How would you react?

[Jim Franklin]

Tom -

I don't know, but I always call before I go. Like what was said before, I certainly don't want to ambush someone and this particular course happens to be a top tier venue so I wanted the pro to know we were going to be there. I sent him a thank you after the round and never mentioned the incident, but I tell you I was pissed. I did not let that interfere with my rating as I loved the course, but I could care less if I ever go back. I don't need to be treated like that. You don't need to throw the fact that you are a high end snobby club in my face; I can get that at home .

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave/Jim:

Ok if it's a place one will never return to - and one that seems to care if they are rated - I get what you are saying.

But read back to my example given re OClub Lake.  Do I announce myself in that situation?  Also, I am fortunate to often be a guest of Mr. Huntley at MPCC - do I announce myself then?

That's more what I am talking about here. 

Note I also rarely have questions for supers, or care about club histories.  But perhaps I ought not to have admitted that. 

TH

[Jim Franklin]

With Bob's known disdain for raters, I would not call MPCC either . I always like to call and as Shivas said, you never know what you can find out if you don't. A few clubs have taken me to archives rooms and given me some pretty cool tours. If I had not called, I can just about guarantee that would not happen.

[Cabell Ackerly]

Jim - what difference does it make if it's a top tier venue? Why would you call ahead at a top venue, but not another? I'm genuinely curious.

There are a lot of reasons to call in advance even if you're a guest of a member.  For example, you might want to ask something as simple as whether the super will be around that specific day before or after the round if you have any questions.  Same for the pro, or for older clubs, the club historian.  

Dave - Do you really have to announce yourself as a rater beforehand to get this information? Would they not provide the same to a regular guest?

I understand Tom's dilemma. If there's no other way to get access to a club, of course you should call in advance. And if they can't accept your money, I can understand taking a comp. BUT....I do have a hard time believing you couldn't insist that you pay your own way (and I don't think that would be offensive to the club).

[Tom Huckaby]

Cabell:  believe it.  There are plenty of private clubs that do not accept any form of payment, cash or otherwise.  Everything gets billed to the member.  And if you are there sans member, you are a guest of the club.  There is simply no way to pay even if you demand to do so.  And demanding to do so in and of itself would be exceedingly weird in such a circumstance.  In any case, I still think the bottom line is there is no perfect way to handle any of this.. and that most do what is right.

Jim:  obviously the MPCC situation is clear.  But what about Olympic Lake?  I was there for NCGA course rating, but of course I am also a "rater" of the kind so reviled in here.  Should I have announced my presence to the pro?  Also, what if I honestly don't care about archive rooms or special tours?

TH

[Mike Hendren]

This seems far more cut and dry to me:  A rater hosted by a member of a private club should behave as any other guest would.  

[Tom Huckaby]

This seems far more cut and dry to me:  A rater hosted by a member of a private club should behave as any other guest would.  

Bingo dingo.  That's how I have always acted (I hope).  Announcing my presence to the pro... shoot I wouldn't do that as a guest of a member, so why should I given my reviled rater status?

[Cabell Ackerly]

Cabell:  believe it.  There are plenty of private clubs that do not accept any form of payment, cash or otherwise.  Everything gets billed to the member.  And if you are there sans member, you are a guest of the club.  There is simply no way to pay even if you demand to do so. 

Tom - I hear you, and by no means would I expect anyone to go way out of their way to pay. What do you do if you want to buy something in the pro shop...and you're not the guest of a member?

[Jim Franklin]

Cabell -

I was replying to Joel's post. I generally call every place I go to give them notice. Maybe that's wrong. There are some courses that report back to GD that they have not seen any panelists. I want them to know that I was there.

And they did not know we were panelists when they started the "I don't know, have you seen..." crap. Being a panelist had nothing to do with the way we were treated. We could have been guests just wanting to thank the pro or tell him how much we enjoyed the course.

[Tom Huckaby]

Cabell:  believe it.  There are plenty of private clubs that do not accept any form of payment, cash or otherwise.  Everything gets billed to the member.  And if you are there sans member, you are a guest of the club.  There is simply no way to pay even if you demand to do so. 

Tom - I hear you, and by no means would I expect anyone to go way out of their way to pay. What do you do if you want to buy something in the pro shop...and you're not the guest of a member?

Simple - you don't buy anything. Happens at most private clubs.

TH

[Melvyn Morrow]

To save embarrassment all round anyone going to review a club/course should automatically pay for their round. His reimbursement is down to who ever asked for the review.

That leaves the person free to be totally honest and not beholding to the club or any Member.  I do agree with Richard that the identity should not be disclosed until after the round and assessment has been made. Protects all parties allowing for that hopefully honest review.  

Melvyn

[JC Jones]

Cabell:  believe it.  There are plenty of private clubs that do not accept any form of payment, cash or otherwise.  Everything gets billed to the member.  And if you are there sans member, you are a guest of the club.  There is simply no way to pay even if you demand to do so. 

Tom - I hear you, and by no means would I expect anyone to go way out of their way to pay. What do you do if you want to buy something in the pro shop...and you're not the guest of a member?

Simple - you don't buy anything. Happens at most private clubs.

TH

Yes, but then how would I be able to brag to the world that I had played Cypress Point without being able to show off my shiny new hat?

[Tom Huckaby]

To save embarrassment all round anyone going to review a club/course should automatically pay for their round. His reimbursement is down to who ever asked for the review.

That leaves the person free to be totally honest and not beholding to the club or any Member.  I do agree with Richard that the identity should not be disclosed until after the round and assessment has been made. Protects all parties allowing for that hopefully honest review.  

Melvyn

Insert large sigh.

Once again Melvyn your principles are impeccable, but your connection to the real world of how it works in US golf anyway is tenuous at best.

I have given examples earlier in this thread in which this cannot be done.  To save you the trouble, here's one:

Take my real life example posted earlier in this thread:  my two courses near Tahoe I am doing soon - each private clubs - there's no way I can access either without asking permission.  Also neither will accept any form of payment.  I have to do each as I am assigned to do so, and in fact one of them does not yet have the requisite number of visits required to qualify for consideration as Best New.

So what am I to do in this circumstance?


Just note that in general, anonymity is of course preferred, and most do pay when they can pay.  It just doesn't work out that way always (love that word).

TH

ps - JC  - thankfully for all, Cypress Point does take all forms of payment.  But then again, the thought they accept raters is the largest laugh of the day.   

[JC Jones]

  True enough.  It was the closest uber-private club that I could think of that was closest to you!!

[Richard Choi]

Huck, obviously, if the club is private and the only way to get access is to ask for access, you cannot stay incognito. But in cases like this where you already have access, I think the fairest thing to do is to stay incognito.

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck, obviously, if the club is private and the only way to get access is to ask for access, you cannot stay incognito. But in cases like this where you already have access, I think the fairest thing to do is to stay incognito.

I'd agree with that for sure.  But others seem to want to announce their presence.  Heck, each situation has its own variables.. hard to generalize either way.

And JC... good call.   

[Gib_Papazian]

This is very simple:

#1. Write a note of apology to your host and copy it to the Pro.

#2. Write a note to the Pro thanking him for the comp, but expressing disappointment that he perceived you were looking for a freebie. Explain that you have a policy of always introducing yourself to the pro as an ethical courtesy. Enclose a check for the fees and your business card letting him know you would be delighted to host one of his members at your club. Copy to the member.

#3. Let Topsy or Ron know what happened because things get twisted around and you don't want either of them blindsided. They need to know about clubs who treat us poorly. There is no law that says comp's should be provided, but there is also no law that says raters should take a bunch of bullshit after driving three hours on their own dime to play a new golf course looking for members or customers.

One thing that I do is try and insist the pro shop make a copy of my GD card for their files. The reason is that a rater friend of mine discovered that some idiot was running around the Carolinas pretending to be him - obviously to get free rounds. The lid came off when the reprobate got good and drunk and made an idiot of himself. It got back to my friend, who figured out who it was and rerouted his rectum, but the damage was done to the integrity of the panel and his reputation.

The fact is that most of us do not need a rater card to play golf. Speaking for myself, I do it out of sheer love for golf architecture and cannot recall a single instance where I tried to arrange a round at a top 100 course using my seat on the panel. The vast majority of our assignments are at new or recently remodeled courses that are vying for Best in State or Best New or Best Remodel or Best Hot Dog Cart. It involves a lot a driving and staying at Motel 6's - and some of them are marginal courses with little appeal. Others are damn good.

So, if the pro and his staff act like you snuck in the service entrance to play Pine Valley, they either have small dick syndrome or are well on their way to running somebody's huge investment into the dirt.    

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Dave/Jim:

Ok if it's a place one will never return to - and one that seems to care if they are rated - I get what you are saying.

But read back to my example given re OClub Lake.  Do I announce myself in that situation?  Also, I am fortunate to often be a guest of Mr. Huntley at MPCC - do I announce myself then?

Of course not - unless you specifically want to talk to them before or after the round about something and you just really want to make sure they'll be there.

Cool.  So many uses of "always" lately, I was wondering if all common sense had gone out the window here.

 

[Anthony Gray]

  Sometimes there is just no possible way to proove your intentions. Just because you are a rater does not mean you want access or free golf. And you should not be obligated to proove to people your intentions. Ways to protect yourself have been suggested and practiced obviously.

  But I would like to add this little story. One of my wives had had a root canal at one point in her life before we met. I do not know where it was done , possible on some island or in the states, but it went bad. I did not want to deal with her so I went with her to the specialists office and he did it. The front desk said it was no charge. A $1000 dollar discount. I refer patients to this guy so I make him money, so in some ways he was blessing me back. But to show my appreciation the next week I sent over two specialty cakes and a box of tooth brushes for his staff and a $200 gift certificate to Gap For Kids because the guy had three small children. I thought it was a nice jesture AND I'm still up 750 bucks...For what that was worth.

   Anthony

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

There you go again telling me off for not having any idea how it works in the USA.

The point I suppose is who wants the review, the club or an outside organisation. If the club is not interested, then a problem, as we should respect the privacy of these private clubs. However if it is for the Senior Management then there are ways it can be achieved. Anyone involved in Blue Chip business will know of the secret internal surveys and reports that are undertaken on behalf of the Chairman or the CEO. It’s a question of wheels within wheels. 

You need to cool my friend, it’s only a discussion group.

Melvyn

[Scott_Burroughs]

Gib,

If it's OK with Topsy, would you mind listing your top 5 Hot Dog Carts?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom

There you go again telling me off for not having any idea how it works in the USA.

The point I suppose is who wants the review, the club or an outside organisation. If the club is not interested, then a problem, as we should respect the privacy of these private clubs. However if it is for the Senior Management then there are ways it can be achieved. Anyone involved in Blue Chip business will know of the secret internal surveys and reports that are undertaken on behalf of the Chairman or the CEO. It’s a question of wheels within wheels.  

You need to cool my friend, it’s only a discussion group.

Melvyn

Melvyn:

There you go again assuming bad intentions when none were present.   And that was "telling you off"?  Wow, I gotta share that with my kids, who think I really do tell them off far too often...

Hell yes it's just a discussion group; I might give your advice right back at you, but then again I have come to assume you are smiling as you post.  I had hoped you did the same in return.  But just to make sure....

 

Jeez man I had thought we were way beyond this.  I mean no harm.  It is all in good fun.  My gosh, I took all your jibes in earlier posts and accept your interesting names regarding fence-sitting, and you still think I am telling you off in return?  That makes zero sense.

SO LET'S GET BEYOND THIS.. ALL POSTS BETWEEN YOU AND ME ARE ALL IN GOOD FUN.  Done, OK?

But the bottom line is this:  if you make a statement like you did, and assume it always works in every situation, then you really do not know how golf works over here.  I have given you an example where it's necessary to announce one's presence as a rater, and one cannot pay.  It happens fairly often here.  So again - NO OFFENSE INTENDED, ALL IN GOOD FUN - your advice just doesn't work.  Not ALWAYS, anyway.

Let's insert some more, just to make sure.....

 

By the way, in these situations also, it's damn near always the club wanting the rating to be done.

[Greg Tallman]

What prupose does it serve to introdcuce yourself as a panelist? Seriously what is the purpose?

[Kenny Baer]

Tom,

I am in no way trying to be offensive but I am sure you can gain access to a new golf club, even though it is Private.  Having to tell them you are a rater is just one of multiple ways to get on a course of that nature.  

Write a letter telling them you would like to play...
Have your pro call....
Call the real estate office...
And the list goes on......

I agree that membership has it's privelages and all the power to you for being a rater; sometimes life isn't fair to the rest of us....oh well.

[Michael Blake]

This one seems to be a unique situation (rater is also guest of member)

I think in this event, being a guest of the member trumps being a rater and there is no need to contact the pro for any reason.  Let the member decide to notify the pro that his guest is a rater, if he feels it is necessary.  Or simply ask the member what he feels is the proper protocol.

You said they didn't know you were a panelist.  Are you sure your host didn't tell them?  Their behavior seems pretty strange either way.