[Mike_Cirba]

"In the opinion of Mr. Macdonald, the best total length of a golf course, speaking roughly, is six thousand yards.   He quotes such well known authorities as Messrs. Low, Hutchinson, and Whigham, men who have been brought up in entirely different schools, to back him up in this statement.   They agree that bad as too short a course may be, too long a course is infinitely worse."

Sounds to me a bit like a rationalization for using a large portion of the property for instant revenue in the form of land sales!  

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

When Macdonald bought the 200+ acres, there was no golf course determined yet.

In fact, the Committee who had three months to LAY OUT THE COURSE had yet to be appointed.   They would be shortly and would include Macdonald, Travis, Whigham, and Emmett.

The "Holding Company" had been appointed, with the undertanding that the boundaries of the golf course were subject to change, but estimated to be about 110 acres.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Oh Patrick...you'd be quite incorrect about that.

I'd be willing to wager on that if you'll tell me who is advising you

Macdonald first bought the land, then created a plan for a large real estate component mixed with a golf course, and then laid out (designed) the golf course.

Not true.

I don't think that you and the party/ies advising you have understood the nuanced account.

Patrick,

Please do not help spread this sudden surge in Internet traffic between the west coast and midwest to northern New Jersey.   

I  have NOT sent an email, IM or had phone contact with David Moriarty in ages.
The same goes for Tom MacWood.
My communications with David have been on GCA.com, a public forum.
Can you say the same about your communications with your cohorts ?

However, I did receive a recent email from one of your co-conspiritors  
Wayne Morrisson advised me that he was disolving his "friendship" with me over my posts on GCA.com.

The absurdity of you now alleging/accussing me of being in contact with David and Tom MacWood is just another wild speculation of yours that has NO BASIS in fact.

Please cease and desist with conjecturing, you're terrible at it.

My lord, we don't want to bring down the entire east coast grid!   

I can assure you that if the grid goes down, it will have eminated and be confined to the Philly area  

[DMoriarty]

David,

When Macdonald bought the 200+ acres, there was no golf course determined yet.

In fact, the Committee who had three months to LAY OUT THE COURSE had yet to be appointed.   They would be shortly and would include Macdonald, Travis, Whigham, and Emmett.

The "Holding Company" had been appointed, with the undertanding that the boundaries of the golf course were subject to change, but estimated to be about 110 acres.

Really?  Was Charles Blair Macdonald lying when he described how he chose the land for the course?    I need an exact cite Mike, because I think you and Wayne are misreading this stuff.  

Surely you have a source don't you? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Do me a favor, stop responding to Mike on NGLA.

He doesn't understand the nuanced account and he's only trying to divert the focus away from Merion.
He's attempted this before, unsuccessfully.

If he wants to start a seperate thread I'd be happy to participate, but, I won't participate on NGLA on this thread.

Please do the same.

Thanks.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

I was saddened to hear of your recent communications with Wayne.   That sort of thing should never happen between people who share such a common passion and interest, and among people who have so much more to gain by nourishing their common bonds and mutual relationships than severing them.

That's why we need to work together to foster passionate debate, but also strive to call out those who cross the line.

I think if this thread has accomplished anything, we might all heed those principles better going forward.

All of that being said, you're still incorrect about your understanding of the NGLA land purchase and the purpose of the original course.

Sadly, other than one time playing golf with Wayne at the West course this spring, we've probably communicated a sum total of another 25 minutes since January, despite his co-conspirator label.  

[Mike_Cirba]

David/Patrick,

Would you like me to post the article from the day after Macdonald announced the purchase of the land for NGLA that described the entire venture in great detail?

It's remarkable, really...it's almost a doppelganger for the Merion articles.

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

It's an interesting analogy you make to NGLA. Did Macdonald have a complete routing and course design for that property before the land was bought? From his own descriptions it doesn't sound like it. From Macdonald's own descriptions it does sound like he and Whigam found some natural landforms that they thought were ideal for at least 3-4 of his template holes but it doesn't sound like the rest were routed or certainly finalized in any particular fashion before they bought that property. Very similar to his advice to MCC in June 1910 it seems like he just felt he had enough good land and landforms there to do eighteen really good holes that was his ultimate intention.

It seems like MCC went about it about the same way and on his advice----eg they bought enough land where they felt they COULD get eighteen good holes and coincidentally Macdonald's own letter to MCC that was only found AFTER this essay says precisely that. I will quote it again on here if someone doesn't believe it says that. And then with MCC the most interesting thing to me is they put Lloyd or Lloyd put himself in that interesting position in Dec, 1910 to move boundaries around after his purchase. That certainly seems like some pretty interesting insurance if the designers run into a problem somewhere and of course Francis tells us they did exactly that and Lloyd solved it instantly by moving boundaries. This thread should be reminded again that the solution to that problem resulted in and increase in the arcreage purchased from 117 to 120 and that was not the 3 acre railroad land as some of us for so long thought it was. They seem to have approved on 4/19/1911 the additional purchase of three more acres from what was originally slated as HDC residential real estate land to the west.

It just occured to me that a number of people on here seem to be fairly incredulous that anyone would actually buy a piece of property without basically finalizing a routing and design on it first but it seems to me that kind of thing happened and still happens all the time. I guess it's just a matter of feeling comfortable that you have enough to do something good with it once you purchase it.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

When Macdonald bought the 200+ acres, there was no golf course determined yet.

In fact, the Committee who had three months to LAY OUT THE COURSE had yet to be appointed.   They would be shortly and would include Macdonald, Travis, Whigham, and Emmett.

The "Holding Company" had been appointed, with the undertanding that the boundaries of the golf course were subject to change, but estimated to be about 110 acres.

Really?  Was Charles Blair Macdonald lying when he described how he chose the land for the course?    I need an exact cite Mike, because I think you and Wayne are misreading this stuff.  

I don't know David.

Were Hugh Wilson, Alan Wilson, the Merion Committee, A.W. Tillinghast, and everyone else alive during Hugh Wilson and Charles Macdonald's lifetimes who reported on these events LYING when they described WHO actually DESIGNED the Merion golf course?

It seems that there isn't much trust given on the site these days, or much inclination to take these men at their word.   

So, I think perhaps we should get a bit deeper into what CB Macdonald announced when he bought the NGLA property.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

That's fine.  I just hate to see such inaccurate information being portrayed as fact, especially more inaccurate information about NGLA and CBM.

Wayne Morrison latest classy email reminds me of another reason why a productive discussion will not take place.  If anyone dare agree with me about even the smallest matter, or even if they dare remain neutral, these guys come down on them hard, and off the website so as to remain out of  public view.   As you are finding out, dissension or even calls for reasonableness will not be tolerated.  

As for timelines, that is a good idea.  But I am already on record with a very detailed account of events.  There have been a few minor changes, and lots of additions, but not many that change the flow.   In contrast, TEPaul keeps promising to produce a detailed factual timeline, but none has been forthcoming.  

I think he and Wayne should get together and give us an timeline of all of the events, just the facts, in chronological order.  That I'd like to see.  I guarantee you that my critiques, if any, will be factually based.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Perhaps we should start with a reminder of what David wrote about the parallels between Merion and NGLA, copied from his essay;

"The committee did not request an approximate acreage, but “required” specific land measuring “nearly 120 acres.” As will be discussed below, this was because the routing had already been planned."

"Merion Purchased the Land they Needed for their Golf Course.
It has been widely assumed that Merion bought the land before Merion East was planned. To the contrary, Merion bought the land upon which their golf course had already been envisioned. Macdonald and Whigham had chosen the land for NGLA in a similar fashion. They first inspected the land and found the golf holes they wanted to build, and then they purchased that land. (BOLD Mine) In Chapter 10 of Scotland’s Gift, Macdonald explained that he had chosen the best land for golf from a much larger 405-acre parcel."

"The company agreed to sell us 205 acres, and we were permitted to locate it as to best serve our purpose. Again, we studied the contours earnestly; selecting those that would fit in naturally with the various classical holes I had in mind, after which we staked out the land we wanted."

"In all likelihood Merion also made the purchase based on where the golf holes fit best. The major difference between the approaches at Merion and NGLA? At NGLA, Macdonald and Whigham did not veer off the large parcel from which they were to choose the course, while Merion had to go outside a 300-acre tract to two additional parcels to suit their requirements."


Again, I'll ask...what is the total acreage of the golf course at NGLA?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

I know you've outlined your timeline of events, but, I was refering to doing it vis a vis a chronological graph.

Shivas,

You're right the carry is the carry, the measurements don't lie.

What's wild is Mike conveniently ignoring the carry requirements on # 17, compared to the far more benign carry requirement on # 16.

I honestly believe that he's so heavily invested in Wilson that he can't be objective on anything related to Wilson, including the huge sporting goods business he started.
And, I understand that.

Mike Cirba,

It is too bad that some have taken the discussion of events that occured about a century ago to such an extreme that they're willing to discard friendships and resort to vile name calling and personal attacks on each other.

I could see it happening if someone had an affair with someone else's wife, or beat up their daughter, but over events that occured a century ago ?

You wouldn't believe it if someone told you that's what happened, would you.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

I know you've outlined your timeline of events, but, I was refering to doing it vis a vis a chronological graph.

Shivas,

You're right the carry is the carry, the measurements don't lie.

What's wild is Mike conveniently ignoring the carry requirements on # 17, compared to the far more benign carry requirement on # 16.

I honestly believe that he's so heavily invested in Wilson that he can't be objective on anything related to Wilson, including the huge sporting goods business he started.
And, I understand that.

Mike Cirba,

It is too bad that some have taken the discussion of events that occured about a century ago to such an extreme that they're willing to discard friendships and resort to vile name calling and personal attacks on each other.

I could see it happening if someone had an affair with someone else's wife, or beat up their daughter, but over events that occured a century ago ?

You wouldn't believe it if someone told you that's what happened, would you.

Patrick,

This entire thing has gotten so far out of hand that's it's sad and unbelieveable.

To think that two great guys like you and Wayne have had a complete falling out brings me to tears to be honest with you.

To think that guys like me and Shivas, who share a lot in common in so many ways, are now at loggerheads and almost insults is ridiculous.

So, I have two choices here.

I can quit the discussion...

..or I can do whatever I can to prove my case, quickly and hopefully we can all move on.

I'll try the latter, at least for a bit longer, because I think that evidence has surfaced that might make the whole thing clear quite quickly.


The only problem I have with David's essay is that it's too far-reaching, and therefore needs to completely diminish Wilson's role to enhance Macdonald's.   I don't believe it was that type of zero-sum game, but because that's the immovable position he took and maintained, a whole bunch of us have taken equally ludicrous extreme positions.

But, back to trying to wrap this up...

Can you tell me the total golf course acreage at NGLA?

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

I think you asked me who "we" are on some post tonight around 6:14pm. Good question I guess. I would probably say its a couple of us here in Philadelphia who've been going around collecting material for Merion G.C. that they were not previously aware of about this early time. We've been doing it for years actually, not on this early time but primarily later particularly as regarding William Flynn. The best of it lately was what Wayne, Merion's historian and MCC member and Bill Dow, also a Merion and MCC member found at MCC less than a year ago. It is great stuff including Macdonald's letter to Lloyd in June 1910 about his visit, some valuable MCC meeting minutes and that really valuable Wilson committee report explaining all the numerous courses and plans they did in the winter and spring of 1911. That last item never found it's way into Merion's history book and it totally confirms what was said about Wilson and his committee designing the course. At the moment we got Lloyd's Dec. 19, 1910 deed today from Media and we have Yerkes looking through their files to see if they have a copy of Wilson and Committee's working topo survey maps they used to route and design the layout of the East course. If we find the latter it would really be awesome. So I guess there are really the three of us. Merion has had the same historian for close to forty years now but out of total deference to him there is no way I would dream of putting his name on this website after all this stuff that's been going on here over Merion in the last 5-6 years.

A lot of what we do we're doing for Merion itself. That may sound strange to some on here. I can understand that from the perspective of some on here but what goes on with and at Merion and its archives and architectural history and what goes on on this website's Discussion Forum is definitely not the same thing or synonymous, that's for sure.

Merion isn't going anywhere; it will always be HERE, and if some of you folks are so intensely interested in it and its architectural history I have every confidence in the world you can find its door, that is if you use your heads and commonsense properly first.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, if the topic is about Merion, why would you go searching for information that refutes what DaveM wrote about NGLA other than an attempt to discredit message by discrediting the messenger?

This is classic rhetorical goofiness.  "A once said that X is Y, therefore nothing A says about B can be believed."  Hogwash.

David,

I wasn't looking for anything but examples of who "laid out" what back then and what "laid out" and "layed out" meant, and someone was working with me in that effort.  THEY came across something that is frankly astounding!

I'm not trying to attack David and even called out my friend Tom Paul for unfairly doing so last night.   I'm trying to challenge David's contentions because I believe he is wrong in what he has written about Hugh Wilson's lack of involvement in the design and routing of the Merion East course in 1910-12.

But, it's more fundamental than that.

My colleague has found information that NGLA originated almost EXACTLY as Merion East did.   As a LAND PLAN, with a golf course and REAL ESTATE component, WITH A HOLDING COMPANY and  COMMITTEE TO "LAY OUT" THE GOLF COURSE, and all of that was executed and determined BEFORE THE GOLF COURSE AT NGLA WAS DESIGNED, and BEFORE THE BOUNDARIES FOR THE NGLA GOLF COURSE WERE ESTABLISHED.

My argument isn't with David, but with his argument.

Shivas,

Just read your last post.

I believe neither of us will cross that bound of decorum because both of us know each other and believe each other means well.

I don't believe the same boundary of trust and respect exists between some others here, but I think we should all try to rein in our (and their) worst impulses to set fire to the room.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

Please STOP responding to Mike's attempts to divert the focus away from the Merion issues.

Why hasn't anyone responded to the issue I raised about Sand Hills ?

Surely TEPaul, Mike Cirba and others are aware that C&C saw adjacent land that Dick Youngscap didn't own, and I believe he owned 8,000 acres, land that they felt they could put some superior holes on, and, they advised Dick Youngscap to buy that land, which he did.

TEPaul,

I don't understand why you won't respond to Bryan Izatt's request for the Metes and Bounds.

You have the information, yet you're deliberately witholding it.

I'm sure it makes many suspicious that you're witholding additional information that's relevant to this discussion, that perhaps supports Moriarty's position.

Your continued refusal to provide the requested information leaves little doubt in everyone's mind that
you'd present the Metes and Bounds if that information furthered your position.

Intellectual honesty HAS to be "THE" critical element in any discussion/debate/brawl.

C'mon, let's be gentlemen and fair in presenting your positions.

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

Man, you're lucky I love you or I'd be on the next plane to Chicago to kick your ass!!!  

Time for bed here, but perhaps this snippet from 1906 might sound familiar to some folks who have been following along here...

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

Methinks thou doth protest too much!  ;

On every single one of the relevant points, David's essay tried to use the NGLA example to prove his case that the golf course at Merion had been laid out before the land purchase, JUST LIKE HAPPENED AT NGLA ACCORDING TO HIS ESSAY.

NOW, it turns out that none of it was true.

NGLA first purchased their land of just over 200 acres.

Then, they came up with an estimated area for the golf course of 110 acres.

Then, they came up with a Real Estate scheme to sell off the rest at lower cost/higher value proposition.

ALL OF THIS WAS DONE BEFORE A SINGLE GOLF HOLE AT NGLA WAS DESIGNED, LAID OUT, LAYED OUT, CONSTRUCTED, ROUTED, OR WHATEVER TERM YOU WANT TO USE FOR WHAT WE ALL KNOW IS GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE!!!!

ALL of these points David contended just the opposite, and used them time and again to show us all how Merion first used Barker and/or Macdonald/Whigham to design their golf course, TO FIND AN EXACT NUMBER OF ACRES AND THEN BUY THEM SPECIFICALLY FOR GOLF, all based on what happened previously at NGLA.

Only, we now learn that just the opposite happened...that NGLA bought a bunch of acreage...held out against establishing any firm boundiaries UNTIL THEY ESTABLISHED THEIR GOLF COURSE...UNTIL THEY CREATED THEIR HOLDING COMPANY....UNTIL THEY CREATED THEIR COMMITTEE TO LAY OUT AND DESIGN A GOLF COURSE, and ONLY THEN then made the division of land between golf course and real estate.

JUST LIKE MERION!

The parallels are incredible, striking, and undeniable..

Your 10-second summary dismissal of long-held "FACTS" that were a HUGE PART of the evidence David presented make me think that you're not very even minded in your judgement.


By the way..the article IS MUCH LARGER..

Should I copy more???

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Regarding what you said in your last post to me. Sorry that some of you guys feel that way. We aren't hiding anything. As I said, most of what we're doing we're doing for Merion itself anyway. And again as I said above I guess I can understand that some of you think everything we ever do is for this Discussion Forum but it just isn't. To us Merion's sort of where everything starts anyway or certainly should. As far as measuring things from the Nov, 1910 to July 1911 timeframe, we just feel the best and most accurate and least controversial way to do it is just to present it all to the surveyors who unbelievably did all those metes and bounds a century ago (they are still very much in business) and let them take known points even done at different times and for different purposes and enclose it all any way we ask them to so we can see what the measurable results are and what they mean in the greater timeframe of all this.

Again, sorry some of you feel somebody's trying to hide something. Nothing of the kind and something tells me that explaining it to you again won't make any difference anyway certainly seeing it never has. Personally, I think this whole essay thing is dying down around here. It's just not taken seriously because of what it is which is not what it should be. I realize the author vociferously denies it all and keeps claiming his essay is the best and most accurate and honest thing since Swiss cheese. Unfortunately an author blaming the criticisms of his essay on everybody and anybody who criticizes it other than the piece itself generally doesn't exactly cut it in the real world. You know that. That's kind of the way it goes eventually with reasonable people who are pretty darned good with the details of the subject for starters. It was inevitable despite the author's constant shreeking at us around here that this is all about some attack on him or his work or his reputation or whatever.

We just don't think it was at all. It was only about what it said that was both wrong and incredibly transparent to us just why it was so wrong.

But this time of Merion's history never was explored in some other areas such as that development which Lloyd also seems to have arranged and managed throughout. At the moment we have a number of Merion members who live over there who are really getting into what we have found about that part of the history of the move to Ardmore. That's something I doubt many or any on here would be interested in anyway but that's some of the stuff we do anyway.

I guess I would say Merion is getting back to its own business and so are "we."

Good night, Patrick. Sleep tight!

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

You can't, five years into this debate, suddenly say that the main documented source disputing the historical record of Merion and the evidence "they" (Moriarty and MacWood) produced in this courtroom is suddenly non-existent and irrelevant just because things have gone south for their arguments..

Frankly, any reason any person on this website or on the planet Earth has for any doubt at all that Merion East was originally designed by Hugh Wilson and his committee is due to the publication of an essay by a member of this website a few years back.

So, to suddenly try to take it off of the evidence table because it's crumbling piece by piece as more actual evidence surfaces and is brought into the light of day is really a pretty transparent attempt at diversion that I can assure you isn't going to play well with the skeptical audience at home. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

C'mon, your smarter than that.

Merion's 16th has always been a 400+ yard hole, and probably was around 420 or so on a straight line when originally opened, even if the yardage was 433 listed in the 1916 US Amateur program.

Your 120 carry number is silly, because that assumes that players have hit a 300 yard drive with hickory shafts and gutta percha balls.

Probably most members drove on average around 220 or so.

That left a daunting full-carry attempt at carrying ALL of the quarry on their second, or...THANKS to the MAGIC OF STRATEGIC GOLF DESIGN, someone thoughtfully decided TO CREATE A FAIRWAY AROUND THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE QUARRY, which made it three-shot hole, but which also required much more WIDTH than someone likely anticipated for the hole at first.

The next hole, a par three from a cliff-top tee to a green well down below required about 170 yards of carry from the tee to reach reasonably maintained areas, but even there, they weren't going to lose a ball unless they duffed it off the tee.

Have you ever been to Merion Shivas, and seen the holes you're commenting on in this thread?

I ask because I don't think you would have posted what you just did had you seen those holes.

Shivas,

I've already addressed your points that have NOTHING TO DO WITH WHO DESIGNED MERION above.

If I'm an average member with a hickory shaft who punches it out there about 215 yards carry and roll in 1912, I'm faced with a 200+ yard carry over the quarry.

Heaven forbid I'm a woman or a senior.

While you, David, my friend, might be an awesome ball-striker who comes in with a wedge, I can tell you that while I've never driven well on 16, I've also never come into that green at less than 180 yards full carry to the center, USUALLY FROM DEEP ROUGH.

In any case, our personal reflectiions are meaningless here.

The real point is whether or not the designers of Merion in 1910-12 made a determination that there was no way a significant portion of their membership could carry the ball over 410-30 yards on their second shot or whether they needed an alternate route to play the hole in three shots.  From the perspective of our discussion, it's all about creating the proper and necessary dimension and WIDTH to accommodate an awesome golf hole.

I know as an "adrenaline golf" guy you find it hard to understand why they would need such a puss-out option, but I assure you that the creators and strategic designers of the golf course found it necessary and appropriate.

Remember, Shivas...DON'T RESPOND TO ANY OF THIS!   

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Seems that despite your good and sage advice, Tom will be keeping the metes and bounds at home in Merion, at least until Yerkes has assured him that they prove the acreages.  At least I think that's what he's saying.  I guess independent (that being me) vetting and confirmation is not something he wants to do.  I really don't understand the paranoia around measurements and areas.

It occurs to me, based on the quote from Tom below, that perhaps the 1910 deed doesn't have metes on it. He happily mentions metes on the 1911 deed and the 1920 survey, but on the the 1910 deed he just got, all he's mentioned is acreage.  Why am I so suspicious?     And, does he really need a surveyor to tell him the metes of the road are the same in 1911 and the 1920's.  You could tell just by reading them.  Unless of course the road moved. 

Assets useful for measurement:
                1. The Dec. 19, 1910 161 acre deed in which the land is tranfered to Horatio Gates Lloyd. I just got it today; Merion has never had it in their archives and now they will. The thing that makes this asset valuable to me is it does have the exact dimensions of the old Johnson farm's western boundary at the top of the "L"
                2. The July 21, 1911 deed in which Lloyd passes 120.1 acres of his 161 acre Dec. 21, 1910 deed back to the MCCGA (of which he is the chairman). This deed has the actual metes and bounds of Club House Road on it!!!
                3. A 1920s Yerkes survey of Merion East which also has the metes and bounds of Club House Road on it.

   

[Bryan Izatt]

"Does "dedicated" mean the land for the road is legally deeded to the Township?  Or is it only an agreement for access and maintenance by the Township while the land boundaries continue to run down the middle of the road in a deeded sense?"


Bryan:

I can't completely answer that but my understanding has always been "dedicated" means the owners of land that has roads created on it and then "dedicate" it to a township, county or state etc either turn that land over in the "dedication" or else create for the receiver a form of sort of permanent "easement" that does "run with the land" (survives challenges on real estate transfers).

On the other hand, I do know of a few roads around here that were "dedicated" and for whatever reasons were turned back over by a municipality or whatever to private hands. This almost always happens when landowners along a road like that want to close it for some reason as any kind of public thoroughfare.

And then of course you do realize that once a road is dedicated and public the entity controlling it, usually a government, can widen it and such through "eminent domain."

Through the years it has been recorded by Merion that they were concerned about eminent domain with Ardmore Ave being widened at some point and hurting something like their second hole.

Golf House Road has never been widened and I doubt it ever would be. It is certainly not a highly traveled road.

Tom,

Thanks for the information.  Do you know if Ardmore is/was also part of the Merion land, and it also was "dedicated" to the township?  Just curious.  I suspect it might have been, else why would they have designed three holes to play over it.

[Mike_Cirba]

I have to wonder if Walter Travis and Devereux Emmett got their fair share of credit for their original design of NGLA?

At that point, they both had quite a bit more design and construction experience than did Macdonald, who had designed a really not very good original layout at Chicago almost a decade prior.

But rather than knock Macdonald, who I think was an awesome man and great golf architect, I come to celebrate all of us now learning more together about the history of NGLA.

And to think I was almost chased from my own thread...   

This may be the most educational thread in the history of GCA...Patrick is right about that.

Thanks, Mystery Super Sleuth, wherever you may be. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Interesting how this next article goes into more detail and stresses the importance of "a committee of amateurs"...




You fellows still working on those metes and bounds?   Anyone know how many acres the NGLA course covers?

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