The sanctity of teeing grounds

[Niall C]

Michael,

Your comment was about a private club. At private members clubs, yellow tees are not visitor tees, they are members tees like every other tee on the course. When you play as a visitor you are a member for the day and thereby subject to the same playing rules as the members. As Adrian pointed out, medal/championship tees have traditionally been protected for agronomy reasons, and all members have to obey the same rules about not playing those tees except where allowed in comps etc. Yes you have paid a visitor fee, but in reality that is only a modest amount for the privillege of being admitted as a member for the day, and I suggest that you think of it in those terms rather than viewing it merely as a pay and play facility where you can do as you like. Two other points I would like to make about your post, firstly clubs are now encouraged to use there back tees more often as the present thinking from (some) agronomists is that without use the tees go "soft". I suggest that in future a polite enquiry to the club prior to booking should let you know where yo stand. Secondly, I know of no private members clubs that make anything like 30% of their income from visitors fees. Visitor fees are always welcome, especially in these difficult economic times, but the bulk of club income still comes from club subscriptions.

Scott

Sorry to hear you didn't enjoy your Carnoustie experience. Carnoustie like St Andrews is a public pay and play facility which caters for huge numbers of golfers. I'm sure they could do some things better as Sean suggests above, however I think it is completely unreasonable to expect the starter to buck the rules just because a professional golfer shows up on the tee, whether or not you think the rule is a good one or not. I note from your post that CP enquired about playing from the championship tee when he booked in and therefore presumably hadn't phoned ahead previously. I have to say that you are being very unfair on the starter and the organisation.

BTW, did Craig pay for his round or did he flash PGA card ?

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Scott - I can't agree with your rationale at all. Craig Parry or not, the competition in 6 weeks time should be respected.
Equally I fully understand it is a big problem these days with the distances that good players hit the ball and the not so good do and yes a 7 iron from the tee is less fun.

[Anthony Gray]

  This is another reason why I like Cruden Bay. You are met by a starter in a tie and members jacket who makes suggestios on tees according to your handicap, but it is your choice to play how you would like.

   Anthony

[James Boon]

I think that visitors should thank their lucky stars they get to play these world class courses for what is often a reasonable green fee compared to what folks have to go through and pay in the US.  In any case, it is very rare that visitors have any business playing medal tees (let alone championship tees) - certainly at the championship courses or even the second tier championship courses.  I guarantee you that if the back tees on the tourista trail were opened up to all, play would be slowed down.  I know I don't want guys stepping back at Burnham - much of the time even in comps.  If I were in charge of a club like this I may make an exception for players who asked permission in advance, have a proven handicap of scratch, are willing to play as a 2 ball and not during a time when members could remotely be inconvenienced just in case the visitors have vanity caps (all together too common).  This may sound harsh, but if folks are honest with themselves, these rules really do them a favour.    

Ciao

Once again, I agree with the wisdom that is Mr Arble! As I've said before, I would be happy to play PV, NGLA or CP off whatever tees they wanted me to play off, just for the privelage of being able to play such courses. But having said that, I feel that several courses in this country are a little bit over possesive of their back tees? Especially if they wont even let Craig Parry play off the back tees with his brother, who probably was no hacker, competition in 6 weeks or not.

From my own experiences, I played Royal Liverpool a couple of months after the Open back in 2007, and we had to play from the yellow tees, which was fair enough as it was a large field with a wide variety of handicaps. But it felt like I was playing a completly different course, with several of the monster par 4s at the Open being more like drive and pitch holes. I was dissapointed, but nevertheless it was great to be able to experience the course so soon after the Open. The choice of tee on that day was a correct one because of the mix of abilities.

However, last year I played a hotel resort course in this country, that wasn't long to start with, where even though our group was all pros' or single figure handicaps we had to play off a forward set of tees that were often near, or even in front of the ladies tees. And yet this year I turned up at Notts and played off the very back tees at over 7,200 yards. Their thinking was that as long as we were decent golfers and didn't hold play up, then why not? So at least some courses use common sense. An interesting point for me came out of playing the back tees at Notts. I'm not a big hitter so many of the hazards off the tee were out of range, so I actually scored pretty well. If I'd been on the next set of tess forward, I'd probably have been in a few fairway bunkers and thrashing it about like a real hacker  so back tees doesn't always equate to the tougher test?

Cheers,

James

[Scott Macpherson]

This topic is about the sanctity of teeing grounds. Each course needs to balance the size of their teeing grounds with the demand for use from each tee. If you only have 15,000 rounds per year and 800m2 of teeing grounds on each hole, golfers can play from anywhere and there not be a problem – even if they take divots the size of dinner plates.

The example of gave of Mr Parry was not a lone example, as others in this thread have commented. May aim was not to be 'very unfair', in fact it was to be quite fair. That was the situation Mr Carlton. (And for the record, I can't recall if he paid, but I know that his brother and I did). Do you work for the Carnoustie Links?

Adrian, Carry Parry was very respectful of the course and any competition. The irony was that it was a Junior Boys Comp and they were not even using the back tees. And even if they were, in the summer, in a 6 week period, I think I could strip all those tees of grass and get them into almost perfect condition.

So back to the subject, IMO, many courses overly protect their tees. Let golfers go and play the course that gives them the most pleasure. That that means certain tees on certain holes need to be extended, go ahead and make them bigger. If people have fun, they will come back, and the game will grow. Simple.

[Buck Wolter]

Seems like one of those unitended consequence situations -- by forcing better players to shorter tees they are much more likely to take large divots with irons rather than using a driver and doing no damage. Maybe it makes sense on par 3's but I fail to see the justification on par4-5's. Having Craig Parry play up is just plain silly. They can obviously do what they like but I hope they let you know when you set up your tee time -- Makes a trip to Oregon all the more compelling to me.

[Scott Warren]

Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit nuts that people can get onto courses that host The Open, walking on as a member of the public, at a decent green fee, in the prime time of year, then turn around and complain that they had to follow some rules?

[Buck Wolter]

Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit nuts that people can get onto courses that host The Open, walking on as a member of the public, at a decent green fee, in the prime time of year, then turn around and complain that they had to follow some rules?

Don't count me as complaining Scott though it does seem more sanctimonious than holy.

[Chris Kane]

Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit nuts that people can get onto courses that host The Open, walking on as a member of the public, at a decent green fee, in the prime time of year, then turn around and complain that they had to follow some rules?

No Scott, you're not the only one.  These clubs open their gates to anyone with a handicap, unlike comparable American clubs which lock their gates.  I laugh at the arrogance of those who enjoy access to world-class courses for only a green fee, then complain about long-standing policies, whether they're reasonable policies or not.

[James Boon]

Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit nuts that people can get onto courses that host The Open, walking on as a member of the public, at a decent green fee, in the prime time of year, then turn around and complain that they had to follow some rules?

Nope!

I suppose there is no harm if you are a decent player in asking if you can play from some further back tees (not always the very back) but if they say no, then I'm more than happy to repsect that just for the experience of playing the course. Afterall, one of the main joys on these courses are the quality of the greens and their surrounds, their natural setting, the sense of history etc so what tee you play from is only a small part of the experience?

Cheers,

James

[Melvyn Morrow]

What is that old saying, something like “When in Rome do as the Romans do”.   An alternative being the more common sense approach, ‘There may be a cost to enjoying certain privileges’. No one is stopping you playing any of our courses, yet you can for a little consideration (money and rules).

In addition, if you live in St Andrews you get a massive discount on playing all St Andrews public courses (Seven if we have to include the Castle). Not certain what the current price is but a few years ago, it was £135.00. So, play 135 time in a year on seven courses and its will have cost a £1, yet play 3 time a week and boy are you in the money. As for outsiders/visitors, the simple solution is if you love St Andrews and Scottish golf, move to St Andrews.

Sean
I have found the Links Trust and the Trustees to be very fair and honourable to date. As for the cost, well looking as what we paid for The Castle Course and what we got for our money, I might think you have a point. However, I still believe the Links Trust to be head and shoulders above The R&A when it comes to all matters on golf. One builds courses the other is trying to build an Empire for itself whilst seeming doing little to protect the Game for Golf. 

A question to you Sean – is the Links Trust really responsible to G Brown at Westminster or as a Scottish City and Links is the Links Trust actually responsible to Alex Salmond and The Scottish Parliament?

Melvyn

[Matthew Mollica]

I think that visitors should thank their lucky stars they get to play these world class courses for what is often a reasonable green fee compared to what folks have to go through and pay in the US.  In any case, it is very rare that visitors have any business playing medal tees (let alone championship tees) - certainly at the championship courses or even the second tier championship courses.  I guarantee you that if the back tees on the tourista trail were opened up to all, play would be slowed down.  I know I don't want guys stepping back at Burnham - much of the time even in comps.  If I were in charge of a club like this I may make an exception for players who asked permission in advance, have a proven handicap of scratch, are willing to play as a 2 ball and not during a time when members could remotely be inconvenienced just in case the visitors have vanity caps (all together too common).  This may sound harsh, but if folks are honest with themselves, these rules really do them a favour.   

Am I the only one who thinks it's a bit nuts that people can get onto courses that host The Open, walking on as a member of the public, at a decent green fee, in the prime time of year, then turn around and complain that they had to follow some rules?

No Scott, you're not the only one.  These clubs open their gates to anyone with a handicap, unlike comparable American clubs which lock their gates.  I laugh at the arrogance of those who enjoy access to world-class courses for only a green fee, then complain about long-standing policies, whether they're reasonable policies or not.

I can't help but agree with the sentiments in the posts above, despite the minor disappointment encountered in playing a course in a way other than one hoped for. It is a bit rich to enjoy the opportunity to play, and then question the manner in which play is allowed. Especially given the accessibility of golf in the Kingdom. GB&I afford access to any course worth seeing. If only the rest of the golfing nations did likewise...

MM

[Ross Tuddenham]

I don’t get the logic of tee of the day as a way to preserve playing conditions.  Surely it just means almost all the play happens on one tee, which will inevitably end up a total mess.  If you have four sets of tees then it must be more sensible to spread the play over all of them.  Not that many people would go for the back tees anyway.

I also disagree about the open rota course and other high end courses providing any sort of value for money.  I know many great golfing enthusiasts who would dream of playing the likes of the old course, but at about £200 minimum as a day out would never be in a position to justify such an expense.  When you consider that even after that outlay you may have your day compromised by playing pitch and putt tee’s it is a total joke.

[Sean_A]

What is that old saying, something like “When in Rome do as the Romans do”.   An alternative being the more common sense approach, ‘There may be a cost to enjoying certain privileges’. No one is stopping you playing any of our courses, yet you can for a little consideration (money and rules).

In addition, if you live in St Andrews you get a massive discount on playing all St Andrews public courses (Seven if we have to include the Castle). Not certain what the current price is but a few years ago, it was £135.00. So, play 135 time in a year on seven courses and its will have cost a £1, yet play 3 time a week and boy are you in the money. As for outsiders/visitors, the simple solution is if you love St Andrews and Scottish golf, move to St Andrews.

Sean
I have found the Links Trust and the Trustees to be very fair and honourable to date. As for the cost, well looking as what we paid for The Castle Course and what we got for our money, I might think you have a point. However, I still believe the Links Trust to be head and shoulders above The R&A when it comes to all matters on golf. One builds courses the other is trying to build an Empire for itself whilst seeming doing little to protect the Game for Golf. 

A question to you Sean – is the Links Trust really responsible to G Brown at Westminster or as a Scottish City and Links is the Links Trust actually responsible to Alex Salmond and The Scottish Parliament?

Melvyn

Melvyn

We are entitled our opinions and mine of the Links Trust and how they operate or of Gordon Brown's administration is not likely to change soon.  How you interpreted the Links Trust being responsible for anything other than courses in St Andrews is a question only you can answer.  I don't believe I hinted, intimated or openly stated that this was the case. 

Ross

When you compare the prices of the top privates in the UK (Open rota or not) to those of the US privates, I think most will agree that they are relatively good value especially when you consider a friendly phone call gets you on.  I personally don't think many are good value relative to very good second/third tier clubs, but most folks traveling over here aren't very interested in heading off the tourista trail.  I don't know where you got the £200 minimum number, but I think that is over estimated.  TOC costs £135 a round.  I personally think this is a huge ripoff.  Not because it is out of whack with big name courses - it isn't - in fact I think its cheap.  My beef is that it should be far cheaper (if not cheaper - then it could and should be a better experience) and the reason it isn't is down to some huge Disney-like machine being created in St Andrews which in fact adds no value to the golf. 

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

The average summer green fee at an Open rota course is £143 (at recent exchange rates, about US$220-230).

Pebble is what, $450?
Kiawah is $375?
Sawgrass is upwards of $300?

And as Sean said, drop back to the North Berwicks, Addingtons and St Enodocs and you're getting change from £80!

Here's a question: I want to play the last 9 courses to host a US Open. What's the damage to my wallet?

[Jason Topp]

Not to be smarmy, but . . . .  How torn up can tees get on holes where when someone is hitting driver?  Particularly back tees?

[Scott Warren]

IMO, it is also a case of fairways getting worn out at the same driving zone.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The main point that you need to realise is that in the UK, most members courses operate from the tees of the day and probably 80-90% of the play is suited to playing from these. As James pointed out, if you wanna play further back, ask. If it is a no it will be because either it's too busy that day or the tees are being protected. Tee markers get moved pretty much daily or on say a policy of every 150 rounds, but you will get quite a bit of wear even on par 4 tees, lots of UK clubs dont even have irrigation on tees and remember we have times of the year with zero or little growth. At my club we allow anyone to play anywhere except at the short holes but we have big tees.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Sean Arble

Hi, I got £200 by including travel costs and dinner etc.  Just meant that once you decided to go and play there that would have to be factored in.  That is from within Scotland anyway, would be more from further afield.

But I do agree that it is cheap in comparison to other open rota courses and compared to most high end US courses.  It is still however a round of golf and there is no such thing as cheap when it comes to golf.

When you consider this it is no surprise that due to stories like we have heard about the tees used it is no surprise when you here that many are disappointed with the Old course experience.  For the money I assume people expect to be treated like royalty for the day.  This in itself is a bit of a joke.

[Scott Warren]

Ross,

How many US top 20 courses/US Open courses can I walk onto without a member introduction by flashing my UK handicap certificate?
Of those I can play, how many will cost me less than US$220 in summer?

[Melvyn Morrow]

I attach some current Green Fees for a selection of Courses in Fife plus a map to find location for those interested. I hope it copies correctly otherwise might be fun reading. Anyway it will give you a good idea of current Green Fees in Fife

St Andrews & Fife Courses 2009   Green Fees

High Season, to 18 October 2009
Course                            Adult         Under 16
TOC                      £135.00         £130.00
New                      £  65.00         £  32.00
Jubilee         £  65.00         £  32.00
Eden                      £  40.00         £  20.00
Strathtyrum      £  25.00         £  12.00
Balgrove         £  12.00         £    4.00
The Castle         £117.50         £  59.00   
            
Shoulder Season, to 19 - 31 October 2009
Course                            Adult         Under 16
TOC         £  91.00         £  91.00
New         £  46.00         £  23.00
Jubilee         £  46.00         £  23.00
Eden         £  28.00         £  14.00
Strathtyrum      £  18.00         £    9.00
Balgrove         £    8.00         £    3.00
The Castle         £  82.00         £  41.00   

Low Season, November 2009 – February 2010
All Courses Fairway mats 2 November – 29 January 2010
Course                            Adult         Under 16
TOC         £  64.00         £  64.00
New         £  32.00         £  16.00
Jubilee         £  32.00         £  16.00
Eden                      £  20.00         £  10.00
Strathtyrum                   £  12.00         £    6.00
Balgrove         £    8.00         £    3.00
The Castle           Closed         Closed   

[b]Aberdour GC    Summer Rates (March 2009 - October 2009)[/b]
Day             Round                       Day Ticket           
Monday to                     
Thursday            £ 25.00         £  35.00
Friday            £ 30.00         £  40.00
Saturday            £ 35.00         £  N/A
Sunday            £ 35.00         £  45.00

Anstruther GC  January - March & November – December
18 holes for the price of 9 - £15 Seniors & £5 Juniors
April – October
Monday to
Saturday            £ 25.00 for 18 Holes     £ 15.00 for 9 Holes
(Juniors            £ 10.00 for 18 Holes     £   5.00 for 9 Holes
 

Burnisland GC Golf Rates from 1st April 2009
Day             Round                      Day Ticket           
Monday to
Friday             £ 25.00         £  35.00
Saturday/Sunday          £ 35.00         £  42.00
Members Guests                £ 10.00           

(Buggy £20 per  Round £30 per day)
(Pull Trolley £3 per  Round £5 per day)
(Power Trolley £5 per  Round £7 per day)

Crail – Balcomie  1st April 2009 to 31st October 2009

Weekday Round at Balcomie or Craighead        £ 51.00
All Day                £ 70.00

Golf Club House – Elie 2008/9 Green Fees
Day          High Season                        Low Season   
Weekday Round - Adult      £ 65.00                    £ 25.00   
Weekday Round – Junior     £ 32.50       £ 12.50
Weekday Day - Adult            £ 85.00       £  N/A
Weekday Day – Junior          £ 50.00       £  N/A
Weekend Round - Adult      £ 95.00       £  N/A
Weekly Ticket          £215.00        £  N/A

Leven GC
Monday to Friday          Non-member Round      £ 45.00
                                 Non-member Day Ticket   £ 55.00
       Boy/Girl Round (Under 18)   £ 10.00
Saturday/Sunday          Non-member Round      £ 50.00
       Non-member Day Ticket   £ 60.00
       Boy/Girl Round (Under 18)   £ 10.00
Special Tickets          3 day ticket      £110.00
(Details on application)        7 day ticket      £200.00
                                     Family Ticket (2 Adults     
                                         and 2 Juniors)      £110.00

Lundin GC Green Fees for 2009 (from 30th March)
Weekday (Round)      £  52.00
Weekday (Day)      £  75.00
Weekday (3 Days)      £135.00
Saturday (Round)      £  60.00
Sunday (Round)      £  60.00
Junior Round      £  15.00

Scotscraig GC Standard Green Fees 2009
Options         Price per Round      Price per Day
Midweek         £ 55.00         £ 75.00
Weekend         £ 70.00 (Morning)      £100.00
         £ 60.00 (Afternoon)

[Ross Tuddenham]

I am not denying that it is great that the great courses in the UK are very accessible but I was just pointing out that in relation to the tee debate for £135 you would expect to fully sample what the course has to offer.  I can then see how people would be disappointed with the experience and become less likely to return.

I on the other hand would happily sell my granny to play the Old Course from the boys tees.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Given the prices posted by Melvyn it is quite clear that the Scots are using the "Soak the foreigner" strategy when an annual pass for a local is the same price as one round for a visitor.  Other courses in Scotland might not be as bad as St Andrews, but I would venture that an annual pass for a Carnoustie resident is probably around the rate that a foursome of visitors would pay.

On the other hand, here in North America we greatly restrict visitors at private clubs but the visitors fees are probably pretty close to what a member pays on a per round basis.  Here in Toronto most top-flight clubs charge visitors about $125-$150 which is about 1/40 of annual members' dues which are typically in the $5-6k category and 40 rounds is probably even a bit more than the average member plays given our 6-7 month season.

But even at twice the price teeing of for the first time at TOC is a fantastic experience and well worth the price!

[Matt Day]

Not to be smarmy, but . . . .  How torn up can tees get on holes where when someone is hitting driver?  Particularly back tees?

Its not the divots on those holes, its the wear of hundreds of feet standing in the same area. On small tees it can be an issue

[Melvyn Morrow]

Do you not think it is a question of the golfer believing he is getting value for his money?

I feel that TOC is well worth the investment, for the simple reason it is The premium course as well as being full of history.

I cannot see how the Link Trust can justify the price it charges for the near virgin Castle Course. It’s just too new to justify its price tag. I feel that it should have been at least half its current price, because it’s new and modifications are being discussed. The course is not really ready, is certainly not a premium course, nor has it yet been able to earn any battle colours or honours.

The Green Fees are in real terms irrelevant. What actually matters is that the golfers has enjoyed themselves and believe they have had value for their money.

Melvyn