[Joel_Stewart]

A couple of items.

Lynn I stand corrected on the routing from our discussion on the other site.  Although Fazio and from what I understand Tom Doak did routings on this property, this routing is from Bill Coore.

As far as the length, I played with a guy who is a solid 1 handicap and we played from the blue tees and it was solid and yet fun.  Bill Coore doesn't care about Tiger Woods or pros and anybody playing the Black tees is going to have a real test and yet have fun.  The ratings are,

Black 72.6 / 140
Blue 70.7 / 135

The course is a par 70.  You don't hit driver on every hole, the 3rd hole is an example.  That hole is the #3 handicap hole and plays 508 from the Black and 466 from the Blue tee.  As Ben Crenshaw says, there are some "stout" par 4's there.  I do agree that the 3 par 5's are reachable, but the 13th is 589 and the green is severe and you really need to position the ball correctly.  I also agree that the elevation, around 5000 feet didn't effect the ball as much I thought.

As for Lynns "safe" statement, what C&C course isn't safe?  I don't consider either Sand Hills or Friars Head to be penal in the Pete Dye sense.  There are a number of holes at Clear Creek that if you miss it or hit it in the wrong spot you are going to be in deep trouble.

There are spots that also help you. The below photo as IMHO one of the best greens on the course.  Although you can't see it in the photo, there is a large swale in the middle of the green.  As a result, when you hit you shot onto the green from this location, the ball disappears and you have no idea how it ended up.   On the flip side, if you hit the ball to the right of the green its unplayable.  In terms of a little soft, if you the ball to the left, way left, the ball still will bounce down onto the green.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel, Lynn, et al:

For those who have played both MC and CC -- if you had ten rounds how would you split them up for yourself ?\

Thanks ...

[Peter_Herreid]

Unless something has changed since August 5th, and perhaps it did in the following week's "event", the course record from any set of tees is 67, shot by a multiple-time AZ amateur champion and very, very strong amateur player.  While this is still admittedly a small sample size in terms of total #s of rounds, I think it will suffice as a testament to the challenge of the course as it exists right now...

The tip yardage is at the same time accurate, and yet deceptive...

Against a par-70 with 5 par 3's, a "corrected" yardage for a typical 4/10/4 par 72 course would likely have been closer to 7200 yrds, which given the elevation of 5300 ft +/- for Clear Creek, might seem short for a championship course at elevation.

However, as Lynn and Joel have noted, in this particular southern-facing half-slope, the ball is purported to not carry nearly as much as one might think; perhaps more like what one would experience in the valley floor in Carson City, or in Reno...Still a difference, but not a massive one...Also there are a number of "upslopes' and angles in the fairways of the driving holes which I suspect may eventually be shown to "contain" tee shots distances somewhat...

[Carl Nichols]

Lake Tahoe has emerged as a golf destination just in the last 10 years.  I'm sure somebody has the correct figures but there have been around 10 pretty good golf courses built here in this time period.  Just in the last few years you have,

Clear Creek - Coore & Crenshaw - 2009
Martis Camp - Fazio - 2008
Timilick - Harbottle- 2008
Grays Crossing - Hardy - 2007
Old Greenwood  - Nicklaus- 2005
Coyote Moon - Bell - 2004?
Add in a good remodel that Kyle Phillips did to Incline Village in 2004-05 and you have a pretty good selection of courses for a short season, summer area.

A buddy of mine has a house near Tahoe City (in Dollar Point, I think), and I may be heading out there for a long weekend in early September.  It's been a long time since I was last in the Tahoe area; how far are these courses from Dollar Point?  Putting aside access issues, how would you guys rank them? 

[Peter_Herreid]

The only one of those NOT on the northwest side of Lake Tahoe, and thus relatively convenient to Dollar Point, would be Clear Creek.  I would not pass up the chance to play Coyote Moon, if practical, and would put that one above Old Greenwood, although I would put Martis Camp ahead of Coyote Moon.  While it has been a few years and the course was pretty new, I thought Coyote Moon was fantastic, and all my relatives and friends up there continue to rave about it...

[Peter_Herreid]

This is the reverse view of the green in Joel's smaller picture above, with a (slightly) better look at the green contours...


What do you think of this "quasi"-skyline green?

[Kyle Henderson]

Old Greenwood
Coyote Moon
Timilick
Gray's Crossing

May 29-June 1, King's Putter 2010.
Be there! 
 

Lake Tahoe has emerged as a golf destination just in the last 10 years.  I'm sure somebody has the correct figures but there have been around 10 pretty good golf courses built here in this time period.  Just in the last few years you have,

Clear Creek - Coore & Crenshaw - 2009
Martis Camp - Fazio - 2008
Timilick - Harbottle- 2008
Grays Crossing - Hardy - 2007
Old Greenwood  - Nicklaus- 2005
Coyote Moon - Bell - 2004?
Add in a good remodel that Kyle Phillips did to Incline Village in 2004-05 and you have a pretty good selection of courses for a short season, summer area.

The lake is pretty nice as well.

[Tim Leahy]

Clear Creek from the pictures reminds me of the Dragon at Nakoma in Graeagle area when it opened. Anybody know if Nakoma will ever reopen or is it officially NLE?

[Mike Benham]

Black 72.6 / 140
Blue 70.7 / 135

A 72.6 rating from 6,868 yards? 

That doesn't seem right to me ... in fact, it seems odd that the course has even been rated yet by the NCGA (I assume the NCGA would be the rating association and not the NNGA) ...

Which association did the rating?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Peter email me jtiger@tcac.net  I am coming to Seattle for LSU game. The new system seems to make emailing a challenge. Also I am in Lake Tahoe the first few days of September for anyone wanting to play CC or Martis or one of the others. cheers Tiger

[Jim Franklin]

Peter email me jtiger@tcac.net  I am coming to Seattle for LSU game. The new system seems to make emailing a challenge. Also I am in Lake Tahoe the first few days of September for anyone wanting to play CC or Martis or one of the others. cheers Tiger

Just make sure you beat the Gators when they visit.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Peter email me jtiger@tcac.net  I am coming to Seattle for LSU game. The new system seems to make emailing a challenge. Also I am in Lake Tahoe the first few days of September for anyone wanting to play CC or Martis or one of the others. cheers Tiger

Just make sure you beat the Gators when they visit.

I actually saw one of the talking heads predict a FL/LSU Rose Bowl after no team of interest runs the table in 2009.  They had FL losing at Tiger Stadium and LSU going down in Tuscaloosa.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

A wise head he was. I just did the unthinkable. I gave 2 LSU/flor tickets to a gator. I am getting soft in my old age.

[Jim Franklin]

A wise head he was. I just did the unthinkable. I gave 2 LSU/flor tickets to a gator. I am getting soft in my old age.

You may have just lost your first name status. It may now be Gator Bernhardt .

[Jed Peters]

Tiger:

Just sent you an email to get together for a round. Missed your visit when you were last in Monterey.

Hopefully we can get together.

If you're passing through Sacramento, we can get you out to Morgan Creek as well.

Jed

[Joel_Stewart]

Clear Creek from the pictures reminds me of the Dragon at Nakoma in Graeagle area when it opened. Anybody know if Nakoma will ever reopen or is it officially NLE?

Clear Creek and the Dragon have no resemblance at all.  I thought it was open this year but we'll have to check.  The development was bankrupt but not the course was the last I heard.

Mike Benham:  The course is located in Nevada so I'll assume the Nevada Golf Assocation did the rating.  I can't imagine the NCGA getting involved.  At 72.6, I think thats fair.  I could see some pros going low but you would have to play really well.  As in most C&C courses its about management and putting.


Lastly, this photo is the green site for the par 5 13th hole which is 589 yards long.  Even though the pin was on the right, my host said play to the left side of the green.  I only had 75 yards for my 3rd shot so I decided to go right at it.   The ball landed above the bunker on the green but then gravity (not spin) had the ball rolling back into the bunker.   I didn't think it was all that fair, but golfs not fair???

[Joel_Stewart]

Here is a photo of the great 18th hole.  Par 5, 532 yards.

The little bunker was added at the last minute.   I thought it could be a devils AH bunker but its not that deep.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

From the pics it appears Clear Creek has more elevation change than Martis. Is that true ?

Also, who much fairway undulations do you get with Clear Creek -- it appears that there's plenty of movement on that front as well.

Last question -- of all the Doak layouts you have played where does Clear Creek fit for you ?

[Tim Leahy]

Clear Creek from the pictures reminds me of the Dragon at Nakoma in Graeagle area when it opened. Anybody know if Nakoma will ever reopen or is it officially NLE?

Clear Creek and the Dragon have no resemblance at all.  I thought it was open this year but we'll have to check.  The development was bankrupt but not the course was the last I heard.

Mike Benham:  The course is located in Nevada so I'll assume the Nevada Golf Assocation did the rating.  I can't imagine the NCGA getting involved.  At 72.6, I think thats fair.  I could see some pros going low but you would have to play really well.  As in most C&C courses its about management and putting.


Lastly, this photo is the green site for the par 5 13th hole which is 589 yards long.  Even though the pin was on the right, my host said play to the left side of the green.  I only had 75 yards for my 3rd shot so I decided to go right at it.   The ball landed above the bunker on the green but then gravity (not spin) had the ball rolling back into the bunker.   I didn't think it was all that fair, but golfs not fair???

Here are some pictures from Aidan's website of the Dragon. Just from the pictures it does look similar except for the bunker stylings.

http://www.golfcoursephotography.com/results.asp?KW=The//Dragon//at//Gold//Mountain

[Mike Benham]

Mike Benham:  The course is located in Nevada so I'll assume the Nevada Golf Assocation did the rating.  I can't imagine the NCGA getting involved.  At 72.6, I think thats fair.  I could see some pros going low but you would have to play really well.  As in most C&C courses its about management and putting.

Thanks ...

Is the rating and slope printed on the scorecards?  I would assume the Northern Nevada Golf Association would do the rating but it does not show on their member course list.

I also find it strange, well it is obviously done for marketing purposes but calling it "Tahoe" is a bit of a stretch ...

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel:

From the pics it appears Clear Creek has more elevation change than Martis. Is that true ?

Also, who much fairway undulations do you get with Clear Creek -- it appears that there's plenty of movement on that front as well.

Last question -- of all the Doak layouts you have played where does Clear Creek fit for you ?

Martis Camp sits on the side of a hill.  I would say that Martis Camp has more elevation change.

There is plenty of movement on the fairways at Clear Creek and some at Martis Camp.

I'm not sure how I can compare Clear Creek to a Doak layout.  Did you mean Coore and Crenshaw?



Mike Benham: 

Yes the slope and rating are printed on the scorecard.

Its only a few miles from Lake Tahoe although its a little bit of a drive to Incline or South Shore.  It took me 1 hour to drive there from tahoe City.  The development offices are in Minden. 

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Mike Benham:  The course is located in Nevada so I'll assume the Nevada Golf Assocation did the rating.  I can't imagine the NCGA getting involved.  At 72.6, I think thats fair.  I could see some pros going low but you would have to play really well.  As in most C&C courses its about management and putting.

Thanks ...

Is the rating and slope printed on the scorecards?  I would assume the Northern Nevada Golf Association would do the rating but it does not show on their member course list.

I also find it strange, well it is obviously done for marketing purposes but calling it "Tahoe" is a bit of a stretch ...

Tell me again, why is it called Olympic Club?

[Joel_Stewart]

[

Tell me again, why is it called Olympic Club?

[/quote]

And is Riviera on the French Riviera?

[Matt_Ward]

Yes Joel -- forgive me -- to what C&C other courses you have played.

if you had ten rounds at Sand Hills and Clear Creek what is the split ?

ditto for Friar's Head ?

etc, etc.

thanks ...

[Joel_Stewart]

Its a step down from Friars Head and Sand Hills but in all fairness, those courses are elite, top 100 in world.

I would say its even with Bandon Trails.  I really like the first 5 holes at Bandon Trails but then it lets down then picks back up.  Clear Creek is solid 18 holes, every hole is unique and different.

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