[Mike_Cirba]

Tony,

Yes, Macdonald said that simply based on the plan and looking at the land the holes were going to be built on when he visited in April 1911.

As far as your questions to David, I think you'll find he made a number of assumptions that were incorrect as did the rest of us.

[Tony_Chapman]

At this point, the biggest unanswered question I have is simply this...

What were the original 117 acres referred to and should we just be now assuming that they gained 3 acres somewhere along the border of Golf House Road between the original "approximate" boundary drawn on the November 1910 Land Plan and what was finalized by July 1911?

Mike -- What is the source of your "original 117 acres" that you are trying to get answered?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tony,

Original club documents from Nov 1910 talk about Merion securing 117 acres for the golf course which we know did not include the RR 3 acre land.

Somehow between that time and July 1911 that grew to 120.1, also not including the 3 acres of RR land.

[Tony_Chapman]

Michael:

You spent a lot of time there with some pretty comprehensive information....

Did that entire redelineation of the proposed road (the future Club House Rd) from Francis's idea create a perfect net land swap between the golf course land and the residential real estate proposed development land to the west? That's hard to say but the fact is measuring it all out on the ground today could be done with accuracy to determine that given that November 15, 1910 proposed plan of the course and proposed real estate development to the west is scaled on the plan. But even if it didn't, the fact is by around the end of December 1910 Lloyd owned the entire Johnson Farm anyway including a piece that is now part of the residential development across Ardmore Ave from the 2nd hole. And that is not to even mention that by that time he and his MCC syndicate may've controlled most of the Haverford Development Co. too.

I think Tom answered your question -- maybe indirectly -- in the second post of this thread!! Read that first sentence he wrote and you can safely answer it at this point can't you? It wasn't a "perfect net land swap" meaning maybe they really were trying to get to 117 acres, but to make good golf holes they couldn't. My "hypothesis" (lord know we don't need anymore of those on this thread) is that Francis approached the development company about Merion purchasing 120 acres (which we know was agreed upon because it's in the deed) for the $90,000 that they had budgeted and they agreed. The tougher part of his job may have been convincing the board on the lease, but from what I recall seeing earlier Merion was able to do this for $1 plus property taxes on the railroad land.

[Bradley Anderson]

Mike -- Here is what I was referring to. I know I've seen it in this thread somewhere, but this is taken from David's essay:

In the May 1911 edition of American Golfer, “Hazard,” thought to be A. W. Tillinghast, reported on their return visit to Ardmore Avenue.

The new course of the Merion Cricket Club is nearing completion in the planning. During the month Mr. Chas. B. Macdonald and Mr. H. J. Whigham, who have been aiding the committee, visited the course and expressed themselves as being greatly pleased over the prospects. Mr. Macdonald said that in his opinion seven of the holes equaled any in this country and as our first national champion has played over most of the links, this statement of his should cause much satisfaction.


I obvioulsy mis-read this. As it just says "seven holes" I thought it was the "last seven."

Tony,

In January 1913, Far And Sure writes: "It is too early to attempt an analytical criticism of the various holes for many of them are but rough drafts of the problems, conceived by the construction committee, headed by Mr. Hugh I. Wilson. Mr. Wilson visited many prominent British courses last summer, searching for ideas, many of which have been used."

In the previous paragraph Far And Sure wrote: "Two years ago, Mr. Charles B.Macdonald, who had been of great assistance, in an advisory way, told me that Merion would have one of the best inland courses he had ever seen."

[Tony_Chapman]

Bradley -- Thanks! I did also read something in David's essay, I think by Far and Sure as well that said something about the last five holes, as well.

[Bradley Anderson]

I failed to include in that last post that Far And Sure was not Tillinghast. It was actually Macdonald.

Here is how I came to that conclusion:

A. Macdonald founded Chicago Golf Club.
B. The motto of Chicago Golf Club is Far & Sure.
C. If someone else would have used Macdonald's club motto as a mere Pen name, he would have been enraged.
D. Since no one else but Macdonald could use that motto as a pen name, without being blackballed by the most powerful man in American golf, it therefore follows that Far And Sure is Macdonald.

The dots all connect perfectly.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tony,

So you're thinking that the "swa" was just a redelineation of the property boundary along Golf House Road that happened to net out as Merion needing 3 more acres than originally believed and originally drawn on the Noxember Land Plan where that boundary is drawn "approzimate"?

[Tony_Chapman]

Mike -- I think so. I hate referring to it as a "swap" because no land really exchanged hands. We know Lloyd was under control of 161 acres at the time, but could only use 120 (or, maybe, even 117). I believe when they proposed the idea to members that they had a very rough plan which shows in green on the proposed map plan. I think some on here had estimated that at 117 acres. What Lloyd and company failed to get (at the time they issued the plan) is that they couldn't fit golf holes all they up to College Ave. However, Lloyd (in looking at his entire 161 acres) knew he could get the holes in a bit wider area if he eliminated the "golf course land" next to the McFadden property.

So, he widened that area to fit 15 and 16. I do think its possible that the "proposed" course on the November 1910 plan was 117 acres and that by widening the corridor of the 15th and 16th, Merion ended up having to buy 120.1. I've got no facts to go on other than Bryan already told us that Merion took title to 120.1 acres in July 1911 based on the recorded deed.

Mike, do you know if there are anything in the minutes where the board approved the purchase of the land between April 1911 and July 1911 when the deed was recorded?

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley -- Thanks! I did also read something in David's essay, I think by Far and Sure as well that said something about the last five holes, as well.

Indeed he did:

"In speaking of this hole we must, in general, consider the last two, for collectively they make a particularly fine finish. The hazard on each is an immense quarry hole which has been cleared and tidied up. It yawns before the long second shot of the sixteenth, and the drives from the seventeenth and eighteenth teeing-grounds. It is a wonderful hazard, mostly mental to be sure, but yet troublesome, particularly the sixteenth. It is rather amusing to recall an incident of the days when the committee was investigating the land where the course was built. When they recommended the purchase of the property one member of the club, after looking over it, said: It seems to be all right with the exception of that quarry. Good heavens, gentlemen! It will cost twenty-five thousand dollars to fill it up."

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

The numbers are indeed perplexing.

I see nowhere that the 3 acres purchase mentioned in April 1911 can be identified.

It makes me wonder if they at first thought they needed to buy the 3 acres of Railroad land near the clubhouse and instead simply negotiated a cheap lease deal the next month.  That is the conclusion I'm leaning towards.  I'll have to go back and check the wording of the Thompson resolution and the date the land was leased, but the coincidence is too great to ignore.  The nail in this coffin would be a minute from MCC saying that the purchase wasn't executed as approved, but rather the land was leased.  Absent that, I think that this is the most plausible conclusion.

Again, pure speculation, but I think all of us are left with more questions than answers right now and I don't see how what's been measured neatly encapsulates any of the theories that have been bandied about.

Do you?

[Bryan Izatt]

Two other questions, not sure either is applicable.

You mentioned earlier something about True North changing over time.   Does that factor at all here?  True North is constant.  Magnetic North varies with time.  The surveyors recorded magnetic compass readings.  I had to correct for that placing the metes on the map.  No, I don't think it bears on the results we're seeing.

Also, David has long contended that Merion's holes were mismeasured "along the ground" by some factor.   Any chance a surveyor back then made some percentage error?  I'll have to get back to you on that, but no, I doubt they got it wrong.  The defining thing of course is the monuments and stakes in the ground.  The metes and bounds just tell you where to go look for them.

Again, I want to thank you for doing all of this, Bryan...I'm sure it's been a lot of work! 

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Re your question

"Could you explain your last sentence about Tom's mathematical machinations or at least refer me to the particular post?"

I was referring to the eureka moment that Tom (and you, later) was pushing in mathematically deducing what was in the 117 and 120 acres.  It's embodied in the post below, although he presented it multiple time going way back to posts #652, 656 and 670.  I've added the correct numbers in red to highlight how the math should have been done.  The error is the opening assumption that the Johnson land never considered for the course (what I've labeled Area RE) was 23 acres.  It's not - it's 21.1 acres.  Based on that false assumption, the rest of the analysis falls apart.

"***EDIT*** I just went back and see that Bryan Izatt measured the land of the Johnson Farm north of Ardmore Ave. but west of Golf House road at 22 acres.   The Johnson Farm itself was just over 140 acres, which means if the original HDC offer was simply for the portions south of Ardmore Avenue, and the northeast section above Ardmore Avenue, that would be around 118 acres total.

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but it is certainly possible that this is the portion of land M&W were asked to consider and report on. (drawn crudely in black)"



You're not sure if it's RELEVENT??

Of course it's relevent! All one needs to do is follow the timeline of what MCC and HDC were doing from around July 1910 to about the middle of December 1910 to understand just how relevent it really is. Whether they had their eye on the Dallas Estate in June or July 1910 or whether they didn't the fact is when the Dallas Estate was finally nailed down by HDC around the beginning of Nov. 1910 that is practically the same day and certainly the same week Lloyd and Connell completed their negotiations and the actual formal offer was made by Nickolson to Evans through Lloyd and MCC's board voted on it and accepted the offer to purchase 117 acres!!

Then when MCC came in with their working topo contour maps (probably in the end of Dec or beginning of Jan 1911) with that proposed road drawn on the map to scale that they used to route and design numerous courses and plans on throughout the winter and early spring of 1911, one needs to realize that the land to the west of that road and between the western boundary at the top of the "L" of the old Johnson farm was approximately 21 acres that I said back on post #652, 656 and 670 I am convinced it was!

As I said in those posts back there:

23 acres=the western section of the old Johnson farm never considered for golf  Tom assumed it was 23 acres.  It's not, it's 21.1 acres
140.137 acres=the entire Johnson farm
140-23=117 acres  140.137 - 21.1 = 119.037

Remove that app 21 acres (Another false assumption, it now measures to be 19.8 acres)  from the 117  (really should be 119.037, as above) I mentioned on posts #652, 656, and 670 of the old Johnson farm to the west of the proposed road from the course plan (as it was on their working topo survey maps);

117-21=96 acres   119.037 - 19.8 = 99.237 acres

ADD the Dallas estate (21 acres  Deeded as 21.02 acres)

96+21=117 acres   99.327 + 21.02 = 120.347 acres

ADD the exchange AND 3 acre additional purchased acres to the golf course land via the Francis fix idea gotten along the extension of Golf House Road through it's redelineation from the working topo survey maps to its actual metes and bounds "as built" delineation (Thompson Resolution)----I've been saying this for over a year now!

117+3=120.1 acres of the July 21, 1911 deed from Lloyd to MCCGA   120.347 + 3 = 123.347 acres   Oooops, wrong answer!  It's not the 120.01 acres on the July 21, 1911 deed from Lloyd to MCCGA.  The flaws are in the original assumption, by Tom, that the Johnson Estate land never considered for the golf course was 23 acres, and the assumption that the land west of GHR to the western boundary of the Johnson Farm was 21 acres.  Neither were as assumed by Tom.  Perhaps that was why he wanted to sell me his methodology and why he didn't want to share the deeds and metes and bounds.  Hope that helps, Mike.


THIS is why I said in posts #652, 656 and 670 that when the metes and bounds of Golf House Road are measured with and enclosed with that old Johnson boundary (after the Francis fix) the area in there is no longer app 21 acres BUT 18!! (posts #652, 656 and 670!)


(of course if the road actually crossed over the old Johnson farm western boundary at the top of the "L" and into the Taylor estate a professional surveyor can easily find the small remainder).


There is no question in my mind what this serves to do is set that Francis idea and fix inside at some point the TIMEFRAME of Dec. 19, 1910 AND April 19, 1911 (but much more likely before April 6, 1911) and it is all reflected in the July 21, 1911 deed from Lloyd to MCCGA. If it happened before that none of this makes any sense and I guarantee you when a professional surveyor does these metes and bounds measurments THEY WILL match my incremental results above of 21 and then 18!

I've been saying this for 2-3 weeks and so far no one seems to understand it. This is the only place a boundary adjustment could have happened and the Francis boundary adjustment is the only one ever mentioned in this timeframe so it is the only one that could've happened in this timeframe! If Bryan measures the right boundaries and he measures well I'm convinced he will come to the same results. But if he does he still may not quite understand what it really means! We'll see.

Bryan,

I think I know what happened.

Your correction of Tom's numbers needs a slight correction, as well.

Tom adds in 3 acres as his last calculation, but those three acres need to be subtracted from somewhere else first, because it was ALL land along the division between the Golf Course and Johnson Farm land on RW that we're talking about.  

That would mean that prior to the "swap", the land marked "JW" would have been not 19.8 acres, but 22.8 acres, as the golf course at that time before Mr. Francis and his brainstorm was only 117 acres as determined in November 1910 and not the 120 acres it was built as (plus an additional 3 acres of leased railroad land not included in this calculation).   

We also know that Hugh Wilson's Committee report of April 19th, 1911 asking for approval of a land swap for land ALREADY PURCHASED for land adjoining AND approval for the purchase of three more acres for $7,500 was presented at a Merion Board meeting.

I think your numbers prove that swap/purchase had to be along Golf House Road, and I think we all also now know that this was indeed the Francis Land Swap..


So, with great appreciation and thankfulness for everything you've done here, Bryan,  I think the calculations should be;

23 acres=the western section of the old Johnson farm never considered for golf  Tom assumed it was 23 acres.  It's not, it's 21.1 acres CORRECT

140.137 acres=the entire Johnson farm
140-23=117 acres  140.137 - 21.1 = 119.037 CORRECT

Remove that app 21 acres (Another false assumption, it now measures to be 19.8 acres)  from the 117  (really should be 119.037, as above) I mentioned on posts #652, 656, and 670 of the old Johnson farm to the west of the proposed road from the course plan (as it was on their working topo survey maps); No, it is not 19.8 acres.  At that time prior to the 3 acre swap of land on that side of Golf House Road it would have been 22.8 acres

117-21=96 acres   119.037 - 19.8 = 99.237 acres This should be corrected to read 119.037 - 22.8 = 96.237

ADD the Dallas estate (21 acres  Deeded as 21.02 acres)

96+21=117 acres   99.327 + 21.02 = 120.347 acres This should be corrected to read 96.237 + 21.02 = 117.347

ADD the exchange AND 3 acre additional purchased acres to the golf course land via the Francis fix idea gotten along the extension of Golf House Road through it's redelineation from the working topo survey maps to its actual metes and bounds "as built" delineation (Thompson Resolution)----I've been saying this for over a year now!

117+3=120.1 acres of the July 21, 1911 deed from Lloyd to MCCGA   120.347 + 3 = 123.347 acres. This should be corrected to read 117.347 + 3 = 120.347..


With your agreement, I think we've figured this out.

What do you think, Bryan?

[Bradley Anderson]

This is from The American Golfer, May 1911.

The new course of the Merion
Cricket Club is nearing completion in
the planning. During the month Mr.
Chas. B. Macdonald and Mr. H. J.
Whigham, who have been aiding the
committee, visited the course and expressed
themselves as being greatly
pleased over the prospects. Mr. Macdonald
said that in his opinion seven
of the holes equaled any in this country,
and as our first national champion
has played over most of the links, this
statement from him should cause much
satisfaction.

According to this source Mr. Whigham is equally involved as an aide to the committee.

[Tony_Chapman]

Bryan,

I think I know what happened.

Your correction of Tom's numbers needs a slight correction, as well.

Tom adds in 3 acres as his last calculation, but those three acres need to be subtracted from somewhere else first, because it was ALL land along the division between the Golf Course and Johnson Farm land on RW that we're talking about.  

That would mean that prior to the "swap", the land marked "JW" would have been not 19.8 acres, but 22.8 acres, as the golf course at that time before Mr. Francis and his brainstorm was only 117 acres as determined in November 1910 and not the 120 acres it was built as (plus an additional 3 acres of leased railroad land not included in this calculation).   

We also know the April 1911 minutes refer to this additional 3 acre purchase on land "adjoining" land already purchased, which I think your numbers prove had to be along Golf House Road..

So I think the calculations should be;

23 acres=the western section of the old Johnson farm never considered for golf  Tom assumed it was 23 acres.  It's not, it's 21.1 acres CORRECT

140.137 acres=the entire Johnson farm
140-23=117 acres  140.137 - 21.1 = 119.037 CORRECT

Remove that app 21 acres (Another false assumption, it now measures to be 19.8 acres)  from the 117  (really should be 119.037, as above) I mentioned on posts #652, 656, and 670 of the old Johnson farm to the west of the proposed road from the course plan (as it was on their working topo survey maps); No, it is not 19.8 acres.  At that time prior to the 3 acre swap of land on that side of Golf House Road it would have been 22.8 acres

117-21=96 acres   119.037 - 19.8 = 99.237 acres This should be corrected to read 119.037 - 22.8 = 96.237

ADD the Dallas estate (21 acres  Deeded as 21.02 acres)

96+21=117 acres   99.327 + 21.02 = 120.347 acres This should be corrected to read 96.237 + 21.02 = 117.347

ADD the exchange AND 3 acre additional purchased acres to the golf course land via the Francis fix idea gotten along the extension of Golf House Road through it's redelineation from the working topo survey maps to its actual metes and bounds "as built" delineation (Thompson Resolution)----I've been saying this for over a year now!

117+3=120.1 acres of the July 21, 1911 deed from Lloyd to MCCGA   120.347 + 3 = 123.347 acres. This should be corrected to read 117.347 + 3 = 120.347..


With your agreement, I think we've figured this out.

What do you think, Bryan?

Mike -- You have me on board with this. Maybe a simple break down would be as follows (using approximate numbers):

1. November 1910 -- Proposed land plan to members shows golf course on 117 acres, however, Lloyd can set boundaries as he chooses.

2. Between 11/1910 and 4/1911 board meeting -- Francis and company realize they can't get good golf in the proposed land and he proposes to Lloyd a widening of the area for 15 and 16 and a minor give back of some are north of where they want to locate the 15th green and 16th tee. The result is an increase to Merion's acreage to 120.1 acres, not 117 as originally proposed.

Your quote from the previous post:
"We also know the April 1911 minutes refer to this additional 3 acre purchase on land "adjoining" land already purchased, which I think your numbers prove had to be along Golf House Road.."

It appears to me we've solved how it went from 117 on the 11/1910 plan to 120.1 deeded in July, 1911.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike -- You have me on board with this. Maybe a simple break down would be as follows (using approximate numbers):

1. November 1910 -- Proposed land plan to members shows golf course on 117 acres, however, Lloyd can set boundaries as he chooses.

2. Between 11/1910 and 4/1911 board meeting -- Francis and company realize they can't get good golf in the proposed land and he proposes to Lloyd a widening of the area for 15 and 16 and a minor give back of some are north of where they want to locate the 15th green and 16th tee. The result is an increase to Merion's acreage to 120.1 acres, not 117 as originally proposed.

Your quote from the previous post:
"We also know the April 1911 minutes refer to this additional 3 acre purchase on land "adjoining" land already purchased, which I think your numbers prove had to be along Golf House Road.."

It appears to me we've solved how it went from 117 on the 11/1910 plan to 120.1 deeded in July, 1911.

Tony,

Yes, I think we're on the same page.   The only thing I'm not 100% sure of yet is all of the "give back" areas, which we'll probably never know 100% unless we find the actual topographical map the Committee was working from beginning early 1911.   That November Land Plan only showed the "approximate" boundary, but the topo would have been exact.

I'm thinking they were very, very close, though.

I do agree that the "give back" land included land north of 15/16, which we had never considered before, but I think it makes sense.   I also think some land was likely returned down along the 14th tee across from the clubhouse, but perhaps not.

Perhaps they just designed and built the holes and then built the road along their perimeter as you said yesterday.

In any case, I really want to hear Bryan's take, as well.

[Tony_Chapman]

Tony,

Yes, I think we're on the same page.   The only thing I'm not 100% sure of yet is all of the "give back" areas, which we'll probably never know 100% unless we find the actual topographical map the Committee was working from beginning early 1911.   That November Land Plan only showed the "approximate" boundary, but the topo would have been exact.

I'm thinking they were very, very close, though.

I do agree that the "give back" land included land north of 15/16, which we had never considered before, but I think it makes sense.   I also think some land was likely returned down along the 14th tee across from the clubhouse, but perhaps not.

Perhaps they just designed and built the holes and then built the road along their perimeter as you said yesterday.

In any case, I really want to hear Bryan's take, as well.

Mike -- I think it'd be a novel idea if you could figure it out, but my guess is you'd beat your head against a wall because there were never any boundaries "set". Without that how could we ever figure out what was change? And, why do we care, to be honest? We do, however, know exactly what was finished. It's not something I really need to feel good about solving the mystery, I guess.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tony,

I agree.  The only point being that one would need to see the original topo Wilson was working with before the land swap to know exactly where the bits of land were exchanged, which would be a cool and amazing find in and of itself, but not really relevant to figuring out what happened for solving this mystery.

As long as the swap happened along the road and not some addition of the northern triangle, which I believe we now clearly know and the evidence supports, then I'm thinking we're close to putting this to it's final resting place.

Do you also have a wooden stake I can borrow? 

[Tony_Chapman]

Mike -- I'd be happy to get you a wooden stake. And, you can just keep it you don't need to borrow it.

I'm curious; I assume you've read the Tolhurst book that was updated in 2005?

[Mike_Cirba]

Ok...flashback.   

What just happened?

Damn...I thought that JFK thing was about the best thing I ever posted. 

[Mike_Cirba]

I'll see if I can't sum up the conversation that got blown away here...

I think there are a few open questions left.

1) If Merion secured 117 acres in November 1910 and that's what the Land Plan that month represented, they why does that Land Plan measure out at around 121-123 acres?   More importantly, why does the Merion that got bought in July 1910 measure 120 acres without the 3 acres of railroad land?   Are we in agreement that something happened between those months?

2) If change/growth to the course happened, which we assume it did, could it have happened anywhere else but along that Golf House Road boundary?

3) Since the triangle measure 4.8 acres, are we agreeing that it's impossible that this couldn't have been the 3 acres added between November 1910 and July 1911?

Any other issues out there?

[Tony_Chapman]

Jesus. I notice this about an hour ago and thought my computer was just acting up. I'll bet you it was Barker from the grave!! And, I agree with you on JFK.

I'll see if I can't sum up the conversation that got blown away here...

I think there are a few open questions left.

1) If Merion secured 117 acres in November 1910 and that's what the Land Plan that month represented, they why does that Land Plan measure out at around 121-123 acres?   More importantly, why does the Merion that got bought in July 1910 measure 120 acres without the 3 acres of railroad land?   Are we in agreement that something happened between those months?

2) If change/growth to the course happened, which we assume it did, could it have happened anywhere else but along that Golf House Road boundary? I'd be open to hearing suggestion on where it could have possibly been, but to me the road just changed spots.

3) Since the triangle measure 4.8 acres, are we agreeing that it's impossible that this couldn't have been the 3 acres added between November 1910 and July 1911? I'm not so sure. Maybe Bryan could give an idea of about how much 3 acres is?

Any other issues out there?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony,

I agree, with 300+ acres at their disposal, selecting only 117 had to be purpose specific.

Patrick,

Guess what?

It was not only purpose specific, it was site specific.

Mike, Guess what ?  It's the SAME THING

The northern and southern sections of what we know today as the "L" that makes up the predominant shape of the property and the bulk of the golf course....were the northern and southern sections of the Johnson Farm, along with all of their historic boundaries, except for the northwestern part, where it was determined to build real estate on the other side of an "approximate" boundary delineated by a road.

And Guess what?

They were 117 acres.

And Guess what else?

If we add the 3 acres of Railroad Land that Macdonald and Whigham recommended they buy that were right next to the clubhouse..

Amazingly...

we get to the 120 acre "requirement" that the Merion Site Committee recommended to the Board that would be necessary for the golf course on July 1, 1910.

Now, since you are so unbiased, impartial, and just seeking the true story here.

Why don't you go back to David and ask him what 120 acres he thinks the July 1, 1910 letter was talking about?

That's not my job/responsibility.
If you have a question for David, ask him.
You don't need me to be a surrogate.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

Are you thinking that the Francis Swap all happened within and above Area F?

Is that what you;re suggesting when you say that the triangle on the 1910 Land Plan is essentially the same acreage as the shorter more rectangular shape that got built?

Also, do you recall what we measured the 1910 Land Plan at?  I recall it didn't come out to 117 acres, but can't recall what people estimated.


p.s....I'd just add here that the reason Tom Paul didn't provide the metes and bounds is because they were provided to him by someone who has no interest in seeing his thousands of hours of research efforts appear on GCA, as he's no longer a member here. 

That's absurd.
The Metes and Bounds aren't proprietary information, they're part of the public domain.
Once TEPaul came into possession of them he, as an active participant who stated that he had them, had an obligation to disclose them instead of sending people on a wild goose chase to obtain them.

What possible reason would Wayne have for trying to keep them secret ?

I just thought before we continue to lambaste Tom that someone should make that fact known.

Mike,

Are you saying that TEPaul posted third party information without verifying it ?

And, TEPaul never posted them prior to Bryan coming into possession of them. 

[Bryan Izatt]

Arghhhh.  My brilliantly erudite responses to Mike have evaporated.  Guess I'll have to try to recreate them.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()