purpose. There is a chasm between these two concepts - at least for me.

 

[Greg Tallman]

  Greg,

  As a dentist everyone in the office knows that when the church sends someone over they expect it to be free. Does it get old at times? Yes. Is it disrespectful at times ? Yes. Do people expect free work? Yes.

  Anthony

Anthony, As we would say back home... those church folk sure aint shy! I may be one of the few people from our native area to not have had a single issue related to my teeth (knock on wood) with my only visit in the last couple of decades being a cleaning/whitening trip... and that was only because she is one of the cutest dentists one would care to meet!

For the record I took the over in Vegas as they have our beloved Mountaineers at 8.5 for the over/under on wins. Sadly it could go either way but if Billy Boy can't get 10 wins with this schedule then back to Fairmont State he goes! Do you peruse Bluegoldnews.com at all? My screen name is rather easy to figure out as are my feelings about the leaders of our athletic department.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming... Today on "As The Rater Behaves"...

[Greg Tallman]

John,

My sense is that many of the Treehouse do not quite get the difference between recreational golf and going out there with a specific purpose. There is a chasm between these two concepts - at least for me.

 

With this comment I believe we have hit on a major difference between yourself and many of the other panelists.

You may have also touched on an interesting concept with the spandex ratings as well... one needs to know how their friends view certain things.

[Jason Topp]

This is very simple:

#1. Write a note of apology to your host and copy it to the Pro.

#2. Write a note to the Pro thanking him for the comp, but expressing disappointment that he perceived you were looking for a freebie. Explain that you have a policy of always introducing yourself to the pro as an ethical courtesy. Enclose a check for the fees and your business card letting him know you would be delighted to host one of his members at your club. Copy to the member.

#3. Let Topsy or Ron know what happened because things get twisted around and you don't want either of them blindsided. They need to know about clubs who treat us poorly. There is no law that says comp's should be provided, but there is also no law that says raters should take a bunch of bullshit after driving three hours on their own dime to play a new golf course looking for members or customers.

One thing that I do is try and insist the pro shop make a copy of my GD card for their files. The reason is that a rater friend of mine discovered that some idiot was running around the Carolinas pretending to be him - obviously to get free rounds. The lid came off when the reprobate got good and drunk and made an idiot of himself. It got back to my friend, who figured out who it was and rerouted his rectum, but the damage was done to the integrity of the panel and his reputation.

The fact is that most of us do not need a rater card to play golf. Speaking for myself, I do it out of sheer love for golf architecture and cannot recall a single instance where I tried to arrange a round at a top 100 course using my seat on the panel. The vast majority of our assignments are at new or recently remodeled courses that are vying for Best in State or Best New or Best Remodel or Best Hot Dog Cart. It involves a lot a driving and staying at Motel 6's - and some of them are marginal courses with little appeal. Others are damn good.

So, if the pro and his staff act like you snuck in the service entrance to play Pine Valley, they either have small dick syndrome or are well on their way to running somebody's huge investment into the dirt.    

 

I don't really care about this topic but I just read this. 

Gib -  I am glad you are posting again.

[Mike_Young]

I have read all these pages AND none of it has changed my mind on how I see the "free" rater stuff.  I have owned or been partners in two  golf courses.  And would say this:
the average course probably gives away plenty of rounds they don't realize:
For instance our pro went on vacation one week and the salesmen from the Honda dealer come in to play.  I go to ring them up and am told that they have a deal with the pro whereby they service his car and he takes care of their golf....same went for a local restaurant/bar(not to say this of all pros)  Do you realize that if a foursome a day is comped a $50 market rate.....that's 70,000 dollars per year....we later realized that saturday sales were usually about the same but when the asst pro worked the tee sheet was full and the computer system showed all the green fees that had been paid...but when the main guy worked about 30% of the revenue was coded in the computer under lessons he gave for the week......so one could just make a deal with his pro to give him one comp foursome a day / work for free and do what you wish with that foursome....charge or free....

Once that 8 minute tee time passes it never returns....

BUT my biggest complaint and really only complaint with raters is the ones that come in with an ATTITUDE of here I am and you need me and go about in a cocky air.....the ones that are humble and show some humility can play all they wish...they will never be a problem....of course that is true for people in general..not just raters.....

[john_stiles]

Have not read through the entire 6 pages,  but, if I was PLAYING as a guest of a member,  my thought would be to show up,  pay as a guest, and go play.    If you are playing as a guest of a member,  and then bring up being a rater to the club,  that would seem to be an issue unless the host member approves of such.

If the staff or host asked, before or after the round if anyone was a rater,  there would then not be any reason to deny the fact.

If the rater, as a 'guest' and without being asked,  states that they are a rater,  then it could create an issue.

Maybe someone else has posted the same above, and so my apology if this is repetitive.

Of course, if you called in the beginning and arranged play as a rater (versus host arranging guest play) then the golf shop staff was going overboard.

In this case,  their amusement at your expense wasn't needed either, and I would have billed you as a guest after I discussed the matter with the host member.

[Gib_Papazian]

Greg,

Spandex ratings of any variety are dangerous in my household. Many in the Treehouse know The Redhead, who believes the quickest way to a man's heart is with a buck knife between the ribs. It is a bit like having a doberman - unbelievable protection in any situation, but it will bite its owner if provoked.

On a side note, I normally come up with an overall numerical rating (Doak scale sort of thing) after playing a course as a mental exercise. Much of the time when I travel to a course, I bring the Redhead, who likes to walk along and take a picture or two. It is astounding that with all my pedantic analysis that my wife can guess my overall rating with 90% accuracy.

I mean to the 1/4 point.

It pisses me off a little bit because she barely knows which end of the club to hold.

Maybe I'm not as smart as I imagine - or just mind-numbingly predictable.  

[Peter Ferlicca]

Ok, I know this thread has gone on for a while now, and honestly I have read almost all the opinions.  I work in the business as an Assistant Pro at Stone Eagle, we try to offer the best service we can whomever comes in the golf shop.  If you are a guest of a member, we are going to treat you as if you are a member.  If you are an unaccompanied guest who is labeled as a rater on the tee sheet you will still be treated as a top tier guest, but DO NOT act as if you belong at the club.  Many raters literally pull up to valet and act as if they are a member when they come in the golf shop, (one incident was a rater came with his buddy, which I will talk about later, and they came into the shop to check in, a member just pulled in with a foursome, I kindly asked the rater if they wouldn't mind hitting balls for a while and let the foursome go out before them.  The rater replied with a remark saying but we are only a twosome.  I don't care who you are, unless you are paying the THOUSANDS of dollars the member is paying to belong to the club, you are always treated second.  IMO you are privileged in the job you have to be able to go around to high end private clubs and play the course most of the time comped.  Be respectful in the process, and realize that you are receiving a special treat that day. 

Now from what I have read so far Gib and Jim Franklin sound like very honorable raters that we would love to have.  BUT, like Greg Tallman has stated before you are two of HUNDREDS of raters.  And to be frank, most of them are drop the rater name status whenever they can to get a free round.  Trust me when you receive over 20 calls from different raters in one week, it gets old. 

Now my only other concern is when the raters call up wanting to come and play, and then, "oh yeah, and also I have three guys with me too."  IMHO, they do not need to come.  I know you guys want someone to play with, but they do not deserve to play a private club just because they are friends with a rater.  When I go play other private clubs I ALWAYS go by myself because I never want to impose them with other unwanted guests, the way I look at it, I am fortunate enough just for them letting me out.  So, I always look at a rater wanting to come out with his buddies as just a joke, looking for a fun round of golf.  Like GIB said, you are out there to do a job and study the course, not to mess around with your buddies playing a money game.

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