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Dan Herrmann

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What makes a Tillie course special?
« on: June 09, 2009, 07:28:38 PM »
What characteristics of a Tillie course make it special?   What should a GCA fan look for at Bethpage Black next week?

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: What makes a Tillie course special?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2009, 07:38:39 PM »
Dan,

How much Tillinghast is there at BPB? Will looking for it be a "Where's Waldo" experience, or is it all pretty recognizeable?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: What makes a Tillie course special?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2009, 07:46:38 PM »
At Bethpage: Diagonal Hazards, Tilly likes to punish the shot that is ALMOST great! You will see lots of bunkers on both sides of the greens, again punishing the shot that is ALMOST great. You will see plenty of doglegs and elbows. Tilly was also a lover of trees so plenty of fine specimen out there! The strategy for a lot of the holes will be defined by his "master pit".

Aside from that #4 is obviously a great example of his double dogleg par-5 / great hazard hole, which he designed to be unreachable... Thank you Pro-V1!

BPB is not the greatest example for his green design, which is rather benign, especially on the front. Can you imagine what this place would play like with greens contoured like WFW? BPB is also not the greatest showcase of his par-3's, normally one of his stronger points.

Phil_the_Author

Re: What makes a Tillie course special?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2009, 08:40:03 PM »
I'd like to recommend that you all take a look atbteh Tillinghast Association website (www.tillinghast.net) and the latest issue of Tillinghast Illustrated. It consists of a series of small articles which details clear-cut Tilly design principles and philosophies put into Bethpage Black...

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: What makes a Tillie course special?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2009, 11:30:17 PM »
I have played about a dozen of Tilly's courses.  One thing always stands out is the bunkering.  He is a genius at bunker placement, in the fairways and around the greens.  His greens also have great movement.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Matt_Ward

Re: What makes a Tillie course special?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2009, 12:42:56 AM »
Dan:

The one key ingredient given my familiarity with Tillie's work at BB and his other layouts of renown -- there are few holes where cheap birdies can be had. You need to really be precise on one's approach play time after time after time. BB has flat greens and it would seem on paper to be relatively E-Z from that regard -- but the elevated targets plus the precision you need to get the ball close is never an automatic proposiition.

Tillie gives you room off the tee -- save for what the USGA has done by making BB too narrow -- even beyond US Open play -- but it's the approaches where you need to really earn it. The approach to the 15th at BB may be the most demanding of all the holes I have played featuring his handiwork.

The other thing to realize is that those who play BB in some sort of fear or those trying to be totallly conservative in their style of play will not do well. You need to pick your spots because BB requires a good bit of muscle and daring do on a number of key tee shots throughout the round.

I said this before -- maybe the '09 Open will be free of the persistent wet and coolish temps that impacted the '02 event.

Niall C

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Re: What makes a Tillie course special?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2009, 06:37:06 AM »
I'd like to recommend that you all take a look atbteh Tillinghast Association website (www.tillinghast.net) and the latest issue of Tillinghast Illustrated. It consists of a series of small articles which details clear-cut Tilly design principles and philosophies put into Bethpage Black...

Philip

What an excellent post, great design thoughts.

Although I have never played a Tillinghast course I have always loved what Tilly calls his Oblique design on other courses and can't recall seeing it so well articulated. I am by no means a good or consistent driver but I love holes with a diagonal carry which make me weigh up how much to chew off which can vary on a dailly basis depending on how I'm hitting the ball. This is much more subtle than what a lot of modern architects do (Nicklaus comes to mind) where there is only one carry distance which is ethier on or it isn't.

Niall

Mike_Cirba

Re: What makes a Tillie course special?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2009, 07:29:12 AM »
He was a sound architect who also happened to be an artistic, creative genius.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: What makes a Tillie course special?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2009, 07:32:31 AM »
For all its worth. This past fall I counted Tilly had 16 top 100 courses (Including PV and BPB) in the golfweek rankings. Second only to Donald Ross.

Jeff Spittel

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Re: What makes a Tillie course special?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2009, 09:38:30 AM »
I used to play a lot on a relatively unknown Tilly course. The course is quite short by today's standards due to land constraints, but was a challenge for the low handicapper. Many of the greens were elevated, undulating and small. Quite a contrast from the Black or a Reesified Tilly track like Baltusrol.
Fare and be well now, let your life proceed by its own design.

Mike Hendren

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Re: What makes a Tillie course special?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2009, 09:51:23 AM »
I have only played  San Francisco Golf Club, Omaha CC (listed as a renovation but original design by Maxwell), Oak Hills CC (TX) and Johnson City CC (TN) so am hardly qualified to respond, but based upon that limited sample and my reading and study, the thing that sticks out about Tillinghast was that he eschewed signature elements, resulting in one of the more diverse bodies of work among Golden Age architects.

Phil Young, I'd be interested in your take on this thought.

Mike
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 10:33:41 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jason Topp

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Re: What makes a Tillie course special?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2009, 10:22:08 AM »
I have only played a couple but I found them to be very interesting off the tee, even for someone that does not bomb it.  Trees, bunkers or other hazards create both risk and opportunity for an agressive tee shot. 

Phil_the_Author

Re: What makes a Tillie course special?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2009, 10:44:09 AM »
Michael,

That is a very good observation. Tilly definitely never approached a project with the idea that there were certain hole types or templates that he wanted to use.

Did Tilly liking using specific hole types? Yes. For example, he loved double-doglegs, great hazards and always tried to find ways to use the oblique angle in his hole designs.

There are two very distinct trademarks that he employed and can be seen in most of his designs. The first involves the green entrances. He believed that the ground game was important and that good tee shots and fairway play should reward the player with the best angle into the green, including the use of the entrance by ground to get as close to the hole as possible. He considered this as the single most important aspect in the design process and always designed this before anything else after determining routing and tee and green locations.

Jeff mentioned growing up playing a small and unknown Tilly course that had "greens that were elevated." I'd bet dollars to donuts that they typically rose naturally out of the fairway fronting them and that the mid to back portions were where the drop-offs and elevations could be clearly seen.

Next week at Bethpage Black you will see some striking examples of this. Holes 2, 5, 6, 9, 10, 15 & 18 all have greens that don't rise out of the fairway. Of these, only 9 had the ability to do so, and there is a small entrance to it on the left side, but this is the esception. All those holes either have gullies in front of the green such as 6 & 10 or have putting surfaces located on ground much higher than the surrounding fairways

Now cocnsider 1, 4, 7, 11, 12, 13 & 16. Each of these holes have greens that rise out of the fairway and on which the choice of a ground game can be employed. This option may actually help the astute golfer next week if the wind is blowing, and even the 3rd, the par-3 can be reached by a low drawn tee shot that bounces in from the front right entrance.

The second one is how Tilly designed the faciers of his sand bunkers. I've been asked often, actually more than any other type of Tilly question, as to whether Tilly employed a fully flashed face or one with grass donw to the surface of play. In fact I have even seen and heard architects who swear that Tilly employed either of these and that DEFINITELY was his signature bunker style.

Frankly, anyone who states that doesn't understand tilly's designing philosophy regarding bunkers and/or how he put them into practice.

Tilly employed every conceivable type of bunker facier; fully flashed with sand, various amounts of angle and partial or not at all. What is almost always missed is his reason for the decision. For him it was defining the type of shot that he expected the good or accomplished player to hit into the green. Let me illustrate this with the 18th green at Winged Foot West.

The front left greenside bunker is both deep and had grass on 90% of the facier. Why? Because he expected the accomplished player to be hitting a shot into the green with a middle iron at best and a long or even wood much of the time. As a result, the shot would typically strike into the facier at a much lower angle than if hit with a short iron. If theer were sand on the face, many of these shots would be hopelessly buried and Tilly believed in fairness. Pubish the poor play yes, but only to the extent deserved.

Now the back bunker on the left side of the green was very different. It had depth, but in comparison to the front bunkers is much more shallow and open. The sand on the facier goes all the way to the very top. Why the difference? Because shots that would find their way into this would typically be coming across the putting surface after landing firmly on the green and either bouncing or rolling into it. Those that would fly long and directly into it would bury, but because the bunker surface is relatively shallow, it would be a fair burial...

Paul Jones

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Re: What makes a Tillie course special?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2009, 06:17:03 PM »
...BPB is also not the greatest showcase of his par-3's, normally one of his stronger points.

I made a Hole-in-One on Number 8 at Bethpage - so I vote that Par 3 to be his best design ever :-)
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Ronald Montesano

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Re: What makes a Tillie course special?
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2009, 07:35:41 AM »
Shawnee should always be mentioned in this type of discussion, as it represents his first piece for public consumption.  The island is flat for the most part, so AW had to play with the type of angles you all mention here.  There are 27 holes on and along the island and it takes a bit of work to figure out which are his and which were added.  He is able to utilize the Delaware River as his great hazard on two holes, along with a wee creek on a few more. 

One type of great hazard that I think is overlooked is the ascending hillside to the green.  You see it on numbers 2 and 15 at Bethpage Black and I believe that its use as a replacement for a sand bunker is undervalued.  Clearly the land must satisfy the need, but it certainly provides for psychological and numerical half-stroke penalty in many cases.

BTW, I'll be at Bethpage on Wednesday and Thursday, with rounds at Seven Oaks (Tuesday) and Leatherstocking (Friday) wrapping my dos dias at the US Open.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

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