[Steve_ Shaffer]

Narration and phographs by Barton Silverman, NY Times staff photographer:

http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/06/behind-the-scenes-humbled-by-the-black/

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

What people don't fully comprehend about BB is two things ...

1). You NEED to really be able to successfully and continually drive your golf ball -- both for sufficient distance and meaningful accuracy.
Plenty of public courses allow golfers to hit so-so tee shots so long as they can chip and putt and do all the short shots. In so many ways BB is the complete opposite of the type of courses many people on this site favor. The demands at BB are more front loaded -- no doubt there are demanding greens -- but if you can't get off the tee in the way I just mentioned -- the game is literally over before it starts.

2). The second dimension many can't comprehend from just simply viewing the forthcoming telecast is the imperative nature to hit high and controlled approaches to many of the elevated targets. Unless you get into position off the tee the approach dynamic becomes even more testing.

The player(s) best able to do the above two items will be there at the end of this year's US Open.

[Sean_A]

Steve:

What people don't fully comprehend about BB is two things ...

1). You NEED to really be able to successfully and continually drive your golf ball -- both for sufficient distance and meaningful accuracy.
Plenty of public courses allow golfers to hit so-so tee shots so long as they can chip and putt and do all the short shots. In so many ways BB is the complete opposite of the type of courses many people on this site favor. The demands at BB are more front loaded -- no doubt there are demanding greens -- but if you can't get off the tee in the way I just mentioned -- the game is literally over before it starts.

2). The second dimension many can't comprehend from just simply viewing the forthcoming telecast is the imperative nature to hit high and controlled approaches to many of the elevated targets. Unless you get into position off the tee the approach dynamic becomes even more testing.

The player(s) best able to do the above two items will be there at the end of this year's US Open.

Matt

What makes you think people can't understand the rather simple points you noted about BB?  Do you get a lot of golfers telling you BB is an easy course to drive the ball on?  Seems quite straight forward and easy to understand.  From all accounts, most people think BB is difficult so I would have thought they would have an idea of why its difficult. 

Ciao

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

TV doesn't really convey the kind of personal connection that one gets from actually being there. The same is set countless times when people go to ANGC for the first time and are amazes by the slope of the property.

BB is a massive scale-oriented place. The tee game dimension is often underrated and at BB it's a critical item.

You say my points are "simple." That may be so to you -- but they are far from E-Z from an execution standpoint.

Most people play public golf at places where the back end of the equation -- the short shots / putts and the like are the real test. At BB it's frontloaded and the nature of the property and what you need to do from a straight ball striking perspective is often not really examined or thought of -- especially by those who broadcast the event to an audience whose only real contact with the facility will be from the telecast.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

TV doesn't really convey the kind of personal connection that one gets from actually being there. The same is set countless times when people go to ANGC for the first time and are amazes by the slope of the property.

BB is a massive scale-oriented place. The tee game dimension is often underrated and at BB it's a critical item.

You say my points are "simple." That may be so to you -- but they are far from E-Z from an execution standpoint.

Most people play public golf at places where the back end of the equation -- the short shots / putts and the like are the real test. At BB it's frontloaded and the nature of the property and what you need to do from a straight ball striking perspective is often not really examined or thought of -- especially by those who broadcast the event to an audience whose only real contact with the facility will be from the telecast.

Matt

The concept and all its facets (including the design of courses) of golf is all very simple to understand.  That in no way implies it is easy execute golf shots.  Ever hear of the phrase "those who can't do teach"?

Maybe you should give Joe Six Pack a little more credit.  It is far more likely that they don't care about the intimate details of course design (or how best to execute a shot for that matter) rather than not being able to understand it. 

Ciao

[Steve Kupfer]

I knowthis has been brought up here on GCA before, but front loaded is almost an understatement. Outside of 5, 8, 11, and 15 (and an argument could be made for 14) the greens are remarkably flat.  Having only played a handful of the Top 20, I can only speculate that few, if any, have as many routinely makeable 20 footers as BB.

[Anthony Butler]

I know this has been brought up here on GCA before, but front loaded is almost an understatement. Outside of 5, 8, 11, and 15 (and an argument could be made for 14) the greens are remarkably flat.  Having only played a handful of the Top 20, I can only speculate that few, if any, have as many routinely makeable 20 footers as BB.

The reason 20 footers become makeable at other top 20 courses is because of the caddies these courses employ.

WFW, Oakmont and a couple of other courses employ long-time caddies who read greens so well–you simply need to get the speed right and you should make at least 2 a round... Seriously.

[Jeff Evagues]

If Tiger can hit his driver at BB like he did this week the Open is closed.

[Steve Lapper]

I knowthis has been brought up here on GCA before, but front loaded is almost an understatement. Outside of 5, 8, 11, and 15 (and an argument could be made for 14) the greens are remarkably flat.  Having only played a handful of the Top 20, I can only speculate that few, if any, have as many routinely makeable 20 footers as BB.

Everyone needs an occasional break, especially when playing in golf's biggest version of an S&M chamber!! (

[Dan Herrmann]

Steve,
Well said.

A good friend of mine, a 6 capper, played BB last year.  Saw him the next day and he told me he's never been beat up that badly on a golf course. 

So - how do I get on? 

[Jim Nugent]

I knowthis has been brought up here on GCA before, but front loaded is almost an understatement. Outside of 5, 8, 11, and 15 (and an argument could be made for 14) the greens are remarkably flat.  Having only played a handful of the Top 20, I can only speculate that few, if any, have as many routinely makeable 20 footers as BB.

That should show up in fewer putts per round, and fewer putts per GIR.  Surprises me that is true of a U.S. Open course.   

Others on this site have said that while the greens look flat, they have subtle breaks that make them hard to read.   

[Steve Kupfer]

Jim- Indeed, those will be telling numbers next week.

I would never want to infer that the course isn't humbling--only reinforcing Matt's suggestion that it is the brute length of the place that pummels the player.  Mike Davis has admitted that while it won't be a tournament lacking in made putts, they are going to try to get the stimp to between 13.5 and 14.5 to compensate.

Having been beaten down on multiple occasions at BB, I can say that if there is any course in the world that shouldn't be played on a few hours of bad sleep in a parking lot, it's this one.

[Jim Nugent]

Having been beaten down on multiple occasions at BB, I can say that if there is any course in the world that shouldn't be played on a few hours of bad sleep in a parking lot, it's this one.

If the USGA really wants to duplicate the muni course experience, they could add that to tournament requirements.  All players must spend the night sleeping in their cars in the parking lots.  Would that change the list of favorites? 

BTW, I think the USGA tracks total putts per round, but not putts/GIR. 

Does anyone know if the players made tons of putts at the last Open at BB? 

[Matthew Mollica]

I was in NYC back in 2001, and after trynig and failing to phone book a tee time on the Black, I simply ventured out there in hope. Walking down 5th Avenue on a clear cool April morning, with my clubs over my shoulder, I headed down to Penn Station and got the LI train to Bethpage. A short cab ride later and I was there. In the cab, the driver asked me what course I was playing.

I said "I hope to play the Black".
In a heavy New York accent, he replied "No you don't".
He asked if I had a booking and I told him I didn't, but seeing it was a weekday and I was a single I fancied my chances.
In the same accent he told me "You ain't playing Black today my friend".

Lord knows how, but around 45 mins after arriving, I had my picture taken sitting cross-legged below the sign,
and I was then teeing off the 1st of the Black, with 3 locals who regularly played it.

Several of the tees for the folowing year's Open were under construction. The course felt massive.
As Matt Ward says, you need to SMASH driver accurately, often.

I botched some holes, but blitzed some others. I hit a screaming 3 iron 20 feet above the hole on 15, and narrowly missed the downhiller for birdie. After tapping in for par, a playing companion (who sounded a lot like the chap that narrated the video linked at the start of this thread) said (to be read like New Yorker) -

"Yoo don know wha choo jus done. I would kill my own brudda for a par on dis hole".

It was a great day, on a memorable course. I can understand why so many camp out to play it.

MM

[Anthony Gray]

  Is the set up for the day to day player different than for the Open? How much more difficult is the Open set up than what they usually have for the public?

  Anthony

[Phil_the_Author]

Anthony asked, "Is the set up for the day to day player different than for the Open? How much more difficult is the Open set up than what they usually have for the public?"

MUCH MORE DIFFICULT for the Open.

Consider tee locations. Although many make attempts to play from "the tips" they only really play from the tee markers in place on the back tee pads. Rarely, if ever, are any set as far back as they will be in the Open.

Rough. The rough is never as intense for day-to-day play as it is during the Open. Since the course closed for play on the last day of play that grass has done nothing but grow and it wasn't cut for a number of days before that. It will be "graduated" this week.

Green Speed. The day-to-day player will almost never see the Black above 9. And yes, there are a great many small undulations that come into play when the speeds get above that. 13.5 to 14.5... They will have to add a lot of water to keep them that slow if Craig Currier treats them as he did in 2002 when they were at 15++ on the weekend.

How did the players view the idea of "flat greens" on the Black? Here are just a FEW comments, one especially that I beleiev you'll find interesting:

“Whoever said these are flat greens is crazy. Maybe they're flat for New York, but they're sure not flat for Texas.” Bob Estes
     
“The greens are flat and generous in size, but that doesn't mean it makes it any easier.” Mark O’Meara

“The greens are pretty severe…” Tiger Woods
     
“Well, they call them flat, but I haven't had a straight putt yet. They are very slippery, and they have got such a good surface on them. Plus, we haven't been here before to read them.” Nick Faldo
     
“I think somehow, somebody wrote that they were easy and they were flat, and they are not… You know, there are some greens that are flat, but they are flat on top and they might roll off, like roll off the back or roll off the side or have a false front. But the 11th green is severely tilted; 12th green is severely tilted. There's just a lot of them. One green has a false front and then it's fairly flat, but even the flat ones, are punch-bowly, where you can put the pin up towards the side of the green and you are starting to come up the side of the slope and you chip up the short-side, it's going to roll past the hole. If you put the pin in the middle of the green, there's probably four or five greens that you can call flat, but if you put them on the edges, none of them are flat. You always see a few bombs, but they are going to be so fast that -- they are Augusta speed right now, so they are tough to putt already… I mean, the 15th green is the most severe green I've ever played in the United States. It's more severe than anything at Augusta.” Davis Love III

[PCCraig]

Jim- Indeed, those will be telling numbers next week.

I would never want to infer that the course isn't humbling--only reinforcing Matt's suggestion that it is the brute length of the place that pummels the player.  Mike Davis has admitted that while it won't be a tournament lacking in made putts, they are going to try to get the stimp to between 13.5 and 14.5 to compensate.

Having been beaten down on multiple occasions at BB, I can say that if there is any course in the world that shouldn't be played on a few hours of bad sleep in a parking lot, it's this one.

I generally take stimp readings with a grain of salt, as most of them are wrong, but is 14.5 even possible???

The greens at BB have to be somewhat flat, because if they weren't it would be a goofy golf course. The flat greens allow the better player to at least hole some putts after hitting longer irons into elevated greens all day. Since the greens are so hard to hit, if you do hit one you should be able to make the putt.

From my experiences I never found it that difficult of a driving course besides having to hit it long, because I never felt like I was really working the ball left-to-right and right-to-left, just mostly blasting somewhere down the hole.

[PCCraig]

Green Speed. The day-to-day player will almost never see the Black above 9. And yes, there are a great many small undulations that come into play when the speeds get above that. 13.5 to 14.5... They will have to add a lot of water to keep them that slow if Craig Currier treats them as he did in 2002 when they were at 15++ on the weekend.

15++ on a public course where the greens never usually make it above 9?!?!

Again, won't that kill the greens? Or will the sub-air system cure all.

[Ian Andrew]

I generally take stimp readings with a grain of salt, as most of them are wrong, but is 14.5 even possible???

Even if it were possible - I wish they wouldn't make those readings public.

I played the Black last fall.
I was very impressed with the quality of the routing - but I have no desire to play a golf course like that again.
The length of holes, depth of bunkering and the difficulty of long rough made it a beast.

The only comparisson in difficulty I can offer is playing Royal Portrush in the wind.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I think the real key to playing the Black as an amateur is NOT PLAYING FROM THE BACK TEES!!!! Its fun to play from their blue markers (they only have a 3 tee system, red/white/blue) the first time. I did it. I hit the best driver I ever hit, and a 2-hybrid approach on a few holes, and came up 50 yards shot constantly! But I tell you what, I'm never playing from back there again! Do it once, and then play from the whites (6684 with course rating of 73.9), or maybe even the REDS at 6223 yards! Dont we preach playing from the "proper" tees?!

[Matt_Ward]

Guys:

Anyone going to BB -- whether during the US Open or any other time --- needs to understand that unless you can really hit the driver consistently -- for length and accuracy -- it will be a very LONG day and the frustration will mount big time. BB separate those who think they can hit the driver from those who can really do it. If you can't get off the tee consistently -- then your day at the Black will be indeed as dark as the course name itself.

Jaeger:

Agree that playing the back tees is not a game plan for nearly all players save for the 1-2% that can really drive the ball consistently. Otherwise, you will only get a severe headache when finishing play at BB.

Ian:

Interesting mentioning how BB stacks up against the likes of Dunluce at Portrush. I see BB being tougher even with no wind involved and clearly the length issue gives the Long Island layout more of a demand for the average length hitter because of the carries you need to make at several key places during the round.

Ian, if the rough were less dense and the course were not overly too narrow -- would your opinion of the course change. I frankly believe the course is way too narrow and the rough overly dense and too thick for any real sense of recoverying which is fundamental to the game itself -- certainly for those who are above the five handicap levels.

Steve K:

The issue of BB's flat greens was made previously prior to the '02 US Open and you had people -- on this site -- who were predicting a birdie-fest of unprecendented proportions. BB has greens which are quite subtle -- in many ways they are similar to what you find at Baltusrol Lower -- which also has fairly benign greens -- in terms of savage slopes / contours. BB is not akin to what you find at Oakmont or Oakland Hills / South or WF/W. Craig Currier will have the greens at close to 13+ speeds for the event so one still has to be careful at all times.

No doubt the greens with more slope are even more challenging in a host of other ways. If BB had the green demands you find at WF/W the players would be out there for an eternity.

Sean:

I've played the Black 200+ times over a period of 35 years. I have seen and played the course with countless people and handicap types and in varying weather conditions.

The Joe Sixpack types who frequent the Black are INITIMATELY aware of the course and candidly enjoy the challenge the Black provides -- even if they get their golf games beaten up in the process. I simply provided a description of certain key elements that don't translate out very well from simply viewing the US Open via TV alone.

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat asked, "15++ on a public course where the greens never usually make it above 9?!?! Again, won't that kill the greens? Or will the sub-air system cure all..."

No Pat, there is no sub-air system on the Black. The greens weren't rebuilt before the 2002 Open and none have been ripped up since.

Yes, the greens really did reach those remarkable speeds in 2002. Mike Davis is wanting to keep it down to 13.5 to 14.5. These are perfect poa annua greens. They weather the short term of very short grass well. 

[Richard Choi]

Hate to agree with Matt, but...

People who play Black know exactly what they are getting themselves into. Women don't play it because it is 6200 from the whites (par 70 no less), there are no juniors or senior citizens because there are no carts.

It is a long tough course that will kick your butt. But isn't that why you go to play it? I felt a real sense of accomplishment when I was able to keep it under 100.

[Matt_Ward]

Richard:

My God -- agreement !

Wow -- it can happen !

The issue with BB is that the tee game is central to success there -- this flies in the face of people who prefer the greens to be the central feature for separation purposes between players.

The terrain is what also deters many people from playing there. When you play in and around those famed Manetto hills you will get a work out. Thank God the carts are banned because this would encourage even more of the deep left field seats people who are more intent on drinking and eating than playing serious golf.

[Adam_F_Collins]

When the open was held at the Black last time, they had a great quicktime VR course tour availabe off the US Open site. (I haven't looked for it this time yet). It gave a 360 view from the tees, 150's and greens from every hole (tees and greens on par 3's).

I thought it did a really great job of giving you a virtual sense of the course. It definitely gave a great sense of the scale of the place. I left the tour with an overall sense of... "Expanse", "Distance" and "Grand Scale".

It's not like being there, but it ain't bad from your desk in Canada.

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