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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2009, 07:26:57 AM »
Richard:

Are you kidding?  You really think Pine Valley should go out of its way to "roll out the welcome wagon" for top juniors and amateurs to come and play there?

(For one thing, they would have to be careful about tripping over violations of the Rules of Amateur Status ... )

It is up to players to make the effort, not the other way around.  I am sure if Tiger Woods had written to Pine Valley and asked to come and see it -- even when he was 16 -- he would have been welcomed.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2009, 11:14:02 AM »
The flip side is that Tiger has played Shinney (and a whole bunch of other special courses) under conditions no one on here ever will.

If you think playing one of these special courses in a recreational round or club tourney can compare, I respectfully submit you are kidding yourself.

George -

I think the members at Oakmont play that course on regular basis harder than the pros do when they play there.
Mr Hurricane

Peter Pallotta

Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2009, 11:35:55 AM »
What I found most interesting about TW's comments is how he uses Arnold Palmer, much in the way Jack N tends to do, as an example of what he's NOT -- i.e. Arnold as the (rare) golf professsional who plays golf and loves playing golf AS golf, as the GAME of golf, and not primarily or solely for its competitive aspect, the chance at COMPETITON that it affords.   There's nothing wrong with that -- the game can and does serve many and different functions for people, and if it's all about competing and winning for pros like Tiger and Jack, that's fine; but I'm guessing I'm not alone if finding AP's approach more understandable and appealing -- how the great man is still in love with a game that in the last decade has probably caused him more grief than joy. What's ironic, though, is that these two very differernt approaches seem to find a common expression when it comes to architecture, i.e. for AP, he wants to design courses that the average man can enjoy (because he himself enjoys the game in and of itself); for TW and JN, they too want to design courses that the average man can enjoy, but in their case I think it's because there is in their minds two DISTINCT kinds of golfers and golf courses -- on the one hand, those golfers who play for fun and enjoyment (and not competition) and the courses that allow for that, and on the other those golfers who want to test themselves in competition, and the courses that are best suited to provide that test.  Maybe that's one of the things that golf course architects who AREN'T professional golfers bring to the table, i.e. they understand in their bones that it doesn't have to be BINARY, that most average golfers don't want to be beat up badly by a golf course but at the same time want and enjoy the competitive aspect, testing themselves against the course and other players...and so design their courses accordingly.   

Peter
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 11:42:49 AM by Peter Pallotta »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2009, 11:43:00 AM »
I think the members at Oakmont play that course on regular basis harder than the pros do when they play there.

That's certainly the legend, I have no real way of verifying it's truth. I will say, I have a friend who worked on the grounds crew during the 94 Open and grew up in Oakmont and has played the course many times. He said that they had the crew stationed at each green with a walkie talkie, constantly reporting its condition, syringing as needed, and they immediately would commence watering when the last group came through. That doesn't sound normal maintenance practices to me. He also indicated he played the course a couple days after the Open and couldn't break 100, while his best round is in the high 70s. I do believe they run the greens faster from time to time, but I don't think they keep them uniformly as firm, bordering on dying.

I will add that I'd be very concerned about someone - anyone - who felt there was nothing to learn from Oakmont, that it's too hard for normal golfers. That statement alone would make me question whether or not that person was capable of learning from any golf experience.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2009, 12:15:38 PM »
Are you kidding?  You really think Pine Valley should go out of its way to "roll out the welcome wagon" for top juniors and amateurs to come and play there?

No, I am not kidding.

I think members at PV have a special duty to expose what truly great GCA is to up-and-coming juniors. Without exposing them early, it is going to be difficult have a truly long lasting effect on their psyche (I think Jack is a prime example).

And certainly you do not have to violate rules of amateur to do it. All you have to do is to host a small junior tournament. Not even every year, even if it is every 4 years, it would be enough to expose enough top young players to extraordinary GCA.

Don't you think golf as a whole would benefit greatly from that?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2009, 12:49:37 PM »
Richard:

I guess we must disagree on what is a right and what is a privilege.

I've always considered it a privilege to get to see and play courses like Pine Valley and Merion and the rest of the private U.S. clubs.  Pretty much all of those clubs were kind enough to grant me access to see their courses when I was 18-20 years old and sought to do so; all it took was a nice letter.  And most of them have been very welcoming when I want to pay a return visit, as long as I am respectful of their policies.

I guess it would be nice if every such club had a more open-door policy toward others, but I don't see how we should expect them to do so.  I think it's up to their members how often to open the door to outsiders.  Sadly, few of them host the sort of junior event you describe.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2009, 01:12:25 PM »
I am not saying that it is top juniors' right to be able to play the top courses. It is certainly a previlege.

What I am saying is that stewards of architectural gems have some duty to expose great GCA to young players who will likely to have significant impact on golf's future.

While I agree that top juniors can request access, but look at it from their point of view. They already have their schedule pack full with various tournaments on top of their school work. And they are young kids, I doubt that they even think much about golf course architecture or seek out great courses on their own.

Even you have to admit that your own case is a bit "special" compare to other kids of your age at the time.

Think how great it would be for top courses like ANGC, PV, Merion, and Oakmont to host a small invitational every year open only to top 20 or 30 juniors? You can rotate it around those courses so a course only have to host once every 4 or 5 years.

Pine Valley recently hosted Walker Cup, so there must be some support for hosting a prestigious amateur event.

Once a top junior becomes a top pro like Tiger is, they are not going to go out of their way to play non-tour top courses and now you have these guys who have not been exposed to an architectural case study like PV designing thousands of courses around the world. And that is a big loss for golf in general.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2009, 01:39:21 PM »
Once a top junior becomes a top pro like Tiger is, they are not going to go out of their way to play non-tour top courses and now you have these guys who have not been exposed to an architectural case study like PV designing thousands of courses around the world. And that is a big loss for golf in general.

Richard, how is it a 'big loss for golf' if future PGA Tour pros (who will embark on design careers) are not able to play some of the classic courses during their teenage years on the AJGA circuit? 

Also, Pine Valley hosted the Walker Cup in 1985, which I guess is recent by historical standards.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2009, 02:02:28 PM »
In terms of architectural knowledge, I don't find the fact that Eldrick the Golfing Alien hasn't seen Pine Valley too distressing, but I find the fact that Jack Nicklaus didn't bother to go look at Sand Hills before building Dismal River negligent beyond words.

Dave:

I would have to say that this seems more than a bit overstated.  Although it may have provided JN some good information about how to handle the local problems of this type of site, I don't think it necessary that he had to see Sand Hills.  If you were going to write a novel about a seafaring whale hunter, would it be negligent to have failed to read Moby Dick?  In fact, some would argue that seeing SH may have affected the original and unique thinking that went into Dismal River...that subconsciously his creativity may have been skewed towards or away from what was present at SH.  I am not sure either way ...but it hardly seems that simply not seeing SH is negligent.  Just my opinion and I am sure you will disagree.

Bart

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2009, 08:20:31 PM »
Richard Choi,

Would you say that the time Tom Doak spent at St Andrews and other UK venues didn't enhance his education, understanding and appreciation for architecture ?

How would visits to Seminole and Pine Valley detract from an architect's intellectual data base ?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2009, 08:34:09 PM »
Richard:

Maybe we should reserve architecture for people who actually try to study it, instead of setting up 17-year-old kids with no interest in the subject to be future architects.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2009, 09:15:01 PM »
I don't think that a designer's ability to create anything of significance....whether that person is a regular sort, or a golf pro, or the son of a famous designer...is contingent on how many of the worlds great courses he has played. Too many exceptions.

Not enough dots to connect.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 08:35:47 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2009, 09:17:10 PM »
In terms of architectural knowledge, I don't find the fact that Eldrick the Golfing Alien hasn't seen Pine Valley too distressing, but I find the fact that Jack Nicklaus didn't bother to go look at Sand Hills before building Dismal River negligent beyond words.

My guess is that he didn't want to go see it b/c he knew it was better than anything he could build.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jim Nugent

Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2009, 01:51:19 AM »
In terms of architectural knowledge, I don't find the fact that Eldrick the Golfing Alien hasn't seen Pine Valley too distressing, but I find the fact that Jack Nicklaus didn't bother to go look at Sand Hills before building Dismal River negligent beyond words.

My guess is that he didn't want to go see it b/c he knew it was better than anything he could build.

My sense is the opposite, that Jack believes he is as far above other architects as he was other golfers. 

When Jack was a teenager, 14 years old or so, Sam Snead put on an exhibition at the driving range at Jack's country club.  As I recall the story, Jack did not go to the exhibition.  When asked why, he said something like, "I can't learn anything from him."

That, I believe, is Jack's attitude about other designers' golf courses. 

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2009, 03:36:30 AM »
Maybe we should reserve architecture for people who actually try to study it, instead of setting up 17-year-old kids with no interest in the subject to be future architects.

Well, then like it or not, over the next 30 to 40 years, we are about to be innundated (I am guessing over 300 before it is all said and done) with golf courses designed by someone who never visited nor have any desire to play Pine Valley and who does not actually "try to study it".
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 03:41:17 AM by Richard Choi »

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2009, 04:14:55 AM »
So what of all the courses designed before Pine Valley was built? How ever did the designers manage?

Is it really as big a deal as is being made out?

John Nixon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2009, 09:56:49 AM »


  Didn't Jack play Pine Valley on his honeymoon while his wife waited uotside the gate?

  Anthony



Yes...I fear the current generation of athletes, not just golfers, is rather self absorbed. 

Jack leaves his wife outside the fence on their honeymoon to play golf, and you call the current generation "self-absorbed"?

 ;)

Anthony Gray

Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2009, 02:23:47 PM »
I don't think that a designer's ability to create anything of significance....whether that person is a regular sort, or a golf pro, or the son of a famous designer...is contingent on how many of the worlds great courses he has played. Too many exceptions.

Not enough dots to connect.

  Does enybody know of any architects that have not seen or played The Old Course?

  Anthony


David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2009, 03:09:49 PM »
Other than his success in competitive golf is there anything that Tiger Woods has ever said, written or done that would make someone think he would be a great golf course architect or would even aspire to be?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Greg Clark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2009, 04:30:25 PM »
Tiger last week at Congressional:

"I don't play golf on my vacations. I get away from it. I'd never, ever have a golfing vacation, because it's not interesting for me to go out there and do that. When I'm at home... I'll go out there and I'll play, but it's preparing for the next event. I rarely ever go and play just to play."

Very much like Jack in his thinking. This comment doesn't address the interest in seeing courses for architecural knowledge, but again I'll bet he is Jack like in his thinking on that matter as well.

Paul Perrella

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2009, 04:48:53 PM »
Chip,

    Tiger played a bit behind me at NGLA during the Shinny Open and when I got done I went and watched him for a couple of holes. When he finished I was told he was 5 under through 13 when it started to rain fairly hard and they stopped playing.


Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2009, 05:30:50 PM »
Will Tiger's golf design efforts help or hurt his ability to fulfill Earl Woods' prediction that "Tiger will do more than any other man in history to change the course of humanity"?

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2009, 08:25:24 PM »
Will Tiger's golf design efforts help or hurt his ability to fulfill Earl Woods' prediction that "Tiger will do more than any other man in history to change the course of humanity"?

Personally, I wouldn't saddle Tiger with his Dad's prediction (too much personal experience on that one).  Regarding things golf, I am in no position to question any things Tiger does.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2009, 08:30:39 PM »


Dave:

I would have to say that this seems more than a bit overstated.  Although it may have provided JN some good information about how to handle the local problems of this type of site, I don't think it necessary that he had to see Sand Hills.  If you were going to write a novel about a seafaring whale hunter, would it be negligent to have failed to read Moby Dick?  In fact, some would argue that seeing SH may have affected the original and unique thinking that went into Dismal River...that subconsciously his creativity may have been skewed towards or away from what was present at SH.  I am not sure either way ...but it hardly seems that simply not seeing SH is negligent.  Just my opinion and I am sure you will disagree.

Bart

Bart:  Moby Dick was fiction. Sand Hills is fact. Moreover, Sand Hills is the competition. In any business endevour, it's negligent per se not to know and understand your competition's strengths and weaknesses to the extent possible. Even if he didn't want Sand Hills to influence his original design (an innane, but at least plausible, thought process), he should still have seen Sand Hills after he created the origin design to see if the uninfluenced original design was lacking vis-a-vis the competition.

Would you have more respect for him if he not only visited Sand Hills but also purchased a belt?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Famous Designer won't go out of his way to play PV, Seminole
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2009, 10:08:52 PM »
I don't think that a designer's ability to create anything of significance....whether that person is a regular sort, or a golf pro, or the son of a famous designer...is contingent on how many of the worlds great courses he has played. Too many exceptions.

Not enough dots to connect.

  Does enybody know of any architects that have not seen or played The Old Course?

  Anthony



Yes....I know quite a few that are living.....and for posterity can include a multitude of Golden Agers.

What does that prove in your opinion?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 10:14:17 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

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