I see we have left behind all traces of a factual discussion behind and are sailing through fantasy land. Too bad. We were starting to get somewhere.
Mike Cirba,
I am trying to be civil but I am very frustrated that every time you TRY to represent my argument you are flat out WRONG. I wish you'd leave my argument to me. Is that too much to ask?
Mike,
When did David suggest they only bought land up to 65 yards above the quarry?
Jim,
David told us that the original 117 acres they purchased was included within the red lines;
- I NEVER TOLD YOU THAT, BECAUSE IT IS NOT TRUE! They WERE OFFERED the land within the red lines, but they did not accept the offer because THE LAST FIVE HOLES DID NOT FIT AS THEY HAD HOPED, so they negotiated the addition of the north corner and the gave up a bunch of land they did not need to the east. Then Lloyd bought the property. Then they refined the plan.
- So your theory about how they were squeezed at the mid-section of the course? It has nothing to do with my position, and isn't based on anything I have said. For one thing, it is based 1/2 on the "APPROXIMATE LOCATION OF THE ROAD" and 1/2 on the final location of the road. Nothing to do with me or my position at all. There was NO SQUEEZING in the land offered, they had more than enough horizontal room. I HAVE NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THEY SWAPPED FOR THE 14TH GREEN AND 15TH TEE AND FAIRWAY. Under my theory this is nonsensical. There was plenty of room for both these holes.
- And your theory about how under my theory HHB/M&W/Merion must have been fools to not have seen the potential of putting the tee back further? NOTHING TO DO WITH MY ACTUAL THEORY AT ALL. UNDER MY THEORY THAT LAND WAS NOT AVAILABLE until the FRANCIS LAND SWAP. Surely you do not fault them for not using land that WAS NOT AVAILABLE TO THEM.
- And your theory that Lloyd had already purchased the land when I THINK the swap occurred. Totally WRONG.
Et cetera.
You are arguing against demons of your own making, but you might find my actual positions a bit more challenging.
And by the way Mike, I do agree that they would have seen the value of this corner land early on. That is another reason to think the swap likely occurred in the Summer 1910, before the land was even purchased.
Your latest manipulations of the maps aren't really worth responding to, except to say that if they wanted curvy roads they could have curved the road at the south border of the college land west, over toward the actual border of the johnson farm property (which you have WAY to far West), then curved it south and curved it all the way down to Ardmore Ave. In other words, there were no roads yet and they could have done curvy roads in a number of different places. So curvy roads dont resolve anything.
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Jeff,
I understand what you are saying about the blasting, but I don't think your theory matches with the facts. Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to think that the swap occurred on the eve of the Board Meeting, April 19, 1911, and that the construction and blasting started a few days later. I don't think this is feasible for a these reasons, among others:
1. As I understand the fragments of the minutes brought forward thus far, M&W came down to re-inspect the property and decide upon the final routing on
April 6, and
M&W chose the routing that was presented to the board. NOTHING ABOUT CHANGING THIS ROUTING BETWEEN THE 6th and the 19th. And nothing to support the view that they were still having trouble fitting the holes AFTER CBM's second visit. So I see no support for putting the swap right before construction began.
2. We have no reason to believe that Lloyd had total control of the land. He took title ON BEHALF OF HDC. I don't think it is reasonable to think he could unilaterally change the borders instantly, without negotiating with the rest of HDC. Remember, they were likely planning as well, and would have had to have had a say about this.
3. I have no reason to believe that the quarry was blasted during primary construction by Merion. Francis did not write that Merion blasted the quarry. He wrote that the quarryman did. I have never read anything indicating that this happened under Merion's watch.
Do you agree that HDC may have blasted the rock to help get the sale?
Hypothetical Merion: '
We'll do the deal if 1) we get about 4 acres up in this corner; 2) you can keep and develop a big swath of land on the eastern border of the Johnson Farm; and 3) have your quarryman blast us a place for the 16th green so we can be sure it will work.''
Hypothetical HDC:
'We'll blast it day after tomorrow. Let's get this deal done.'Is this really less plausible that an override of the plan that CBM approved; unreported to the board; after a complicated renegotiation with the seller, then blasting a couple of days later?
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Jim, Please see my post above to Mike Cirba. He is misrepresenting my theory, and then shooting holes into his own misrepresentations.
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TEPaul,
I've read your above post, hoping you'd provide some of what you have promised, but I didn't find a single bit of new information or analysis in it. Was there any point to the post except to take another baseless shot at my essay?
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To All,
Is there any chance we can return to an actual factual discussion any time soon?
TEPaul has promised a FACTUAL refutation of my understanding of what happened, but none has been forthcoming.
Would anyone else like to see this?
Also, quite a while ago TEPaul promised a detailed Timeline with FACTS ONLY. That'd be helpful, wouldn't it?