[Melvyn Morrow]

Three Private Matches – the bet, the equivalent of One Million Dollars per match

In 1825, two men played a set of three golf games.  Each match for five hundred Sovereigns which I believe is very close today to $1,000,000. Back then, a midwife received £2 10s per annum, £10 per year, was considered good.
£40-50 per year and you had a comfortable life.  The full article, dated the 9th November 1825 reads as follows

 

How many today (even if you could afford it) would gamble that amount of money upon their game?


A little OT, but for my American friends. A short report on the state of the Unites States Army, pre your Civil War and 100 years before Pearl Harbour. The report was in The Scotsman on Wednesday the 24th March 1841.

I hope you find them of interest
Melvyn

[Jim_Kennedy]

Those boys were players, although the value of the gold in a sovereign was ca.$4.90 American in 1825. Converting that into modern currency is ca.$92.00 per soverrign, or $46,000 in 2008 dollars.

Not quite a million, but a massive nonetheless.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Apparently Dewey Tomko is a modern version of the golf hustler:

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,600,00.html

Ulrich

[Jim Nugent]

A gold coin site I looked up on the web says each sovereign contains .2354 oz of gold.  If that's right, then 500 coins x .2354 = 117.7 oz of gold.  At current spot, those coins should be worth around $110,000.   From what I read, they sell at just about their bullion content.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim,
Yes, in today's value, you're correct. I was referencing the value of an 1825 sovereign to the equivalent value in American dollars, also in 1825. That would have been ca. $4.90 American then, and that's ca. $46,000 American today.

[Melvyn Morrow]

I can now see why so many of you misunderstand my posts, this is a classic.
I tried to show not just the money value but what it related to in annual salaries, yet you all are stuck on the value of the Sovereigns.

Instead of thinking, Sovereigns think in terms of Pounds Sterling, £500 in 1825 in actual value is not much short of One million dollars today. That is the point.

Perhaps in the future a little more time should be taken in reading my exact words and this type of confusion would not be made.

For your information in a recent book, it was calculated that £10,000 in the 1880’s was worth over £1,000,000 today in what it could purchase. I believe the same can be said about £500 in 1825 being able to purchase around $1,000,000 worth today.

The value for the Sovereign may well be right but it is the money value I was referring to in my post.

Trust this clears up any misunderstanding

Melvyn

[Mark Bourgeois]

There are lots of ways to calculate the worth of something over time. You both are looking at the current value of a coin or unit of currency in order to assess its current value, but this may not be the best measure, as we buy different things and in different ways today vs. 1825.

Melvyn is assessing value by using a benchmark for wages, and that is another approach.

Probably the best measures though would be relative to per capita GDP or as a share of GDP.  These give a better sense of the style in which the winners could have lived relative to others in the population.  PC GDP lets you know how the winners would have compared in terms of status to others in society, and GDP share provides a measure of their economic power.

So, assuming one sovereign back then was assigned a value of 1 pound Sterling (was it?), then by PC GDP the value of 500 sovereigns today would be in the neighborhood of $500,000 and using share of GDP the value would be roughly $1-million.

Mark

[Melvyn Morrow]

Thanks Mark for the information, I just checked against recent values in previous books.

A Sovereign can fetch and command various values subject to condition and date. 
 
A single gold Sovereign in very good condition from 1819 sold for £55,000 recently in Sotheby’s.

However, their value can vary from £0.99 to over £100 each. Hence, my concern re the money value and what its real purchase power is in today.

Melvyn

[Doug Sobieski]

Apparently Dewey Tomko is a modern version of the golf hustler:

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,600,00.html

Ulrich

Ulrich:

I used to play once in a while with Dewey in the Shootout at Bay Hill when I was working there and he was a member. I remember once riding in the same cart with him, and he had $250,000 in cash in a duffle bag in the cart basket with him, just in case! He'd propose some unusual bets to very good players (sometimes allowing him to use "the grease"). I used to love asking him questions about gambling and the things he'd done. As many know, he's also a world-class poker player. I once asked him what the largest single hand he'd ever been part of was. He told me there was $1.3MM on the table, and there was one card the other guy could beat him with. Dewey lost.

Doug

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mark,
Using your benchmarks 1 sovereign was the equivalent of $3,177.82 and $87, 058.73, respectively. Yes, these guys were living in their own  stratosphere, but using a GDP deflator to find the number that represents the "average price" of all the goods and services produced in their economy gives up $119.82 as the equal of $4.97, or just under $60,000 for 500 of them.

I think that's a better way to relate with modern sensibilities. What does it matter in this argument if we know, as the other indicators show, that these guys were among a very small group whose worth was incredibly large when measured against others in the period?

Melvyn,
Glad to see you're as nice as you've always been. Thanks for showing us the errors of our ways.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jim

Do I note a little sarcasm in you last sentence addressed to me?

I tried to convey information, not attack but if you go off on a tangent, am I to be blamed if you misunderstand my meaning. Apparently, well I suppose its better than being called, what was it, ah yes, Horse Hockey, whatever that may mean.

For your information, it was an insight to see how my post was interpreted.  I was trying to be nice as you put it by explaining my thoughts.  

Melvyn

[Pat Burke]

Wow, I read Melvyns post, and found it pretty interesting, thanks for posting it.
Then I watched everything descend into who did what incorrectly again, and I came up with one thought.
Did they ever have the match on neutral ground?

Lighten up guys, I've disagreed with some of Melvyn's comments, but it was simply a cool old story, thanks again Melvyn

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
Did you read Melyn's original post.....

In 1825, two men played a set of three golf games.  Each match for five hundred Sovereigns which I believe is very close today to $1,000,000. Back then, a midwife received £2 10s per annum, £10 per year, was considered good.
£40-50 per year and you had a comfortable life.  The full article, dated the 9th November 1825 reads as follows

How many today (even if you could afford it) would gamble that amount of money upon their game?

A little OT, but for my American friends. A short report on the state of the Unites States Army, pre your Civil War and 100 years before Pearl Harbour. The report was in The Scotsman on Wednesday the 24th March 1841

[I hope you find them of interest
Melvyn


....some of us did, and made some comments. Now, if Melvyn didn't like the replies, so be it, Melvyn always thinks us Yanks don't understand him (wrongly I might add) but what makes you feel the need to be the Internet Thought Police?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jim

You have lost me

Melvyn

[Pat Burke]

Pat,
Did you read Melyn's original post.....

In 1825, two men played a set of three golf games.  Each match for five hundred Sovereigns which I believe is very close today to $1,000,000. Back then, a midwife received £2 10s per annum, £10 per year, was considered good.
£40-50 per year and you had a comfortable life.  The full article, dated the 9th November 1825 reads as follows

How many today (even if you could afford it) would gamble that amount of money upon their game?

A little OT, but for my American friends. A short report on the state of the Unites States Army, pre your Civil War and 100 years before Pearl Harbour. The report was in The Scotsman on Wednesday the 24th March 1841

[I hope you find them of interest
Melvyn


....some of us did, and made some comments. Now, if Melvyn didn't like the replies, so be it, Melvyn always thinks us Yanks don't understand him (wrongly I might add) but what makes you feel the need to be the Internet Thought Police?

Well, a good response to what I feel happens on these pages.  Now I am the ITP, while you continue coaching Melvyn (and my I guess) on how to operate with "modern sensibilities".   There was a simple post about a gambling game that was (no matter how it is converted) a huge sum, but as often happens, it moves in to a thread about how someone else did it wrong, and my thoughts are correct.  Of course, now I'm contributing to the same insanity, and I still don't know if they had a rematch at St Andrews
So, I say again, lighten up, it's really okay either way
Sincerely
ITP

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pat

Sorry, got a little sidetracked, but in answer to your question, yes, I have seen a report that another three games were to be played for the same amount, but I have not found the reported outcome of who won the second round. If I find it I will advise you.

Melvyn

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I agreed with MM that it was a large sum but I didn't think it's as large as he thought and said so. That's about the extent of it, no one said anyone was wrong, they only had differences of opinion about the numbers.

I don't see how you arrived at your conclusion that the thread was ..."descend(ing) into who did what incorrectly again", and I don't think anyone needed to "lighten up", as the give and take wasn't trashing anyone.   
Ergo, my reply to you.

[Greg Tallman]

Apparently Dewey Tomko is a modern version of the golf hustler:

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,600,00.html

Ulrich

Ulrich:

I used to play once in a while with Dewey in the Shootout at Bay Hill when I was working there and he was a member. I remember once riding in the same cart with him, and he had $250,000 in cash in a duffle bag in the cart basket with him, just in case! He'd propose some unusual bets to very good players (sometimes allowing him to use "the grease"). I used to love asking him questions about gambling and the things he'd done. As many know, he's also a world-class poker player. I once asked him what the largest single hand he'd ever been part of was. He told me there was $1.3MM on the table, and there was one card the other guy could beat him with. Dewey lost.

Doug

Dewey would also have some serius money games at his Southern Dunes course just outside Orlando. Plenty of tour pros and mini tour guys had a regular game there weekly and he was known to have some peculiar bets going with anyone and everyone. Former kindergarten teacher... who knew?

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