[DMoriarty]

Mike, I have said a few times recently that it is pointless to discuss any of this with you because you are either unwilling or unable to have a discussion about Merion without constantly digressing into piles of unrelated righteous indignation and accusation.   Once again you prove me correct.

I'll check the hole number on Fox Hills reference, but I think you may have the wrong hole.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

As you know, the 1916 Program discusses a number of hole comparisons.

It seems the author mostly tried to make a connection to readers of the Brooklyn Eagle, as most of the holes mentioned are in the NYC areas.

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

David and I seem to have edited ourselves back to a more agreeable place.

Thanks for your judicial intervention.

[DMoriarty]

Mike, the reference to Fox Hills wasn't to the strategy of the hole but to the "broad hollow running up to the terraced green like the home hole at Fox Hills."

[Mike_Cirba]

I thought better of my previous post, and modified it within, what, a minute or two of posting it.   Man you guys are quick.   My point was expressing my disappointment that Mike cannot seem to get his arms around what a conversation actually looks like, and that everything I offer is met with his offense.  


Mike, the reference to Fox Hills wasn't to the strategy of the hole but to the "broad hollow running up to the terraced green like the home hole at Fox Hills."

David,

Agreed, and I'm almost agreeing with you that it's based on some of the principles of a Road Hole, but from the description provided to date, I have to also honestly say that there are any number of holes where similar strategies are employed that are not Road Holes so I think we need more conclusive evidence that this was the original intent.

What year is your information from, and does it mention Macdonald's influence?

[JESII]

In other words the shortest route to the green is across the corner of somebody's corn lot, with an open shot to the green if the carry is made, and a half dozen assorted shots back to the fairway if the ball falls short.  The golfer who plays safe by taking the dog-leg journey to the right toward the green will hardly reach his destination in two strokes...

What do you think is meant by "the dog-leg journey to the right"?

For what it's worth, the 6th green sits up on a terrace a full 5 or 5 feet above the approach...

[Bryan Izatt]

Jeff,

Do you sometimes feel like a voice in the wilderness.  You're shouting, but no one hears you.    So far this morning we have another 20 posts that do nothing to move the discussion along.  So juvenile.

I hate to ask, but is Bryan and DM now saying the land swap mentioned in TePaul's minutes are related to these small parcels that have been mapped?  They seem like separate transactions to me, based on the Francis comment about Golf House Road.  I'm not saying that.  I don't have enough information to say that.

Or, is it Bryan's contention that MCC picked up more land in the vicinity of No. 1 green that balanced out the land lost by 14 tee to green than previously thought?  No, I'm not making that contention.  I'm trying to get enough information to try to develop a contention about any of this.  The only thing I'd contend now is that the 1910 map seems inaccurate enough to make it questionable as a basis to make any contentions.

One last question - TePaul says he has the metes and bounds.  So, what is the date of that survey? Is it tied to the land purchase in November-December 1910?  Or to the final configuration in April 1911?  It seems there is no final configuration.  Land swaps seem to have gone on for years.Is there more than one survey?  All good questions.  Hopefully Tom will answer them.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bryan,

Based on your feelings about what you see as the inaccuracies of the 1910 map, do you think it's still worth me trying to locate the eastern perimeter up in the triangle on that Google earth diagram?

Thanks

[TEPaul]

"One last question - TePaul says he has the metes and bounds.  So, what is the date of that survey? Is it tied to the land purchase in November-December 1910?  Or to the final configuration in April 1911?  Is there more than one survey?

Jeffrey:

Basically both. I do have the metes and bounds or could get the last item I need easily enough. I think I finally figured this whole thing out and in a way I never expected to. I think the key to this whole puzzle is going to be the Johnson Farm and we can check the metes and bounds and dimensions of any boundary on it through 2-4/5 owners (2 being the Johnsons and H.Gates Lloyd, and 5 being the Johnsons, Fecht, Philadephia and Ardmore Land Co. HDC/Lloyd. The point is through all those transfers the boundaries apparently never changed---eg it was always 140.137 acres (so the metes and bounds and boundary dimensions of the old farm through all all those deeds should match. Add a couple of other items from minutes and reports and provable timeline items like the actual metes and bound of Club House Road after it got built  and compare that to the western border of the old Johnson Farm at the top of the "L" should explain all this.

I still want to check all the incrementals and totals but when you start analyzing what went on here acreage-wise with MCC planning from Nov, 1910 with MCC agreeing to buy 117 acres from HDC through Lloyd buying the land (161 acres, that total is the 140 acre Johnson Farm and the 21 acre Dallas Estate) to him passing it back to the MCC Golf Association Corporation (which he was the president of, by the way) at 120 acres they all seem to match up perfectly.

What I never considered that seriously is there always was a section of the old Johnson Farm that clearly was never considered for any golf course (when you see where it was you'll see why). That section can certainly easily be measured by the metes and bounds of that particular section of the farm from the old deeds metes and bounds through multiple owners (which again should all match).

I think that section was 23 acres. Take the 117 (amount of land MCC agreed to buy from HDC for $85,000) from the 140 Johnson Farm total and you have 23 acres. 

 117 (MCC agreed to buy)
+21 (Dallas Estate)
=138
-120 Lloyd turned over to MCCGA
=18

I think when Wilson and Committee began working on laying out courses there were 21 acres between the delineation of Club House Road on their survey maps and the boundary of the old Johnson Farm to the west between College and Ardmore Aves. I think that was squeezing them up in that existing triangle on their topo survey maps.

We may never be able to check that number with their old topo survey maps they used to design the course (because we don't have them) but we actually can check it the other way today (from existing Club House Road to the old Johnson Farm boundary on the west between College and Ardmore) I would bet a small amount at the moment that if a surveyor were to measure the present configuration of Club House Road (which we do have metes and bounds for) with the border of the old Johnson Farm to the west between College and Ardmore the would come up with 18.

And THAT is where they got the additional three acres they agree to pay $7,500 for at that 4/19/1911 board meeting via the Thompson resolution.

Of course there were no metes and bounds on that “Approximate Road Location” because there didn’t have to be, particularly since Lloyd had put himself in position to move boundary lines around between the proposed 117 acres agreed to and the land of HDC to the west. So there is no point measuring that entire road on the Nov. 15, 1910 plan today. All that’s important is what the dimensions of it were when that road location went on the Wilson Committee’s working topos. We know they had them because Wilson mentioned it to Russell Oakley on Feb, 1, 1911 and it certainly wasn’t that November 15, 1910 land plan. Actually their working topo (countour) surveys had letter sections on them because Wilson mentioned that to Oakley too.

I’m still trying to work this all out but if we did measure today, and we can easily with a surveryor, the metes and bounds of Club House Road and the dimensions of the old Johnson Farm to the west from College to Ardmore Ave, I think we will come up with 18 acres!

This was all a bit confusing for me to do backwards and forward using the events of the timeline from Nov, 1910 to July 1911 so let me check it all through again and get back to you Mr. Jeffrey Brauer, Esq, Sir!

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan:

The Smith, Eaton, Wheeler place is essentially the same land. It was just transfered over the years starting with Smith and eventually to Wheeler. Merion bought the remaining six acres from the Wheelers less than ten years ago. The reason for your confusion in the differences in the dimension from Ardmore Ave to the southern border of the Eaton land doesn't appear to be mistake on the 1910 plan but on the 1913 PRR map. It's pretty funny really. PRR Plat maps are not exactly official property dimensions for any kind of title, deed or mortgage use so if they make a mistake no title company is likely to pick it up because title companies don't use PRR Plat maps for land survey use for titles and deeds.   I understand.  I see what happened there. Whoever was typing the dimensions (off metes and bounds) of the Eaton to MCCGA and MCCGA to Eaton swap got the dimensions mixed up on both sides of the swap. That seems like a possibility.  But isn't the Title Insurance organization that Mike was quoting from a legal thing that would have needed to get the dimensions and locations accurate? Are you saying that they got both the dimensions and the locations wrong?  It seems obvious to me that the 79' x 197' piece was on the eastern end of the Eaton property, not on the southern side.  Due to that they actually made the entire ten acre property a lot narrower than it should be. I know this because we have a blueprint for Merion and the deeds reflecting this swap and you can see right on the dimensions of both sides that the PRR Plat map got them mixed up with the actual deeds. So that explains the big loss of the dimension from Ardmore Ave to the bottom of the Eaton land on the 1913 PRR Plat map. Is there any way that the blueprint can be posted on here.  And, the deeds.  They are public information are they not?  Could they be obtained by anyone from the land registry office?  It might help conclude the discussion.  The way to prove this obviously is to just go out behind #2 green and walk it off. That will show the 1913 PRR Plat map was considerably too short from Ardmore Ave to the southern border of the property. Of course you have to add in the dimension to the southern border of the other side of the swap back in 1912 but we have that too.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

Based on your feelings about what you see as the inaccuracies of the 1910 map, do you think it's still worth me trying to locate the eastern perimeter up in the triangle on that Google earth diagram?

Thanks

Sure, I think it would still be useful if you can put the metes and bounds for the eastern perimeter up in the triangle from a reliable survey from the 1910 era on the current Google map.  It would help further demonstrate the accuracy (or not) of the 1910 map.  Now if we can get Tom to post the maps, blueprints and surveys that he's working from, that would be even better.  But, until then, if you can place the boundary for me that'd be great.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bryan,

Given that we seem to be quickly reducing the number of accurate maps from which to work from, given that era, I'll try my best.

All,

Earlier, Tom Paul posted the following from the April 19th, 1911 MCC Board minutes;

"Mr. Thompson offered the following resolution:
                                     Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing the proposed layout of the new golf ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of the land already purchased for other land adjoining...Resolved that the board approve the exchange. Resolution approved"


There was some follow-up questioning of what came after "adjoining".   

I can tell you truthfully that the word "adjoining" is simply a modifier of "other land", and the next phrase goes right into the additional recommendation of a 3-acre purchase, which most of us have always assumed prior was the land near the clubhouse for $7,500.

It does not say, "adjoining Golf House Road", or "adjoining HDC land", or even "adjoining Ardmore Ave.".   

It says that the exchange was for unpurchased land adjoining land already purchased, nothing more or less.

I also find it odd that at least five months after the supposed completion of the Francis Land Swap prior to November 15th, 1911 and subsequent completion of the routing as per David's theory, the Merion Club would have saw fit to refer to it as "the proposed layout of the new golf gound".

That doesn't really make sense on any level.

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom,

"I’m still trying to work this all out but if we did measure today, and we can easily with a surveryor, the metes and bounds of Club House Road and the dimensions of the old Johnson Farm to the west from College to Ardmore Ave, I think we will come up with 18 acres!"

I just measured it, based on the location of the boundary in the 1908 atlas, and the current location of Golf House Road and it comes out to about 32+/- acres.  More head scratching.

[Dan Herrmann]

Seeing how the goal of Haverford Land Company was to sell homes and lots bordering a new world-class golf course, isn't it possible that they ceded to the needs of Merion when it came to land needed for the golf course?   And, by ceded, I mean more of a verbal, "gentleman's" type of agreement?

[DMoriarty]

mike

As you guys understand it, the Francis swap wasn't purchased land for unpurchased land adjoining purchased land.  It was purchased land for purchased land.

So the minutes are referring to a different swap.  One for unpurchased land adjoining purchased land.  Most likely the land above the road hole.



For anyone curious what tepaul has just figured out, look at the 1908 atlas.  The Johnson harm property wraps around the neighboring property to the WEST, and there is a rectangle of land set off by itself.

I don't have the maps handy bit I think at the tee it was owned by Philadelphia land co or some such thing.        

[TEPaul]

"It seems obvious to me that the 79' x 197' piece was on the eastern end of the Eaton property, not on the southern side."


Bryan:

The eastern piece (behind the 2nd green) was actually 47'x323'. The western section of the swap was 78'x197'. Both work out to 15,000sf and change and that's why they were a $1.00 "like kind" swap.

[TEPaul]

"I just measured it, based on the location of the boundary in the 1908 atlas, and the current location of Golf House Road and it comes out to about 32+/- acres.  More head scratching.

Bryan:

I hope you are willing to admit that these kinds of measurements are always going to be a lot more accurate off of the old metes and bounds of actual property lines done specifically by professional surveyors for specific properties for deeds and titles and mortgages for the actual property owners and such then they will be off of Google Earth today or even PRR Plat maps by GOLFCLUBATLASERS. You just saw how badly the 1913 PRR Plat map, for instance, screwed up their dimenions on that Smith/Eaton/Wheeler land. 

[TEPaul]

I just wanted to say to all something about this whole MCC/HDC/Francis land swap thing I just mentioned to Kirk Gill on the phone.

You know that famous remark by Deep Throat to Woodward and Bernstein during Watergate?----"Follow the Money!"

The deeper and deeper I get into this whole subject about MCC/HDC/Francis land swap/Allgates/Drexel Morgan et al my recommendation to you guys interested would be:

"Follow H. Gates Lloyd!"


I have a sneaking suspicion if his club---MCC, didn't agree to come along with him on this one he would've probably just started another one right there and today there may be something very similar to Merion East there with another name. There is actually a remarkable analogy to this I just realized yesterday and right nearby.

Matter of fact, had that happened (MCC decided not to go there after what he arranged) he probably would've gotten Charlie to do it for him for another club. 

I can just see Charlie who wrote that June 1910 letter about he and Whigam's impression of the property to Lloyd, by the way, and not Griscom (who got him there) or Lesley, the chairman of the Search Committee saying; "But Horatio, this is sort of a hobby to me, I'm an "amateur/sportsman" like you are and I actually have a day job" and Horatio saying to Charlie: "Yeah, I know, you're an "amateur/sportsman just like me and just like me you have a day job. And I also know you're a floor broker on Wall Street with Barney & Co. and with my connections in that world if you want to keep your day job you better damn good and well design me a golf course here at Ardmore whether you charge me for it or not! Furthermore, I want an Alps hole, and an Eden, and a Redan, and a Road Hole, and a Cape Hole, and a Biarritz, and a.....ah, aaah, and if it isn't better than even NGLA you're ass will be grass, Macdonald!"

[DMoriarty]

I don’t have the minutes or the letters or the other information that ought to provide the answer, but here is what I think happened (with some of the more controversial details left out and some of the facts as I know them in bold.] 

1.   HCD offered Merion 100 acres.
2.   This wasn’t enough land, so the 21 acre Dallas estate was also considered.
3.   Merion fit the first 13 holes on this land, but was having trouble with the final 5, so they acquired land measuring about 130 x 190 yards – the site of the current 16th tee and 15th green and gave up the land on which the fine homes on Golf House Road now sit.   



This map is not meant to be exact (for example it ignores the small swaps we have been discussing), but is meant to reflect generally what I think happened.   

a.  The red area represents approximately what I think Merion was offered to use for their course.   It consists of the width of the “Johnson farm” below the south end of the Haverford college rectangle.    This tract may measure a bit more than 100 acres, but I think that Merion was offered 100 acres out of this tract, or was offered the eastern 100 acres.
b.  The blue represents an approximation of the Dallas estate, 21 acres.
c.  The land Merion gave up is that part of the red that was not used for the golf course.  They didn’t need the land for the golf course, and why buy land that they didn’t need?   
d.  So under this theory the swap was NOT equal acres for equal acres, but Francis did not say it was. 

[DMoriarty]

Actually, while exact measures are difficult, I've just measured the red area and I think that if not exact, the red area is pretty close to 100 acres.

Bryan, do you mind independently measuring the portion of the Johnson farm property that I have marked in red?  If so, thanks in advance.
Do you understand how I came up with this shape or do you need more information? 

[Bryan Izatt]

"It seems obvious to me that the 79' x 197' piece was on the eastern end of the Eaton property, not on the southern side."


Bryan:

The eastern piece (behind the 2nd green) was actually 47'x323'. The western section of the swap was 78'x197'. Both work out to 15,000sf and change and that's why they were a $1.00 "like kind" swap.

Again, here's the quote:

"10-22-1912
Charles Carver, Jr. sold .352 acres to Alfred B. Eaton who then conveyed the property to the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association 78’x197’ along the south border of the Wheeler property in exchange for a 47’x323’ strip of ground west of the 2nd green".

I agree the acreage is the same.  The 47’x323’ strip of ground west of the 2nd green presumably is therefore on the east side of the Wheeler property.  Are you saying that the 47' dimension is east-west and the 323' dimension is north-south?  And where do you locate the 78 x197 piece.  The quote attributes it to the south border.  You attribute it to the western section (of what?).  According to my overlay the RR Plat (which you claim is erroneous) it looks like below.  The blue area just happens to be 78' x 197'.  The red area is not 47' x 323'.

[Bryan Izatt]

"I just measured it, based on the location of the boundary in the 1908 atlas, and the current location of Golf House Road and it comes out to about 32+/- acres.  More head scratching.

Bryan:

I hope you are willing to admit that these kinds of measurements are always going to be a lot more accurate off of the old metes and bounds of actual property lines done specifically by professional surveyors for specific properties for deeds and titles and mortgages for the actual property owners and such then they will be off of Google Earth today or even PRR Plat maps by GOLFCLUBATLASERS. You just saw how badly the 1913 PRR Plat map, for instance, screwed up their dimenions on that Smith/Eaton/Wheeler land. 

Sure, I agree they are not as accurate as professional surveyors, but, I also don't believe that they are wrong by almost 100% (from 18 to 32 acres).

[DMoriarty]

In other words the shortest route to the green is across the corner of somebody's corn lot, with an open shot to the green if the carry is made, and a half dozen assorted shots back to the fairway if the ball falls short.  The golfer who plays safe by taking the dog-leg journey to the right toward the green will hardly reach his destination in two strokes...

What do you think is meant by "the dog-leg journey to the right"?

For what it's worth, the 6th green sits up on a terrace a full 5 or 5 feet above the approach...

Jim,  I think that they meant that a drive left turns the hole in to a dogleg to the right, and makes the second shot much longer and more dangerous.   Strange language though.

Thanks for the information regarding the extent of the terrace.  Did you mean "4 or 5 feet?"

[Bryan Izatt]

Actually, while exact measures are difficult, I've just measured the red area and I think that if not exact, the red area is pretty close to 100 acres.

Bryan, do you mind independently measuring the portion of the Johnson farm property that I have marked in red?  If so, thanks in advance.
Do you understand how I came up with this shape or do you need more information? 

Can't do it now - gotta go golf, but I will later.  What's the attribution for the 100 acre factoid?  I don't recall that number, but then there are so many numbers out there on this movable feast.  Also what are you suggesting was done with the Johnson Farm north of the red area and west of the green triangle?  There's a few acres up there that you haven't marked off.  Why is it not in your considerations.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

A picture is worth a thousand words. That illustrates your theory and makes a little bit of sense, but for one thing - I think I could easily fit the last five holes in the land in red.  14 could parallel 1, 15 could be a long par 5 along the west border, and 16 and 17 would be a 3 and a 4 leading back to the same 18th.  Of course, I don't recall the topo that well. 

But, the general idea could make sense if the west boundary was further east about in line with the north end of Club House Drive and ending at Haverford College south property line.  Draw a line straight south from middle of the start of 15 Fw and the triangle and maybe some land by 1 green would about balance the land given up.

If this scheme is correct, maybe MCC should have bought the triangle and kept the land west and they would have had their practice range right from the get go!

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