[Eric_Terhorst]

I think everyone agrees that Pine Valley is the pinnacle in many ways

The pinnacle of?  If you mean the pinnacle of courses that are ultra-difficult both to play and to access, while being considered legendary in design circles, then I agree.  Otherwise, not sure what you're saying I agree with Ben.

Lyne, what do women want?  When you have a definitive answer with respect to both golfers and women, please let us all know!

For me, what Sean Arble said works pretty well.

[Joe Hancock]

I think everyone agrees that Pine Valley is the pinnacle in many ways

Lyne, what do women want?  When you have a definitive answer with respect to both golfers and women, please let us all know!

Women, not surprisingly, want their courses to have ample length and width, and don't want the round to end too quickly....

[Tom_Doak]

Joe:

Actually, no, women love to point out that men are the ones who obsess that golf courses need to be longer and harder.

Shivas:

Yours is the Pete Dye school of what golfers want.  I've heard him expound on it numerous times ... he says every time he builds a resort course to be fun and easy, it's flopped, but people are lined up around the block to play Whistling Straits, Kiawah, and the TPC at Sawgrass.  Of course, he does not factor in how much press those courses get [which is partly because they are hard, so it's hard to separate the chicken from the egg].

One could extend your argument just a bit further and decide that golfers have no idea what they want, so it is up to the architect to decide for them and then make them like it.

P.S. to Lyne:  If you in fact DO know "what women want," for God's sake don't tell these boys.

[Joe Hancock]

Joe:

Actually, no, women love to point out that men are the ones who obsess that golf courses need to be longer and harder.

Tom,

You're likely correct, but for me it's not so much the pointing as it is the laughing....

 

[JNC Lyon]

Are you people all INSANE? 

I've just popped on here and read two threads - the one about who you pick for your member guest, and this one.

And the predominant thought is that golfers just want to have fun.

Bullsh*t, bullsh*t, bullsh*t!!

That is the fartherst thing from the truth I can possibily imagine.

Golfers want to be punished.  They want an insurmountable challenge that - guess what? - they cannot surmount.

That's a fact and anybody who keeps their eyes and ears open knows this as the truth. 

This "golf should be fun" garbage is just a bunch of popular psychobabble groupthink that we recite around here because we think we're supposed to.

I just took my 7 year old kid to the range.  She was pissed that she couldn't hit the ball consistently.  AND BY BEING PISSED, SHE WAS HAVING A BLAST.  That's what golf IS... 

We're all just kidding ourselves if we think most golfers think differently.   

I agree with the idea that golfers want to be punished by golf, but only to a certain extent.

Pete Dye is very famous for saying that "golfers love abuse," and many of his courses reflect this philosophy.  The Ocean Course at Kiawah is probably the hardest damn golf course in the world.  Yet there are many courses that are as famous and brutally punishing as the toughest Dye layouts that are held in much more limited regard than the Sawgrass or Whistling Straits.  I am thinking of courses like the International and the Concord Monster.  Courses such as these lack a few key elements: charm, variety, and setting.  Dye's courses have these characteristics in spades.  For every brutal long par four and and impossible par three, there is a hole like 3 at the Ocean Course or 13 at Harbour Town that are genuinely fun and wild.  These holes tend to be challenging without beating the golfer over the head.

Golfers want the greatest courses to be serious tests of the game.  However, golf course rankings suggest that golfers also want to be challenged in a variety of ways.  It just doesn't mean nonstop giant par fours and extensive hazards and rough.  Although there is always a place for this sort of architecture in the eyes of the public.

Personally, I want the challenge to emphasize fun and subtlety more than brute force.  As I play it, I see less and less appeal in a course like the East Course at Oak Hill and more and more appeal in the neighboring West Course.  The former forces the golfer to hit it long and straight on every hole to make pars, let alone birdies.  A good round without high marks in Fairways Hit and Greens in Regulation is simply an anomaly.  The latter has more variety to test the golfer, from short par threes with wild greens to long par fours with wild terrain.  The East Course's consistently high ranking indicates that golfers still appreciate punishment more than charm, although the course's ranking seems to drop as the handicaps of the raters increase.

[Charlie Goerges]

Are you people all INSANE? 

I've just popped on here and read two threads - the one about who you pick for your member guest, and this one.

And the predominant thought is that golfers just want to have fun.

Bullsh*t, bullsh*t, bullsh*t!!

That is the fartherst thing from the truth I can possibily imagine.

Golfers want to be punished.  They want an insurmountable challenge that - guess what? - they cannot surmount.

That's a fact and anybody who keeps their eyes and ears open knows this as the truth. 

This "golf should be fun" garbage is just a bunch of popular psychobabble groupthink that we recite around here because we think we're supposed to.

I just took my 7 year old kid to the range.  She was pissed that she couldn't hit the ball consistently.  AND BY BEING PISSED, SHE WAS HAVING A BLAST.  That's what golf IS... 

We're all just kidding ourselves if we think most golfers think differently.   

Damn straight! It's for this reason that even as a child I refused to use "No Tears" shampoo. I felt that even something as mundane as washing one's hair should not be free from punishment. I'm guessing this is why I'm such a healthy and well-adjusted adult.

[Lyne Morrison]

Lyne, what do women want?  When you have a definitive answer with respect to both golfers and women, please let us all know!

Eric - with regards women golfers 

Well, you know - we just love those side bets for each nine, and the match, and dissecting the latest football results in between swings…we love invitations to as many corporate days as humanly possible and the much anticipated annual pilgrimage to a five star, remote golfing venue. We love our latest Driver and beers with our mates at the 19th…….. 






Personally - I’ll just have a fine glass of red thanks. 



Actually - you may all be surprised to learn this -- but some women can be put out by seemingly ‘minor’ events…   I have spoken with women who have been ‘convinced’ that maintenance crews ‘follow’ them hole after hole with the sole intent of putting them off their game – never mind that the boys are just following the field -- and of course we all know that it is cemented into the clubs by-laws that every man has a right to complete his round free of maintenance interruptions.    Then there was the lady who ‘knew for a fact’ that all tee positions for women were dictated by policy from golfs administrative body here and hence the club couldn’t touch them...   I could go on but perhaps that wouldn’t be right or fair.

What does surprise me and with unfortunate regularity is the fact that many higher handicapped women don’t know how to manage a course and I’m sure with a little education they could get on top of this and enjoy the game a whole lot more.

But really - hopefully you won’t be too surprised to learn that golf is a game more about ability than gender and that true women golfers pretty much want the same as keen male golfers, a good deal of which has been mentioned in the posts above. Where things become somewhat different are the distance and strength categories ie. long carries, long rough, penal hazards etc - but these challenges pertain to many seniors also, both male and female.

Excellent feedback folks – thanks all.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think some of the responses on this thread assume that golfers like what the poster likes.  Nothing could be further from the truth, which is why the OP was what do golfers llike, not what do you like!

Most of us also fail to recognize that each golfer has different needs and wants at any period of time, and they change over a long period of time.

Pete Dye was right but his design market is once a year type courses.  I believe most golfers in the middle of their golf "careers" want a reasonable (but beautiful and interesting) course like a Sand Creek Station for everyday play, and then something entirely different a few times a year, including tough and or famous courses (and courses rarely get famous for being easy)  So, all types of courses are required!

As we age, I would bet (shamelessly from my own experience) that we gradually accept that we will never measure up to the tough courses being offered to us and start shying away from them if that is their main virture.  For that matter, for all but a few archophiles, I would think that the serious pilgramage to see courses (like Scotland) would diminish in value for most, even if it were on our personal "bucket list."  In its place might be affordability, convenience, etc.

And, as one poster noted, for those of us who revere golf courses more than golf itself, we have to remind ourselves that upwards of 90% of all where to play decisions are based on the 3 C's - comraderie, conveience and cost.

[Norbert P]

. . .  upwards of 90% of all where to play decisions are based on the 3 C's - comraderie, convenience and cost.

Always avoid alliteration.

Jeff, do you still have that "dos and don'ts of grammar" list ?  Classic post from years ago.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Slag,

Send it on.  I probably have it somewhere on my computer, but frankly, all I recall is - if I remember correctly - my over use of parentheticals (and in some cases) asides.

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