Mar del Plata

« **on:** July 05, 2009, 11:14:02 PM »

Has anyone played this course in Argentina, back in the day some said it was amongst the beat courses in the world? I believe it was laid by or with assistance laid out of Jack Park, Willie's brother, who was also involved at Maidstone. I think Mungo Park was involved as well. The old pictures I've seen remind of Durban in South Africa or Paraparauma in NZ, heaving ground by the sea.

« **Reply #1 on:** July 05, 2009, 11:21:11 PM »

Welcome back!

GCAer Carl Nichols is living in Argentina and playing all the courses down there, may have some answers on Mar del Plata.

« **Reply #2 on:** July 06, 2009, 09:43:02 AM »

I walked Mar del Plata several years ago -- it´s a cool seaside course set into the hillside overlooking the Atlantic Ocean. I don´t know exactly how big the property is, but it looked pretty small, and they seemed to have gotten the most out of the land with a cool routing. Unfortunately I don´t have any information about its origins or history -- perhaps Tom Dunne or Randy Thompson might.

« **Reply #3 on:** July 06, 2009, 06:32:44 PM »

Hello Tom,

nice to see you are back here, it will probably take you another 24 hours until you have more posts than I have done during the last 5 months!

I do have some old postcards from Mar del Plata in my collection - maybe you find them interesting and/or helpful.

My Argentine Golf Guide "Golf Guia de Campos Argentinos" publ. 2003 by Claudia Mazucco tells me that golf was first introduced to Mar del Plata by the British around 1890. The golf club was founded on January 17th, 1900 and the current 18-hole course opened in 1916 - The book (and another one I have) states that the course was designed by Juan Dentone, the then professional at Club Atletic Lomas at Buenos Aires.

Mar del Plata GC was a founding member of the Argentine Golf Federation in 1926. Would be interesting to hear from Carl if the impressive bunkering one can see on the postcards still exists today...from the modern pictures I have seen the area with the two greens around the clubhouse looks quite similar. I would be interested to learn more about that place......

Regards

Christoph

« **Reply #4 on:** July 06, 2009, 07:03:13 PM »

Love that half-timbered clubhouse.

One thing you had to note in Buenos Aires is all the British architecture, from the clock tower to the train station. Great Britain was Argentina's #1 foreign ally until sometime in the '30s when they suddenly weren't. I could be wrong about that history and the dates, but there was definitely a close relationship, had to do with the railroads, and then a parting of the ways.

« **Reply #5 on:** July 06, 2009, 07:14:31 PM »

The railroads seem to be an important factor with the creation of Mar del Plata GC (my Spanish is a bit rusty so I do not understand every single word in my guide) appearantly the pre 1900 British golfers had a primitive course which had to be moved when a railway line was built to Mar del Plata and in 1899 Frank Henderson, the British manager of the "Ferrocarril Sud" was one of the leading figures behind the foundation of Mar del Plata GC....

Bill, clubhouses are usually not the topic of discussion here, but please find enclosed some more historic postcards of the Mar del Plata GC clubhouse...

CM

« **Reply #6 on:** July 06, 2009, 07:32:35 PM »

Christoph
Those are really cool pictures. It does look like it was a special course. I have some info about the Parks involvement somewhere. I'll see if I can dig it up.

You can see the British influence in the clubhouse.

« **Reply #7 on:** July 06, 2009, 07:56:21 PM »

Tom,

I also remember having read sth. about the Park's involvement there - so it would be great in case you could dig up something in your archive....

Regards

Christoph

« **Reply #8 on:** July 06, 2009, 08:13:35 PM »

Quote from: Bill_McBride on July 06, 2009, 07:03:13 PM

Love that half-timbered clubhouse.

One thing you had to note in Buenos Aires is all the British architecture, from the clock tower to the train station. Great Britain was Argentina's #1 foreign ally until sometime in the '30s when they suddenly weren't. I could be wrong about that history and the dates, but there was definitely a close relationship, had to do with the railroads, and then a parting of the ways.

The Argies are good learners as well since they are now, arguably, better than the English at Soccer, Rugby, and Golf. I don't know much about Polo but I believe that they are also exception at that sport.

« **Reply #9 on:** July 06, 2009, 08:46:04 PM »

I found a couple of article in Golf Illustrated (British). The first article in 1904. Mar del Plata is a nine hole course and they compare it to Deal and Machrihanish. "The Argentine golfers owe a special debt of gratitude to Mr. T.T. Watson, an American golfer, who has done, perhaps, more than any other for golf in the River Plate, and who has given the Mar del Plata course his special care and attention." Watson was the Honorary Secretary of Buenos Aires GC. Mungo Park was the pro at BA. Frank Henderson is the President of BA.

The second article is very similar to the first, almost word for word. It compares the course to Deal and Machrihanish, and credits Watson. It mentions Mungo won the Argentine Open this year, and his brother Jack Park was second.

The next article comes Golf magazine (American) in 1905. "Mungo Park brother of Willie Park, professional at Buenos Ayres GC, and formerly of Dyker Meadow, has accorded high praise to this course. He pronounces the Mar del Plata links to be one of the best he has seen anywhere in America, North or South, and naturally quite equal to the seaside links in Great Britain." The course is compared to Machrihanish again.

The last article comes from Golf (American) March 1907. "One of the few places in South America where golf flourishes is at Mar del Plata, a delightful seaside resort of the Buenos Aires residents. The Mar del Plata GC has a new nine-hole course laid out, with the advice and assistance of Jack Park, formerly of Essex County CC, and afterwards the Golf Club Argentino."

It sounds like Watson deserves credit for the first nine and Jack Park the second, up until 1907.

« **Reply #10 on:** July 06, 2009, 09:18:32 PM »

Tom....what a nice surprise to read your words again!

« **Reply #11 on:** July 06, 2009, 10:55:04 PM »

Quote from: Wayne_Kozun on July 06, 2009, 08:13:35 PM

Quote from: Bill_McBride on July 06, 2009, 07:03:13 PM
Love that half-timbered clubhouse.

One thing you had to note in Buenos Aires is all the British architecture, from the clock tower to the train station. Great Britain was Argentina's #1 foreign ally until sometime in the '30s when they suddenly weren't. I could be wrong about that history and the dates, but there was definitely a close relationship, had to do with the railroads, and then a parting of the ways.
The Argies are good learners as well since they are now, arguably, better than the English at Soccer, Rugby, and Golf. I don't know much about Polo but I believe that they are also exception at that sport.

Wayne, you'd put Cabrera and Romero up against Poulter, Donald, Rose, and all the other good Brit players? Or just two on two??

« **Reply #12 on:** July 07, 2009, 05:30:49 AM »

Hello Tom,

thank you for your addtional interesting information - the Golf Illustrated U.S. also mentions Mar del Plata several times,

Leonard Macomber writes Golf Illustrated (U.S.) June 1921 under the title "The Game in South America"

"The Mar del Plata course is probably the best in the Buenos Aires district, although with only a
total measurement of 5.098 yards. it is much too short and congested. Some of the construction work is
excellent and some of it is very bad indeed. On a nice sandy loam the seaside turf is excellent and, with
varying strong winds along the coast, the course is certainly interesting and difficult. There is a municipal casino and a club where
roulette is played afternoons and evenings and the places are filled with fools of all nationalities during the summer season."

There is another article by William B. Powell in Golf Illustrated (U.S.) December 1932 with a nice picture of Mar del Plata Golf Course:

« **Reply #13 on:** July 07, 2009, 05:50:13 AM »

Here are some picture I found showing how the Mar del Plata Cancha Vieja (Old course as it is called now - as opposed th cancha nueva - new course - a second 18 -hole course a few km away just outside town) looks like today:

« **Reply #14 on:** July 07, 2009, 06:21:39 AM »

Please find enclose a current aerial of the golf course - you can see the two greens in front of the club house as well as the street roundabout which is also visible on one of the vintage postcards...

The second oriented aerial gives an overwie of Mar del Plata with the old course next to the Sheraton Hotel and the new course where it says MDPGC (Mar del Plata Golf Club).

Christoph

« **Reply #15 on:** July 07, 2009, 06:25:13 AM »

It doesn't appear the course has changed all that much over the years, it looks very much like the old pictures. It looks like a very interesting layout.

« **Reply #16 on:** July 07, 2009, 10:08:09 PM »

Tom and to ALL
I consulted at the club for some ten years. Great club and great people, we restored a lot of bunkers with one of it memebers overseeing the consrtruction process that was about 85 years old at the time. He since passed away and was cremated and his ashes spread on the course. The eighteen holes is on 27 ha and has six holes par three for kids included. Greens are traditionally super fast and its just a work of art. I saw the ladies captain last week and there debating putting wall to wall irrigation again which I always strong advised not to. The defense of the short course, is the wind, ultra lighting greens and hard unpredictable fairways. The greens are a large percentage native paspalm. Its a course, all on this site would appreciate, Ben and Ran loved it but we didn´t have time to play. For anyone interested, the club published a 186 page hard back book back in the year 2000 for which they considered there 100 year anniversary and is dedicated 100% to the history of the club. It is well done and the author they contracted is a friend of mine that has done some professional photography work me. The only bummer is it not available in English, everything is in Spanish but if anybody wants the book, I can get you info how and any specific questions I would be glad to look up. Cheers

« **Reply #17 on:** July 07, 2009, 10:16:58 PM »

Quote from: Bill_McBride on July 06, 2009, 10:55:04 PM

Wayne, you'd put Cabrera and Romero up against Poulter, Donald, Rose, and all the other good Brit players? Or just two on two??

I would take Cabrera and Romero agains any English twosome. And looking at number of majors won Cabrera has two and I believe the last Englishman to win a major is Sir Nick Faldo.

« **Reply #18 on:** July 08, 2009, 09:55:24 AM »

Hello,

Great topic. I am sure that Randy can give greater insight to the technical attributes of the course, but I have a lot of knowledge about the course. Recently, I was priviledged to purchase from the club the only surviving copy of Alister Mackenzie's blue print for the club, with it all the rights to use them. I first played the club in 92, and was blown away by the complexy of this little design. Mar del Plata Golf Club was designed by Juan Dentone, the father of national born Argentine Golf Professionals. Mungo Park lived in the Argentine for around 4 years to my recollection and returned back to Scotland in the Teens. He was the first first rate professional to come to Argentina and as my memory serves me correctly he won two Argentine Opens. I am not sure how much he had to do with the course, but Juan Dentone is credited with the first 9 hole routing in 1892. The course was in the process of being expanded to the present layout in 1928 to 30, when Alister arrived to Argentina. Alister was asked to give insight to Dentones work, and he scrapped Dentones work and created a complete redesign of the course. The club decided to not go with Alister suggustions as reported in the Ledger of the club. Luther Koontz was responsible for helping develop the irrigation system and improve turf conditions.
The club was the wintering grounds for the Prince of Wales, Henry Cotton, Aubrey and Percy Boomer to name a few. MPGC was regarded as the most prestigeous club in Argentina, a distinction still held to this day. The economic change in Argentina has damped the clubs activity, and the 80's and 90's change in the economy prompted vacationers from Argentina to go to the USA and overseas for their vacations.
Juan Dentone was also the architect to the Anchorena estate course El Boqueron, where the layout was not executed as designed by Alister Mackenzie, utilizing only the front 9 routing and had very basic greens. My guess is that Dentone, as a proud Argentine was a bit miffed by Alister's scrapping of his work and played a large role the clubs decision to not change. Truthfully, the existing routing is very good for the land allocated to the course. Apart from rough turf maintenance and bunkering that takes a beating from relentless wind changes it is a fantastic golf course. The Abierto Del Sur is one of the most prestigeous Argentine tournaments, won by many great players. The club house materials were shipped from England, and money was not spared in her construction. It is considered the St Andrews of South American golf. Now there is a harbor infront of the club, but in the good ole days Playa Grande beach was directly below the 10th and 11th holes. Members dominated the beach until the land was claimed by urban expansion in the 50's and 60's. The course is commonly referred to by Argentines as Playa Grande. The great old courses of the region are the Jockey, Punta Carrete, San Andres, and Mar Del Plata Golf Club in my opinion.
If you ever get to Argentina this is a must see town and course to play. The seafood is FOB and to die for.

David Edel

« **Reply #19 on:** July 08, 2009, 10:11:14 AM »

David
What year did Dentones design the course? Did he utilize the existing golf course?

« **Reply #20 on:** July 08, 2009, 11:51:22 AM »

Tom,

The original 9 hole routing began in 1892 and was a short 6 hole if I am not mistaken. I will have to check. As the club acquired more land they enlarged it to 9. There were at least one dirt road passing throught the layout. The club start to get larger and more formalized in the middle 20's and the club house was started in I believe 1922. The clubhouse took many years to fully complete and later the club acquired more land and was able to enlarge the course to 18 in the late 20's. Juan Dentone had by that time developed into the professional/architect for Argentina at that time. He received alot of input from the likes of Cotton and the Boomer's. Aubrey and Henry were involved with Miramar south of Mar Del Plata. Miramar is another cool classic. I will check the book Randy Thompson talked about to be more precise if your interested. This is one of my most favorite courses in the world and is a classic as it is unchanged and authentic to the evolution of golf design.

Best to all,

David

« **Reply #21 on:** July 08, 2009, 12:00:31 PM »

Quote from: David Edel on July 08, 2009, 09:55:24 AM

Hello,

Great topic. I am sure that Randy can give greater insight to the technical attributes of the course, but I have a lot of knowledge about the course. Recently, I was priviledged to purchase from the club the only surviving copy of Alister Mackenzie's blue print for the club, with it all the rights to use them. I first played the club in 92, and was blown away by the complexy of this little design. Mar del Plata Golf Club was designed by Juan Dentone, the father of national born Argentine Golf Professionals. Mungo Park lived in the Argentine for around 4 years to my recollection and returned back to Scotland in the Teens. He was the first first rate professional to come to Argentina and as my memory serves me correctly he won two Argentine Opens. I am not sure how much he had to do with the course, but Juan Dentone is credited with the first 9 hole routing in 1892. The course was in the process of being expanded to the present layout in 1928 to 30, when Alister arrived to Argentina. Alister was asked to give insight to Dentones work, and he scrapped Dentones work and created a complete redesign of the course. The club decided to not go with Alister suggustions as reported in the Ledger of the club. Luther Koontz was responsible for helping develop the irrigation system and improve turf conditions.
The club was the wintering grounds for the Prince of Wales, Henry Cotton, Aubrey and Percy Boomer to name a few. MPGC was regarded as the most prestigeous club in Argentina, a distinction still held to this day. The economic change in Argentina has damped the clubs activity, and the 80's and 90's change in the economy prompted vacationers from Argentina to go to the USA and overseas for their vacations.
Juan Dentone was also the architect to the Anchorena estate course El Boqueron, where the layout was not executed as designed by Alister Mackenzie, utilizing only the front 9 routing and had very basic greens. My guess is that Dentone, as a proud Argentine was a bit miffed by Alister's scrapping of his work and played a large role the clubs decision to not change. Truthfully, the existing routing is very good for the land allocated to the course. Apart from rough turf maintenance and bunkering that takes a beating from relentless wind changes it is a fantastic golf course. The Abierto Del Sur is one of the most prestigeous Argentine tournaments, won by many great players. The club house materials were shipped from England, and money was not spared in her construction. It is considered the St Andrews of South American golf. Now there is a harbor infront of the club, but in the good ole days Playa Grande beach was directly below the 10th and 11th holes. Members dominated the beach until the land was claimed by urban expansion in the 50's and 60's. The course is commonly referred to by Argentines as Playa Grande. The great old courses of the region are the Jockey, Punta Carrete, San Andres, and Mar Del Plata Golf Club in my opinion.
If you ever get to Argentina this is a must see town and course to play. The seafood is FOB and to die for.

David Edel

David, what is the story of the new course on the other side of town?

« **Reply #22 on:** July 08, 2009, 05:03:36 PM »

Bill,
the other course, the new course is nothing special at all,,,nothing..I repeat nothing in any way shape or form.
David,
I just happened to be looking at the book after lunch before my siesta and before reading your thread and here are some of my interpertations from the book...this will not turn into a Merion thread..because you need to two people to have a battle and life is too short for battles. Just wanting to help not argue..
The first six holes you mentioned before 1900 were abandonded..Where the club is now was designed in 1903 the first nine holes and inaugerated in 1904,,,
the second nine was done in 1915 and then they had to move a couple of holes in 1917 becasue of the addition of the road that is to the left of 10 and 11. When they did that they consummed 3 holes from the kids course and is why they have six now. In September 1930´s Makensize was invited to have a look and make recommendations. He did a plan which you have and I would love to see because in the plan he expanded the course some 400 yards..Love to know where because we got about 100 and would be interested if the other 300 slipped in through the years before my intervention or if it was a complete revamp. Anyways the board didn´t accept the plan because of financial reasons and probably some politicing from Don Juan,,but the book doesn´t say anything about the politicing. It does say that the good doctor also recomended some filling in of bunkers which they did do! Cheers!

« **Reply #23 on:** July 08, 2009, 05:51:20 PM »

Bill, Randy:
Are you referring to Club Mar del Plata Golf Los Acantilados? If so, I'm pretty sure I played it about 8 years ago, and agree with Randy that there was nothing noteworthy about it.

« **Reply #24 on:** July 08, 2009, 11:22:28 PM »

Randy
Do you know who designed the first nine in 1903 and the second nine in 1915?

News:

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Bill_McBride

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