[DMoriarty]

After searching for some time, this morning Tom MacWood obtained a copy of the following article which appeared in the USGA's 1950 US Open Program.










The article doesn't shed much more light on the Francis land swap, but is interesting in a number of respects:


1.   Francis notes that the construction committee was in charge of  laying out and constructing the golf course, but he does not get into how the routing and hole concepts were determined, except for the swap, the 3rd being based on the Redan, and that Merion thought the road made a terrific hazard.

2.  Francis' account of the reasons for leaving the old site differ from the accounts of those more directly involved in that transaction, and is therefore presumably erroneous.     His account, however, may be the source of the later misunderstanding.

3.  Similarly, his account of the timing of Wilson's trip is vague and ambiguous.  He notes that Wilson went abroad "while the committee was at work."   While this was certainly true, it is quite possible that this was misunderstood later as meaning that Wilson went abroad before the course was initially built and seeded. 

4.  While his description of the Redan is a bit odd given that the hole was built and green seeded before Wilson's trip, it nonetheless should end all this nonsense and speculation that the 3rd was not really intended to be a "Redan."

5.   The Francis statement seems to be the basis of the modern Merion legend of the importance of Hugh Wilson's trip, including Wilson's return with documents and the incorporation of features into the course.    Unfortunately, as noted above, this may be a large part of the reason why Merion and others assumed that Wilson's trip occurred before the holes were planned and the course built, and the reason Wilson is credited with the routing and hole concepts.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Thank you and Tom MacWood for sharing that great find!  It is a beautiful historical document. 

I think your assessment of it is correct, although there is considerably more evidence of #5 than simply this remembrance.

We have the words of many others, as well as the MCC minutes that reflect that fact.

[DMoriarty]

David,

Thank you and Tom MacWood for sharing that great find!  It is a beautiful historical document. 

I think your assessment of it is correct, although there is considerably more evidence of #5 than simply this remembrance.

We have the words of many others, as well as the MCC minutes that reflect that fact.

What fact, specifically, do the MCC minutes reflect?  And Mike, when I say specifically I do not mean your interpretation or belief, I mean what exactly did the minutes say, word for word.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I think we should also note that Mr. Francis was an early energy conservationist as he rode his bicycle one mile to see Mr. Lloyd about this matter instead of using his Maxwell Roadster.

[Mike_Cirba]

Oh David, please...let's not go down this road again.

I'm not going to retype the various passages of the the Merion minutes that refer to Wilson's committee laying out various plans for the golf course, or creating five different plans on their return from NGLA, one of which was accepted and constructed..

Even Francis's Memories you've just posted makes clear that the tasks of "laying out" and "building" were two separate things and the Merion Committee was responsible for both.

Just like CB Macdonald and his committee were responsible for "laying out" NGLA in the articles I posted last night.

I would also mention that there isn't a single word about any design help from either Barker or Macdonald in Francis's remembrance.

He also states everything in the first person plural..."We" thought the road would make a fine hazard, etc., and points out that Wilson went to GBI specifically to study golf course architecture.

[DMoriarty]

Steve,

Francis must have been a true believer if he made this bicycle ride when TEPaul thinks it occurred; midnight in February or early March with the temperature most likely in the 20s or low 30s.    Maybe Philadelphia had a late-winter "Ride Your Bike to Work in the Middle of the Night Day."

_____________________________

Mike,

If that is all you are referring to, then thanks for not retyping that information, as it shed's absolutely nothing new on the subject.   I thought you were referring to something that directly referenced the creation of the initial routing. 

Not only is there no mention of Barker or Macdonald, there is no mention of Flynn either, yet the article addresses the redesign and changes to 1, 2, 10-13, or the 14th green.  So by your logic, we must assume that that Flynn was not the designer of these redesigns and changes.  Perhaps the attribution should be changed to a Wilson, Jaques design.

If you want to talk about the origins of NGLA, that's great.  It is an interesting topic, but please start another thread. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

If that is all you are referring to, then thanks for not retyping that information, as it shed's absolutely nothing new on the subject.   I thought you were referring to something that directly referenced the creation of the initial routing. 

Not only is there no mention of Barker or Macdonald, there is no mention of Flynn either, yet the article addresses the redesign and changes to 1, 2, 10-13, or the 14th green.  So by your logic, we must assume that that Flynn was not the designer of these redesigns and changes.  Perhaps the attribution should be changed to a Wilson, Jaques design.

If you want to talk about the origins of NGLA, that's great.  It is an interesting topic, but please start another thread. 

David,

At least you're no longer saying I'm lying about NGLA and Macdonald as you did last night before I produced the articles.

I'll take that as tacit acceptance.

Now, at least you're just avoiding discussing that topic on the other thread, and I can understand why you want to pretend it's not there because it provides direct refutation to a large and vital cornerstone of your essay in C.B. Macdonald's own words, not to mention disproving your contention about how the term "laying out" was used with NGLA as the example.

...one other thing about what Francis wrote..

The original 18 hole Merion course was either on 65 or 72 yards, depending on the accounts I've seen.

In the Haskell age, how could they NOT have realized their course had become antiquated??

[DMoriarty]

Mike,  I never said you lied.  I asked you if Macdonald was lying in 1912.   But Mike, this thread is about the Francis statement.  If you want to talk about NGLA, please do me the courtesy of starting another thread, and I will be glad to address your misunderstandings about the creation of NGLA there.  But not here.  Thanks in advance.

I'll address your misunderstandings about the Francis statement here:

1.   The 18th hole on the old course was either 65 or 72 yards??  I don't think so.   What, specifically are these "accounts" you have seen?

2.   As for what the knew or didn't know, I am not going to guess.  I am just going by what they wrote.  And what they wrote was they abandoned the old course because they could not obtain the railroad land at a price they were willing to pay.

[JESII]

Has there been irrefuteable evidence that Hugh Wilson did not go to Great Britain in the summer / fall of 1910?

I know we saw a pile of passenger logs that suggested he went at a later date, but this alone does not prove he didn't go earlier...I also seem to remember a lack of discussion about two trips implying that the later trip was (must have been!) the only trip, to me this is also not comprehensive evidence.

[Bradley Anderson]

Maybe when people read, back then, the account of Wilson's trip abroad, they didn't care about it's exact timing with respect to the sequence of the golf course's design and construction. They didn't care because it didn't matter.

No one seems to have made an issue of it then. So why are we so concerned about it now?

[Joe Bausch]

Has there been irrefuteable evidence that Hugh Wilson did not go to Great Britain in the summer / fall of 1910?

Well, I think the evidence is close to being conclusive.  See my thread on the article Findlay wrote about Wilson in June of 1912 for the Philadelphia newspaper called the Evening Telegraph:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39341.0/

[DMoriarty]

Has there been irrefuteable evidence that Hugh Wilson did not go to Great Britain in the summer / fall of 1910?

I know we saw a pile of passenger logs that suggested he went at a later date, but this alone does not prove he didn't go earlier...I also seem to remember a lack of discussion about two trips implying that the later trip was (must have been!) the only trip, to me this is also not comprehensive evidence.

1.  There is irrefutable evidence he went in 1912.   There is no evidence anywhere suggesting he took two trips abroad to study golf courses.

2.  Hugh Wilson himself noted that his study trip abroad occurred after the NGLA trip, and that occurred in early March of 1911.

3.  Around the early summer of 1912, Findlay reported that Wilson had just returned from his trip, and that he wished he could have gone over earlier.

4.  The brief time line in my essay places Wilson in Philadelphia for the summer/fall of 1910, and leaves little time for such a trip.

5.  He reportedly had already been appointed onto the construction committee when he went abroad, and that reportedly did not happen until 1911.   He was in Philadelphia or otherwise accounted for at least through the time the board allegedly approved the plan Macdonald had chosen  for the course.  

______________________________

Bradley, 

If he did not go abroad until after he built the course, then his later experience abroad could not have shaped the initial design.  To me that matters. 

While he reportedly added some artificial features and pretty grasses and such after his trip, the course had been built and the fairways and greens seeded BEFORE THE TRIP. 

So how on earth could it not have mattered?

__________________

Joe Bausch,

How could it get any closer to conclusive?

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

My mistake on the original course...I meant to type acres, not yards.

We can also add to our list of facts from Francis that Hugh Wilson, and not anyone else was responsible for today's 3rd hole being an attempt at a redan.

[DMoriarty]

David,

My mistake on the original course...I meant to type acres, not yards.

We can also add to our list of facts from Francis that Hugh Wilson, and not anyone else was responsible for today's 3rd hole being an attempt at a redan.

I hope you are joking here, Mike.  Since the hole was in place before he went abroad.   

And Mike, could you explain your source on your claim that the old course was only 65 or 72 acres.  Because I am not sue what you are measuring, but if you are measuring the land the course sat on, I doubt this number as well. 

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

I'm glad you mentioned that;I've been hoping to have a discussion with you on this subject for some time now.

I'm hopeful you can first answer a question.  In your opinion, which holes on the original Merion course were modelled after famed holes abroad?

I'm thinking 3, mebbe 6, 10, 15 green...any others I'm missing?

[DMoriarty]

David,

I'm glad you mentioned that;I've been hoping to have a discussion with you on this subject for some time now.

I'm hopeful you can first answer a question.  In your opinion, which holes on the original Merion course were modelled after famed holes abroad?

I'm thinking 3, mebbe 6, 10, 15 green...any others I'm missing?

Sorry Mike, this thread is about the Francis Landswap, and that question is much too big for one of your tangents.   Besides that is part of Part II, and after the grief you and others gave me last time, surely you would want me to tell Merion before I tell you, right? 

You claimed that the original course was either 65 or 72 acres.  What is your source for so claiming?

[Dan Herrmann]

David,
Thanks for posting the article.  I love first-person accounts.

Being an intuitive personality type, I especially noted the pride that's expressed by the author looking up 18/14.  To me, that would sound like somebody that actually had designed the place.

I'm extremely fortunate to play a Gil Hanse designed course.  I admire its beauty every day.   But it's an admiration of his work.  I know it's not mine, and I never would have used the words used by Mr. Francis in describing my appreciation of the beauty.

This is definitely not a factual observation - it's purely intuitive on my part.

Thanks again for sharing.

[Adam_Messix]

Question......  Has the 3rd green ever been rebuilt?  I ask this because despite the fact that the 3rd green possesses some Redan principles, it does not look like any of the Redans the MacDonald and/or Raynor built, even in the very early pictures. 

The 17th green would likely be considered a Valley of Sin. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will all of those who argued with me and insisted that the 3rd hole wasn't meant to be a redan please admit that you were wrong.
Apologies can come later  .

Let's start with:
 
TEPaul
Wayne Morrison
Mike Cirba

Thanks

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

It's a direct question, and it's directly associated with the Francis article.

Please quit ducking it.

I'll find the source for the original Merion course dimensions.

What holes at the original Merion course were based on Template holes in your view?

3 - redan
6 - you believe a road hole...I believe it may have been so let's agree to agree
10 - Alps
15 - Eden Green

Any others?

Why are you ducking this question if you believe Macdonald designed the course?

Surely this is fundamental, and Francis touches directly on it.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bradley, 

If he did not go abroad until after he built the course, then his later experience abroad could not have shaped the initial design.  To me that matters. 

While he reportedly added some artificial features and pretty grasses and such after his trip, the course had been built and the fairways and greens seeded BEFORE THE TRIP. 

So how on earth could it not have mattered?

David,

What EXACTLY in the original design, or on any of the holes, could Wilson not have designed or shaped until he went abroad?

Name one thing.

Let me give you a hint...

I wrote;

"We can also add to our list of facts from Francis that Hugh Wilson, and not anyone else was responsible for today's 3rd hole being an attempt at a redan."

You responded;

"I hope you are joking here, Mike.  Since the hole was in place before he went abroad."


Let's use the redan hole as an example, or any other "template" hole of your choosing, David. 

I've listed a few for you, so this should be easy for you.

Please tell us SPECIFICALLY what he couldn't do before leaving for overseas that would have prevented the hole from becoming his attempt to build a redan when he got back. 

Let me give you another hint...

See Adam Messix's question above.   He says the green on that hole is unlike any redan hole he's ever played, anywhere, and questions whether it's ever been rebuilt, which it hasn't.

Again, please tell us what was done to create that hole prior to his trip abroad that would have prevented him from attempting to use redan principles, or to create a redan hole upon his return?

Or, if you don't like that example...how about the Alps hole?

The Eden Green??

Even the Road Hole, which I'll accommodatingly grant you as a possible template.

You PICk David...any template hole.

Let's hear what about the design of the hole HAD to have been done before Wilson went overseas and could never have been done upon his return.

I'm sure we're all ears, since this has been another of your keystone positions.

This should be a piece of cake.

[DMoriarty]

Mike,  you misunderstood my comment to Bradley Anderson.
 
Let me break it down for you.

1. Wilson has long been credited with designing the course based upon principles he learned while traveling abroad.   
2. This assumes he traveled abroad before the course was designed and built.   
3. But he did not travel abroad until after the course had been routed, planned, built, and the tees, greens, and fairways seeded, and at least some of the artificial features built.   
4. Therefore the initial routing, lay out plan, construction, tees, greens, fairways, and at least some of the artificial features could not have been based on what Wilson learned while traveling abroad. 

It is a simple time line.  He couldn't have based Merion on courses he had not yet seen, on a trip he had not yet taken.  Simple as that.

As for whether or not his trip mattered.  All the other accounts of Merion sure think it mattered, otherwise why do they say he based on the holes on courses overseas?
_________________________

As for your earlier post, you claim that "we can add to our list of facts from Francis that Hugh Wilson, and not anyone else was responsible for today's 3rd hole being an attempt at a redan."   

But Francis is talking about how Merion benefited from Wilson's trip abroad.  The trip did not occur until AFTER THE HOLE WAS DESIGNED AND BUILT.   "One hole which benefited was the third.  It was copied from the Redan at North Berwick."

So whatever it was that Wilson learned at North Berwick, it could not have been incorporated into the hole UNTIL AFTER WILSON'S TRIP.  This was long after the hole was planned, laid out, built, and seeded.   

So Francis' statement does NOT establish that Wilson and no one else was responsible for today's 3rd . . . "   

_______________________________

Mike, I am going to ask you again on this thread to tone it down.  I've had enough outbursts to last me a lifetime and for very good reason, I am not taking much more of this.   

So if you want to have a conversation with me you are going to have to take some breaths and calm down a bit. 

Thanks. 

[Bradley Anderson]

What if an amateur sculpture produced a masterpiece statue of David, and it was reported that he based his interpretation of David upon a trip that he made to Florence to view Michelangelo's study of David. But 100 years later, we learn that he had begun his work on David a full year before he even traveled to Florence.

To me it does not matter to the story because he could have relied upon pictures, diagrams, and first person descriptions of Michelangelo's David for his first cut at the block, while putting off his final sculpting for after his trip. You see he had planned all along to go to Florence before he started the statue, but his plans were canceled, as such plans often were in those days, and it was moved to a different point in the process, albeit no less of a genuine influence on the final work.

I guess that is an almost laughable analogy,  but it might explain why no one living back then, that we know of, challenged the legend of Merion and how it developed.

Now someone today could say that there is no way that this amatuer could have pulled it off in his first attempt, and see look: the story about how he studied Michelangelo's David does not even fall chronologically in the right place. But if no one back then was concerned with that aspect of the story, you are not wrong to hold up your scepticism towards those who are challenging the legend now, 100 years or so removed from the people who were there.

Also, Wilson was not working with marble, but rather with dirt and grass and sand. It's not like he was in danger of taking a chip off the block that could not be put back or moved later.

[Rich Goodale]

That is a good analogy, Bradley.  I've never understood why it was felt that Wilson had to have visited North Berwick before he could design and built a "Redan."  Hell, there are all sorts of modern architects who have done the same thing and nobody calls them to task for it, nor should they.

[Patrick_Mucci]

That is a good analogy, Bradley.  I've never understood why it was felt that Wilson had to have visited North Berwick before he could design and built a "Redan."  Hell, there are all sorts of modern architects who have done the same thing and nobody calls them to task for it, nor should they.

Rich,

It's "Merion's" history and tradition that INSISTED that Wilson traveled abroad PRIOR to designing Merion.
It made sense to create that myth, intentionally or accidently, since it would inextricably link Merion to the great courses of the UK.

David Moriarty discovered that the legend was a myth

Mike Cirba and others insisted otherwise.
They fought tooth and nail to resist and refute the facts and the logic behind David's premise.
Much the same as they do with everything David presents.

The surrogate for the great courses/holes of the UK appears to be NGLA and CBM.

Francis tells us that HE alone was probably the only person who could read and make drawings, probably understand topos, run transits, etc, etc..
He appears to have been the club's/committee/s Raynor.

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