[Mike Hendren]

When and where? if at all.

Bogey

[Joe Hancock]

Mike,

I'd be interested to know what recent parkland courses you consider great. Surely there has been some built in the past 5 years?

Joe

[Tom_Doak]

There are not many modern golf course sites which could be fairly described as "parkland" to start with ... mostly remodels, such as Common Ground or the Cal Club. 

Few new sites have the number of mature trees required to earn the "parkland" designation.  Merion and Oak Hill and Oakland Hills were more open farmland than "parkland" at the start.  They were willing to plant trees and wait 25-30 years for the landscaping to take effect.  Most new courses aren't, and even if they were, it would take more time than this thread wants to give them.

[Garland Bayley]

Shouldn't Tom's statement be revised to most new courses by what one might consider the best current GCAs are not parkland. Certainly there  must be lots of parkland courses being developed. In the Portland area, some that come to mind that have been built in the last 15 years or so are Ghost Creek, Chehalem Glen, The OGA members course, etc.

[Tom_Doak]

Garland:

Isn't Pumpkin Ridge older than that?

I wasn't just speaking for my own projects, I haven't seen others work on parkland sites much, either.  Don't know the others in Oregon you mentioned, but outside the northwest, can you think of many?

[Some people might call Tumble Creek parkland, but I wouldn't, even though I'm not sure what other label fits better.]

[Bill_McBride]

You'd have to say the Kingsley Club is a parkland course.  It's pretty good.   

The Dormie Club might be the next great one when it's completed.  I have heard nothing but good things about it.

[Mike Hendren]

Tom rightly points out that "parkland" is a relatively nebulous term.  In my mind it refers to a heavily tree'd (but not forested) inland site with flat to gently rolling topography that is not dominated by any particularly land form or naive vegetation.   I suspect my definition is too broad.

In response to Joe's question, I cheated and looked through Golfweek's Top 100 Modern List and couldn't fine anything in the past five years - maybe Forest Creek in Pinehurst.  I would consider The Honors parkland, perhaps Kinloch though I haven't seen it.  

I ask the question becuase I think that "type" of course is a uniquely American genre that is dying a quick death as a result of the pursuit (and rightly so) of spectacular sites.  

Bogey

[RJ_Daley]

To what degree of established trees throughout the course and rolling terrain, do you consider it parkland?  We have had many courses in the last 10 years that are partially on mature treed parkland, and partially through open meadows.  Off the top of my head, those I've been to in recent years that are to a large degree parkland, with established stands of trees incorporated along hole corridors and even within playing strategy, such as Angels Crossing, and Long Shadow, or Cuscowilla.  And, I"m sure my off the top thoughts doesn't even scratch the surface of how many modern courses are partially in parkland settings.  Or, are you further refining the definition and not including courses that are more your idea of 'woodland' courses?  

[RJ_Daley]

MIke, you type faster than I.       But, what do you consider Long Shadow or Cusco?  Woodland, parkland, or parade of homes?  Those two are a mix, IMHO.  But, parkland does suit them most because of the mature trees, rolling terrain, even lakes or created ones.  The fact that there are residential areas along sides doesn't take them out of the running to be classified parkland in my view, because most lovely urban parks have residential or even commerical all around them. 

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

Isn't Pumpkin Ridge older than that?

I wasn't just speaking for my own projects, I haven't seen others work on parkland sites much, either.  Don't know the others in Oregon you mentioned, but outside the northwest, can you think of many?

[Some people might call Tumble Creek parkland, but I wouldn't, even though I'm not sure what other label fits better.]

Time flies as you get older, It was built 16-17 years ago.

What about Arnie's and Jake's courses near Tumble Creek? Are they parkland?

[Richard Choi]

Arnie's course, Suncadia Prospector course, is a typical Arnie course with template holes. No excitement to speak of other than the breathtaking view you get when you get to the tee at the 10th hole. They say that the Jake's course, Rope Rider, will open in 2010, but I am not sure if that is going to happen or not.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

How about Bobby Weed's Glen Mills course in suburban Philadelphia?

[Michael Dugger]

Arnie's course, Suncadia Prospector course, is a typical Arnie course with template holes. No excitement to speak of other than the breathtaking view you get when you get to the tee at the 10th hole. They say that the Jake's course, Rope Rider, will open in 2010, but I am not sure if that is going to happen or not.

That sheds little light on the question at hand, Richard.

[Richard Choi]

Sorry, I wouldn't call it parkland as it goes through some severe elevation changes due to the property where it resides. I would say it is more mountain course than parkland.

[Norbert P]

When and where? if at all.

Bogey

Gimme $3,000,000 and I'll show you.

We have to believe that the greatest is yet to come.

Onward Rocinante' !

[Garland Bayley]

The restored Augusta National Golf Club after the new  wedge grooves return sanity to The Masters.
 

[Bruce Katona]

Slag: How many houses can Steve Lapper and I fit around the course and maybe we can talk ?
BK

[Norbert P]

Just one.  I don't need no stinking neighbors!

[Carl Nichols]

Interesting definitional question.  Is Bandon Trails a parkland course?  One could argue that it's "a heavily tree'd (but not forested) inland site with flat to gently rolling topography that is not dominated by any particularly land form or naive vegetation."  What about Rock Creek Cattle? 

[Tim Pitner]

Interesting definitional question.  Is Bandon Trails a parkland course?  One could argue that it's "a heavily tree'd (but not forested) inland site with flat to gently rolling topography that is not dominated by any particularly land form or naive vegetation."  What about Rock Creek Cattle? 

Parts of Bandon Trails were carved out of a forest so it's difficult for me to say that it's not "forested."  Bandon Trails seems more like a Pinehurst or even some UK heathland courses where the trees are there, but don't come into play too much. 

[Carl Nichols]

Interesting definitional question.  Is Bandon Trails a parkland course?  One could argue that it's "a heavily tree'd (but not forested) inland site with flat to gently rolling topography that is not dominated by any particularly land form or naive vegetation."  What about Rock Creek Cattle? 

Parts of Bandon Trails were carved out of a forest so it's difficult for me to say that it's not "forested."  Bandon Trails seems more like a Pinehurst or even some UK heathland courses where the trees are there, but don't come into play too much. 

Tim: 
Are you reading Michael's definition as excluding courses that were cut out of forests?  If so, and you might very well be right, what would you call a course that was cut out of a forest, if it's otherwise on a gently rolling inland site? 

[Tim Pitner]

Carl,

I agree there are definitional difficulties here.  For some reason, when I think of "parkland" courses, I tend to think of deciduous rather than coniferous trees.  Maybe that goes back to some of the first parkland courses in the UK which I understand were built on old hunting grounds, estates, etc.  Courses in the UK do tend to be links, heathland, downland or parkland--maybe clifftop is another category.  In the US, those categories breakdown--we don't have many links and we have other types of typography and soils--prairie, for instance. 

I'm not sure I'm advancing the discussion, but I don't consider Bandon Trails a parkland course.  To me, even though it's not on heathland (what course in the U.S. is?), it's more analogous to a heathland course.  It's built on at least some sandy soil, the conditions are firm enough to allow for the ground game and trees are present but not much in play.  I'd call Bandon Trails a links before I'd call it parkland.

[Bill_McBride]

Carl,

I agree there are definitional difficulties here.  For some reason, when I think of "parkland" courses, I tend to think of deciduous rather than coniferous trees.  Maybe that goes back to some of the first parkland courses in the UK which I understand were built on old hunting grounds, estates, etc.  Courses in the UK do tend to be links, heathland, downland or parkland--maybe clifftop is another category.  In the US, those categories breakdown--we don't have many links and we have other types of typography and soils--prairie, for instance. 

I'm not sure I'm advancing the discussion, but I don't consider Bandon Trails a parkland course.  To me, even though it's not on heathland (what course in the U.S. is?), it's more analogous to a heathland course.  It's built on at least some sandy soil, the conditions are firm enough to allow for the ground game and trees are present but not much in play.  I'd call Bandon Trails a links before I'd call it parkland.

Tim, dont' you think Bandon Trails is really a hybrid like a wonderful antecedent, Cypress Poin?.  Both courses start out in the dunes / links area and wind their way up into the forest, then back down into the dunes. 

The major difference is that Bandon Trails doesn't have holes right on the Pacific Ocean like #15-17 at Cypress Point!    But both courses are a combination of environments.  Ditto for Friars Head and Spyglass Hill.

[Tim Pitner]

Bill,

Sure, Bandon Trails is a hybrid--I was just trying to make a call and not to cop out.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

Sure, Bandon Trails is a hybrid--I was just trying to make a call and not to cop out.

It's always easier to waffle! 

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