[Paul Richards]

Just got back from Dubsdread, Cog Hill #4, and cannot contain my enthusiasm.

Dubs is ready for the US Open!

Since it seems the USGA has officially removed Olympia Fields from contention, Medinah is locked in with the PGA, and Butler seems to have no interest in changing their membership policies, it seems that Joe Jemsek's dream to host a US Open may finally be realized.

The course is bigger, bolder and much, much tougher than its previous incarnation.

I plan to write some more at a later date, but I would love to hear of others' experiences at the 'new' Dubs....

[PCCraig]

Paul-

Interesting hearing your thoughts because almost everything I have heard from people have played it is negitive. Most of the responses being that it is far too hard for everyday play now...but perhaps that is needed for a US Open. I plan on heading down very soon to see the course.

I would like to hear more about what specifically you enjoyed about the work done.

On another note...it would have to be considered doubtful that Cog Hill is just going to get an Open like that without hosting another USGA event as a "test run" much like the 1997 US Am, which they apparently didn't succeed with. And didn't I read an article somewhere that the USGA had a horrible time dealing with Cook County? It will be interesting to see how the changes go over at the Western this fall. I wish Cog Hill the best of luck in their quest though!

[Mark Smolens]

Paul, I couldn't agree with you more.  Played there last Thursday in a pro-am.  Low pro in the event shot 76, and the pros did not even play from all the way back.  I just love the way the course looks.  The routing's the same, and the holes are all in the same places, but it just looks so different.  In the old days, you wanted to be in the greenside bunkers, rather than the long grass beside the greens -- now you're in deep pits/chasms where you're happy to get out.  Fairway bunkers are now hazards for the big kids.  While the greens are still big, once they grow in and get rolled and quick, if you're not on the correct level you'll do well to two putt.

Pat, I would agree that the course is very severe, and I'd be very concerned about pace of play for the public, but I don't think that's going to impact any decisions by the USGA.  I know the guys with the first tee time on Saturdays, and Frank J. told me that they played their first two weekends in less than 3:45, so the course isn't impossible.

At $150 a pop, I don't see Dubs as a weekly event for me any more, but I'll definitely be going back a number of times to take another crack at her. . .

[PCCraig]

Paul, I couldn't agree with you more.  Played there last Thursday in a pro-am.  Low pro in the event shot 76, and the pros did not even play from all the way back.  I just love the way the course looks.  The routing's the same, and the holes are all in the same places, but it just looks so different.  In the old days, you wanted to be in the greenside bunkers, rather than the long grass beside the greens -- now you're in deep pits/chasms where you're happy to get out.  Fairway bunkers are now hazards for the big kids.  While the greens are still big, once they grow in and get rolled and quick, if you're not on the correct level you'll do well to two putt.

Pat, I would agree that the course is very severe, and I'd be very concerned about pace of play for the public, but I don't think that's going to impact any decisions by the USGA.  I know the guys with the first tee time on Saturdays, and Frank J. told me that they played their first two weekends in less than 3:45, so the course isn't impossible.

At $150 a pop, I don't see Dubs as a weekly event for me any more, but I'll definitely be going back a number of times to take another crack at her. . .

Cool Mark - Are the Pros you are talking about IPGA guys? There is no doubt in my mind the course will be tougher, it will be interesting to see how they plan on maintaining the course on a daily basis. I remember the old knock on #4 is that it was always kept in so-so condition for the average players, and cleaned up nice for the Tour guys for a few weeks a year.

Most people can knock R. Jones' work in restoring courses, but I will say he knows how to make a course look good! From the Photos I've seen Cog Hill looks like it got a nice facelift.

Any work on the old news that the family was planning on selling all the land on which #1 and #3 sit on for homes? Anything come of that? That extra land has to be a huge selling force for the USGA as a place to set up tents.

[Paul Richards]

Pat:

You are correct in your assessment of Cook County.  This place is a joke - highest sales tax in the nation, and the corruption is beyond belief.  You know - 'The Cook County Way' - is dirty dealings, family connections, giving your job to your children - including the Cook County President - nepotism, cronyism, payoffs, and of course, we have sent 'our way' to Washington now as well....  The County is in trouble and nearly bankrupt, yet Stroger won't lay anyone off, especially not all of the family members that are on the County's payrolls.... It is just ugly here.

I came across this in the latest GolfWorld:

"Every step of the way, they were an impediment... We were scratching our heads.  We thought, 'If this is how they're going to treat us, maybe we should go elsewhere.'"  --  Mike Davis, the USGA's senior director of rules and competitions, on the association's interaction with Cook County, IL officials when Olympia Fields hosted the 2003 US Open, which could impact Cog Hill's efforts to land a US Open.

Mark:

The housing market is pretty awful on the south side of Chicago, as in many other places around the US, so I am doubtful that any sale of any holes for housing will be in the plans for many, many years.

[Mark Smolens]

Yes, it was an IPGA event.  My pro had just come off winning the Senior Match Play event at Shoreacres, and he shot 80 (he's a very good player, one of the best seniors in our District -- he made the cut and was on the first day leaderboard at the Senior Open last year at the Broadmoor).  Because it was a pro-am, a lot of the better players from the IPGA weren't there, but still, 76 for low pro has to say something about the difficulty. . .

Those rumors about selling off land from the other courses have been pretty well debunked by Frank and the family.  If anything, they have purchased additional land around the property (which is used for parking for the PGA events).

There's no question that there's plenty of room for the USGA to build as many corporate tents as they want.  The performance of the course over Labor Day at the FedUp Cup event will, I think, be pretty telling for the USGA.  If the blue noses from Far Hills are truly committed to bringing the game to a facility where anyone with a Visa card can play, then this is certainly the place.  The greens are currently very firm, but I believe that's a function of their being new.  There are also some very cool chipping or transition areas around some of the greens (6 and 10 come to mind off the top of my head).  I'd be very surprised if you don't like it when you get out there.

As for the USGA's having to deal with officials in Cook County, we can certainly hope that Urkel and his ilk will be out at the next election.  A large drink at McDonald's, which costs me $1.07 in DuPage County, is $1.12 in Cook -- and what are we getting for that extra nickel out of every dollar?  Budget deficits and cousins getting county jobs.

[PThomas]

and dont forget that the aforementioned Stroger owes more than 10k in income tax!

[PCCraig]

Yes, it was an IPGA event.  My pro had just come off winning the Senior Match Play event at Shoreacres, and he shot 80 (he's a very good player, one of the best seniors in our District -- he made the cut and was on the first day leaderboard at the Senior Open last year at the Broadmoor).  Because it was a pro-am, a lot of the better players from the IPGA weren't there, but still, 76 for low pro has to say something about the difficulty. . .

Those rumors about selling off land from the other courses have been pretty well debunked by Frank and the family.  If anything, they have purchased additional land around the property (which is used for parking for the PGA events).

There's no question that there's plenty of room for the USGA to build as many corporate tents as they want.  The performance of the course over Labor Day at the FedUp Cup event will, I think, be pretty telling for the USGA.  If the blue noses from Far Hills are truly committed to bringing the game to a facility where anyone with a Visa card can play, then this is certainly the place.  The greens are currently very firm, but I believe that's a function of their being new.  There are also some very cool chipping or transition areas around some of the greens (6 and 10 come to mind off the top of my head).  I'd be very surprised if you don't like it when you get out there.

As for the USGA's having to deal with officials in Cook County, we can certainly hope that Urkel and his ilk will be out at the next election.  A large drink at McDonald's, which costs me $1.07 in DuPage County, is $1.12 in Cook -- and what are we getting for that extra nickel out of every dollar?  Budget deficits and cousins getting county jobs.

I think that "Urkel" (I loved that) is gone soon, but here is hoping the possibility of hosting the Open in a somewhat strong Corporate city will outweigh all the junk from Cook County. It has got to be far easier to sell tents in the Chicago suburbs than it is in rural Wisconsin (Erin Hills). But what do I know.


Just a random question, I thought that the course has been growing in for a while now, with a "soft" opening last fall. Does it really look that raw?

[Paul Richards]

Pat:

The course does not appear to be 'raw' at all - in some spots, you can see where the transition from 'old grass' to 'new grass' has taken place.  Otherwise, it's hard to tell that this course has just been reopened.

The sand in the bunkers will need some time to settle, no doubt, but that will come with more play and more raking.

The greens are very, very firm.  I had a hard time finding my ball marks a couple times.  I attribute this to the sub-air system.  But if you had opened a course on this schedule without sub-air, I have no doubt the greens would be nowhere near as good.  And the greens putted very true, I thought.

The rough has already been growing and I would defy most anyone who was dropped blind-folded down here to tell you that this course had only been open less than a week.

[Paul Richards]

Here are some things I liked:

The bunkering is much bolder and more effective.

The greens are big, have some movement, and are already pretty quick.

The course can play loooooooooooooonnnnnng - 7550-yards, and a par 71, although I think it could easily play a par 70 with 15 converting.

There are now about 6 tee boxes per hole, so if there is slow play, it is because people are playing the wrong tees.

As long as you stay out of the fairway bunkers, it plays fair.  It's when you get in those, that there is hell to pay....

The 13th is spectacular - they put the creek/waste area back in front of the green and that is awesome.


Things I didn't like:

The 15th hole plays uphill and is practically a blind walk through the forest.  The bunkers left of the green are barely visible from the fairway and the huge bunkers in front of the green are not seen until you get pretty close to the green - so you don't see them for your second shot at all.

The 9th tee shot is clautrophobic - the oaks are so large and so tight to the fairway that it feels like you are in a bowling alley.

Some of the greens - I suppose as an ode to Dick Wilson - are 3-leafed - and there are just too many of them for my taste.

[PCCraig]

Here are some things I liked:

The bunkering is much bolder and more effective.

The greens are big, have some movement, and are already pretty quick.

The course can play loooooooooooooonnnnnng - 7550-yards, and a par 71, although I think it could easily play a par 70 with 15 converting.

There are now about 6 tee boxes per hole, so if there is slow play, it is because people are playing the wrong tees.

As long as you stay out of the fairway bunkers, it plays fair.  It's when you get in those, that there is hell to pay....

The 13th is spectacular - they put the creek/waste area back in front of the green and that is awesome.


Things I didn't like:

The 15th hole plays uphill and is practically a blind walk through the forest.  The bunkers left of the green are barely visible from the fairway and the huge bunkers in front of the green are not seen until you get pretty close to the green - so you don't see them for your second shot at all.

The 9th tee shot is clautrophobic - the oaks are so large and so tight to the fairway that it feels like you are in a bowling alley.

Some of the greens - I suppose as an ode to Dick Wilson - are 3-leafed - and there are just too many of them for my taste.

Nice observations Paul.

It seems R. Jones had the same strategy at Bellerive, where he made the bunkers far more difficut, the course looks more bold, and the big greens into little "segments."

The course will play very long, but I can't imagine them tipping it out even for the pros, it probably just allows for some wiggle room in case of weather...which seems to be the in thing amoung Major venues now. I can only imagine how long the course will play after a heavy July T-Storm.

The Sub-Air system will make the greens 1000x times better.

The changes to 13 look great, and they should of blew up the 9th hole.

[Paul Richards]

Interestingly, about the 9th hole, is that they piled it up to make it appear much 'higher' off of the ground than it was previously.  I was remarking to my playing partner that it seems strange that they would build a green so high up off of the surrounding area, especially when they have spectators - the ONLY way to watch someone putting is to be on the green or in grandstands - that start about 15 feet up off of the ground.  That was strange to me.

[PCCraig]

Just read on Ed Sherman's Blog that Medinah #3 is closing with R. Jones to redo the 11 greens he didn't do in 2003.

He's really making his way around the midwest.

[Paul Richards]

Gosh I hope he puts more interest into the greens at Medinah.  With green speeds what they are today, those greens seem almost parking-lot flat.  Just imagine if Medinah had greens like at Skokie or at Beverly, then Tiger's winning score might be more like -2 instead of -20.....

 

[SL_Solow]

If Rees treats the greens at Medinah like he treated the 2nd green, there isn't much hope.  The carved plateau into the side of the hill may have created more "pin positions" but it looks out of place and is far less interesting

[Mark Smolens]

Paul,
You may be correct about playing the wrong tee boxes, but we played the white tees in the pro-am and I thought the course was much, much harder than my days of playing the blue tee markers every Saturday morning ten years ago.

I frankly don't have a problem with the fwy bunkers being tough to see on 15 (and elsewhere for that matter).  That's why you play a practice round isn't it?

Acc. to Mr. Jemsek, the greens will naturally soften up some as they mature, and their relative firmness/hardness is not yet due to use of the sub-air system to remove moisture.  But, the presence of the system should hopefully obviate the USGA's concerns about softness from their prior experience during the US Am.

I have to agree with Pat about the possible corporate presence for an Open at Dubs as opposed to Erin Hills.  "Come on out for a 40 minute bus ride from remote parking" doesn't strike me as a big selling point, and I don't see any way that people will be allowed to drive into the course on County Road O. . .

[Paul Richards]

Mark:
>I frankly don't have a problem with the fwy bunkers being tough to see on 15 (and elsewhere for that matter).  That's why you play a practice round isn't it?

The issue on 15 is that it is featureless.

After the tee shot, which is pretty interesting (and fearsome), you stand in the fairway and see .....
what?

You see a couple of the tops of some bunkers quite a bit left of the green and - pretty much nothing else.

Despite those deep front-right bunkers, you cannot see them from the fairway - maybe they should have lowered the land in front of the bunkers a little bit, or raised the tops of the bunkers or something to give some definition.  Unfortunately, it is a featureless shot that is without character and is one of the issues I had with the redo.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Pat:

The greens are very, very firm.  I had a hard time finding my ball marks a couple times.  I attribute this to the sub-air system.  But if you had opened a course on this schedule without sub-air, I have no doubt the greens would be nowhere near as good.  And the greens putted very true, I thought.

The greens are firm because they are new. New greens are firm because there is not any thatch. Thatch makes greens soft, that is why we verticut and aerify. Tsub air systems helps pull the moisture out of the root system, actually pulls water out of the drains. It HELPS with the firmness, but new greens would be firm, regardless.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Paul Richards]

Tony:

Thanks for the clarification.

Regardless, these are the best brand-new greens I think I have ever putted on. 

For instance, I played Bethpage Black the Saturday it opened.  The greens there were nowhere near as good as these.

Anyways, the greens putted very true and were solid and firm.

[Steve Kupfer]

Paul - Agreed. I just returned from an early morning round through #4 and I too was impressed--more so than anticipated.  High iron shots were bouncing with some significant height, making holding greens that much more difficult. I was a little surprised that they weren't quicker.  Having never played Dubsdread before the renovation, I have nothing to offer in terms of comparisons, but I can say that it pleasantly surprised me in nearly every aspect--even pace.  Walked off the first tee at 7:10 and had a beer in my hand by 11:20. 

Some pictures I took to relay...


5th teebox


Approach into #1


Approach into #9


#1 fairway


From behind the 13th green


7th green


6th teebox


8th green


Approach into 13


Approach into 16


Approach into 15


14th teebox

[Paul Richards]

Steve:

Thanks for the pics - they help tell the story quite a bit....


As far as playing it before there are two stories:

1 - the 'original' Dubsdread with the impossibly fluffy white sand

2 - after the PGA Tour got there, and basically ruined it - it became a 'tree farm' with regular sand and they took away any interest (see in front of #13 green for meaning to this statement).....

[Adam Clayman]

Could you label the hole number on those pics? Please.

I shudder to think how this great ground (some of the best in the region) that the old individual holes highlighted, has been reduced aesthetically and the etherealness. Even the strategic elements that were present seem all but gone.

I bet the pros eat this place up. When do they next play there?

[PCCraig]

Thanks for the photos Steve.

I'll be out there later this afternoon. I'll try to take a few photos myself for the board.

[PCCraig]

I bet the pros eat this place up. When do they next play there?

Why do you say this? It can't be any easier for the pros than the previous #4...if for no other reason that it's far longer now.

[Steve Kupfer]

Adam- Sorry for the lack of labels, I've added them along with a couple other pictures. I couldn't get a good shot at the barranca on 13 unfortunately.

The fairways are huge and have little undulation, so outside of the embellished traps, they are certainly relying solely on length to bring pros problems.  Has anyone else noticed the thickness of the immediate green side rough? Was that a quality of the pre-renovated #4? There were a few times yesterday that I hit the green pin high, took a hard bounce 4-5 feet in the air and rolled into some extremely thick rough right next to the collar.

Overall, I would agree it may not have that strategic mettle of notable Open courses.  We will have a good answer to whether its suitable for consideration in September when the PGA takes its first swing at the strengthened layout.

Will be eager to get your take, Pat.

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