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Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2009, 02:14:20 PM »
Your missing the point....GOLF IQ is much broader than architecture or a knowledge gained by playing, it should include much on the history of the game, the championships, the players and you need to go back to 1850 or further, if you don't know who the Earl of Eglinton was you are a non starter. Knowing how the courses evolved, knowing how they are built, how they are maintained, the design aspects would only be 20%. Golf is significantly broader.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 02:22:51 PM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Melvyn Morrow

Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2009, 02:48:30 PM »
Adrian

Wow, well impressed, but then I should not be surprised as clearly you practice what you preach. As for the Earl, I attach a copy of a newspaper article dated the 13th June 1838 re our Queen Victoria.

Melvyn

Gib_Papazian

Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2009, 02:53:49 PM »
There is a very simple method to determine the golf I.Q. of a given player.

Take them to Lahinch, Prestwick, Cruden Bay or a course designed by Raynor or Mike Stranz where they have never been.

Their ability to decipher the complex strategies on each hole before them and correctly (and realistically) apply it to their individual abilities is the surest way to arrive at a quantifiable and defensible number.

Peter is absolutely correct that those of us who pushed through the womb with a sand wedge in hand doubtless posses a visceral unconscious eye through sheer repetition.  Like any foreign language learned as a child, it is not necessary to mentally translate from one language to another in your head before speaking or while listening. It happens effortlessly for those of us who cannot remember a time when golf was not a passionate focus.

Personally, I found it an excellent exercise being forced to articulate golf strategy to a group of teenagers coaching golf at my alma mater. Thought processes I perform in a flash while standing on the tee have to be broken down and explained step by step. It is astounding how few people not raised in the game REALLY LOOK at the golf course. Our team was hard to beat once I made them follow me (no clubs) around the golf course, dissecting each hole and how each might play it depending on their ball flight and ability.

In my view, that is where golf I.Q. begins and ends. My sense is that this observational ability is a separate skill apart from those who know how many hairs in Herbert Fowler's mustache but cannot break a million despite owning a decent golf swing.          

Anthony Gray

Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2009, 02:58:07 PM »


  Gib,

  Well done. I find it better to walk a course without playing it to fully appreciate all it has to offer.

  Anthony


Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2009, 03:02:28 PM »

  Playing Ability?

 Travel Experience?

 Your Library?

  ????

  Anthony

 

When you have enough knowledge to know you know nothing about golf.

That post really made me think.... very wise

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2009, 03:08:14 PM »


  Gib,

  Well done. I find it better to walk a course without playing it to fully appreciate all it has to offer.

  Anthony



Anthony,

Please don't take yourself down this path. Next you'll be playing with an extra ball in your pocket and dropping it in the middle of the preferred drive zone so you can properly experience the course. I expect better from you
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Anthony Gray

Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2009, 03:15:44 PM »


  Gib,

  Well done. I find it better to walk a course without playing it to fully appreciate all it has to offer.

  Anthony



Anthony,

Please don't take yourself down this path. Next you'll be playing with an extra ball in your pocket and dropping it in the middle of the preferred drive zone so you can properly experience the course. I expect better from you

  John,

  I also like to swim across all water hazards.

  Anthony


Gib_Papazian

Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2009, 03:28:05 PM »
John,

Buried in the middle of your snotty bullshit is an interesting thought:

There is a wise old sage at the Olympic Club with vast experience and golf knowledge who has been rating courses for Whitten more than 25 years. When he goes out to rate a golf course, instead of playing it as a scorecard and pencil golfer, if he hits an errant drive, he moves it out into the fairway to approximately where the ball would be given the distance he hits the ball.

He also (as I do) tries to play when the golf course is as empty as possible to have the opportunity to hit shots from different places. He walks around each putting surface and takes a hard look at the contouring and how it ties into the overall schematic. I do the exact same thing because rating a golf course correctly takes a lot of work, concentration, experience and visualization as to how others might tackle its challenges.

So, you may also jeer at me when I drop my ball into the center of the fairway. I find is much easier to contemplate the relative merits of a painting when standing squarely in front of it rather than off to the side at an obtuse angle . . . . like your post.

There are too many idiots on this site. No wonder Tommy and some of the old timers have run away.  
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 03:43:25 PM by Gib Papazian »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2009, 03:34:33 PM »
Gib,

You're making an analogy between admiring art and participating in a sport. I'm likely to be at the receiving end of this, but I don't understand....

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2009, 03:37:10 PM »
Even if it were possible to view the game through another, it wouldn't add to your own personal golfing IQ, as per the thread at hand...

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2009, 03:57:54 PM »


  Gib,

  Well done. I find it better to walk a course without playing it to fully appreciate all it has to offer.

  Anthony



And I thought that Dan King was a one of a kind!  There might be a method to madness.  Can we more fully appreciate a musical piece by not hearing it?  How about a fine wine without at least sipping it?

I do agree fully with Gib's approach to rating courses, particularly when the rater is basing his opinion on a single round.  As to idiots on this site, I've played golf with John Cullum and he is most certainly not among them.

Jim Sullivan,

I miss your point.  Can you please expand?



Gib_Papazian

Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2009, 03:59:14 PM »
Maybe I did not make myself clear. This is not about playing a sport. It is about determining your golf I.Q. - which by definition is a measurement of a cognitive process. How it is so difficult to grasp the relationship between the contemplation of a static painting and an interactive (though static) expression of visual and strategic landscape architecture is a mystery to me.

This is not to say that evaluating a golf hole from one side of the fairway or another (or from a bunker) completely invalidates the opinion - it is just that most strategies are conceived from the center-line, while introducing options on how the player can arrive at the same place by tacking along a path commiserate with their skill level.  

Anthony Gray

Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2009, 04:01:22 PM »

  While you are playing a course you only experience your line of play. There is great pleasure of tasting and listening to a course from other angles than your own.

  Anthony


Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2009, 04:11:04 PM »
I regularly commiserate about my skill level.   ;D

And recently the site's resident expert, Tom Doak, suggested that Jack Nicklaus's design approach (strategies conceived from the back tee and the middle of the fairway) might lack the sophistication of those who also consider the edges.  As one who sees most of the golf course and gets plenty of experience in nearly all my rounds, at least my golfing I.Q. must be approaching Mensa levels.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2009, 04:12:24 PM »
Lou,

For the first part, I just do not believe anyone can view the game through the eyes / or game of someone else...the internal reaction to everything we see and feel is our own. For example, if you hit every shot perfect but decide you want to see how the course suits me and you come down into the crap with me, you'll still have your own abilities in there with you...all you can hope for is that I can clearly articulate my opinion of the course.

In my opinion, Golf IQ is as Gib said initially, the assesment of what's in front of you and realistically setting a course of action to shooting the lowest number you could hope to.

The highest golfing IQ goes to the player who most frequently shoots the lowest score given their physical ability.


I do not believe critically analyzing a golf course for purely conversational purposes has a thing to do with golfing IQ.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2009, 04:17:28 PM »
Gib

Nice to hear from you

Best,
John
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Gib_Papazian

Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2009, 04:23:16 PM »
Lou,

You are probably right. I'll retract my spew about John. Apologies. Since I have quasi-returned to the Treehouse, there seems to be a general degeneration of the quality of thought and writing ability. More and more, I see inane posts like Emil Weber's drivel above. This is not a f*cking chat room for brainless teenagers, but a place reserved for clever, thoughtful responses - or folksy observations from guys like the Evil Leprechaun.

Years ago, there was a debate about a guy who delivered pizzas who recognized one of our frequent posters. The idea was how wonderful that in this egalitarian world, there are people like him interested in GCA. I recall writing something questioning whether neophytes or architecture newbies ought to be allowed to swing their bats in the Treehouse.

I guess I sort of resent people who clutter this site with sophomoric babble and do not have time to wade through thoughtless trash given my time limitations. If you have something to add that is relevant - or even snotty and clever like Shivas - by all means. But idiots prone to dorky taunting or prosaic ping pong for the sake of starting an argument ought to climb down the rope ladder and go find somewhere else to defecate.    
 

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2009, 04:35:40 PM »
Gib

Do note that Anthony's inquiry is about "Golf IQ," and not "golf course appreciation IQ."

I believe the game should be the center of attention, not the grounds upon which it is played. I would encourage Anthony that he will improve his golf IQ by learning to play his own game. Not wishing he had someone else's.

Further, I view the methods and manner of the many practitioners of golf course rating about the same as I view the end product. I find this whole fascination with assigning a numerical order to the quality of golf courses largely a waste of time. No offense to my many good friends who serve in the raters corps. But this is not the place for a debate of the merits of the ratings. This is Anthony's good natured thread about his golf IQ, and I'll detract from it no further.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 04:38:29 PM by John_Cullum »
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2009, 04:53:21 PM »
Factor #1: The ability to separate function from aesthetic.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Gib_Papazian

Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2009, 04:53:29 PM »
John,

Until a player obtains the ability to dissect a golf course - whether in appreciation or not - I cannot see how it is possible to fully be free to make strategic choices with respect to their own game.  

I thought I made that point in my original post on this thread before I somehow vectored off on a tangent.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2009, 05:17:43 PM »
Gib

"The ability to dissect a golf course" An interesting concept. Does Tiger Woods dissect a course better than me? I would hope so for his sake. Do I dissect one better than Anthony, I don't know. Does Anthony dissect better than a 60 year old divorcee who just started the game two years ago? I would hope so for his sake.

On the whole, I will never be able to make anything of the strategic choices Tiger Woods makes.

Assuming my handicap is 10 strokes better than Anthony's, what can he make of emulating me? I have no answer for that.

And what of the poor divorcee? She is probably having more fun than any of us, and she hasn't a clue.

Maybe I just don't accept your premise. Or maybe I don't accept that there can be a golf IQ.

"We finally beat Medicare. "

Melvyn Morrow

Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2009, 05:31:37 PM »

As I have mentioned on more than a few times Golf is more than the sum of its parts. Therefore, without understanding our history we learn very little and understand nothing. Adrian has made a very valid point, his example of the Earl of Eglinton is classic. It defines us as either a player or a golfer IMHO. Any Pro who does not know this guy, I question his real commitment to golf apart from just making money.

To those who care about the game, I would recommend a little searching, because the Earl of Eglinton was one of the names that helped set golf on its modern path. 

The game of golf is all about people, which I would have thought, is a major factor in determining your golfing IQ

Melvyn

Anthony Gray

Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2009, 05:33:29 PM »


  One of the reasons for thinking about golf IQ is because of some of the things I have seen at my home club.

  1- They do not move the tee markers because some guy complained when they did it once. This guy has never golfed out of the state we live in.

  2- The first hole at my home course is a reachable par 5 that at times takes 25 minutes to tee off because the fairway is not clear. I made a comment after others were complaining about the usual slow start that a reachable par 5 is not the best thing to have from an architectural standpoint. Only to hear from a smart mouthed female teenager who recently signed to play college golf "Like we are all going to be architects".


  Anthony


Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2009, 06:12:29 PM »
The question is causing problems to some....if its Golf IQ then some of you have simply misread, if it is meant to be Golf Architecture IQ then thats is another issue. Golf IQ = Golf knowledge =Understanding all aspects of Golf, that would be past and present.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Peter Pallotta

Re: What factors determine your Golf IQ?
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2009, 06:19:18 PM »
On Gib's point about the cognitive function:  My personal golf IQ is very low, about on the level of a fence post I'd say.  Not co-incidentally, my scores are usually quite high, about on the level of a hack.  This direct inverse-relationship doesn't necessarily hold true for everyone, I'd imagine - for some, sheer physical talent can and does compensate pretty well. Now, in some areas of my life, I can absorb and analyze/interpret a goodly amount of information very quickly, and then act skillfully and decisively upon it. I can't do that on a golf course; I usually feel overwhelmed, an information-overload is what I experience. I don't think the long-time player can remember what that's like -- more importantly, he doesn't HAVE to remember what that's like, nor SHOULD he remember. That golfer's cognitive process is happening not on the level of fevered conscious thought (except maybe on the 72 hole of a US Open), but where it ideally should be happening, i.e. behind the scenes as it were, automatically.  The fact that he may not be able to blather on about it incessantly (like I do) is actually proof that he KNOWS, and on a deep level. Which leads me to:

Lou's point about the golf IQs of professional golfers, and how this translates to course design. I know for certain that every pro golfer, every very good amatuer even, has a golfing IQ that I will never be able to match.  They understand a golf course and what it's asking of them far better than I ever will -- and they have the physical talent to answer those "questions".  But I think that, sometimes, this level of deep understanding, for the very reason that it is deep and largely automatic/unconscious, isn't something that is easily put into words or abstract ideas, and so isn't easily 'transferable' to another field of endeavour, like golf course design. (I think our own Jim Sullivan and Jamie Slonis, just to mention two, may be the rare birds who can do both.)  This may sound condescending, and I really don't mean it to be (I've never played a course designed by a touring pro), but I think that, while some top-flight golfers turned designers KNOW, the trouble is that they DON'T KNOW THAT THEY KNOW -- and so they can't put what they've experienced for so many years into a form that allows others to share/replicate that experience. That's not a criticism, in and of itself -- I mean, my man Benny Goodman was playing professionally for Ben Pollack's band at 14 years old. He was already, even then, tearing-off sparkling and razor-sharp runs. If he'd ever wanted to be a music teacher, what could he possibly share with me that I'd TRULY understand, i.e understand on the experiential level?

Peter
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 06:21:14 PM by Peter Pallotta »

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