News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3875 on: March 07, 2010, 12:50:03 AM »
Jim,

If memory serves, some piece of the 1st green is west of the original western border of the Johnson Farm.   That's what I was suggesting might play into the total acreage puzzle folks were trying to solve back then, but I'm not sure it's even a 1/4 acre in total that was involved.

I also was surprised reading the Thompson Resolution again that they referred to swapping "land already purchased" in exchange for "land adjacent" in April 1911 when they didn't actually purchase any of the land until July 1911, which led me to wonder if they were referring to the 117 acres "secured", which to my knowledge didn't have a fixed northwestern boundary (along what is today Golf House Road) before then (leading to the question of then how could they tell which part of it they previously "purchased" versus which part they didn't), or the 161 acres (the entire 140 acre Johnson Farm and 21 acre Dallas Estate) purchased by Lloyd under Cuyler's advise.   Know what I mean?

I'm not sure I do, but I thought I'd solicit other opinions.  

« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 01:18:34 AM by Mike Cirba »

TEPaul

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3876 on: March 07, 2010, 09:02:13 AM »
"Know what I mean?"

I know exactly what you mean.



"I'm not sure I do, but I thought I'd solicit other opinions."



It isn't as hard to follow the entire progression of real estate negotiations and events (deeds and agreements---eg there was no actual formal real estate buyer/seller "contract" as we know them today that I'm aware of, and there very well may've been a logical reason for that in 1910 and 1911---eg they were executed by lawyers and not independent real estate sales brokers companies. In the case of MCC and HDC it was merely an offer by letter from the representative and an acceptance of that offer by letter by the president of MCC) from Nov. 1910 to July 1911 as some apparently think it is, even though it's not the easiest "cut and dried" real estate over-all transaction I've ever seen.

There is plenty of good supporting documentation for everything they did and the reasons why they did it the way they did it along the way (from Nov. 1910 to July 1911.

In my opinion, the real problem with this whole chain of events is it got complicated on here and in understanding on here when some tried to move actual events backwards in time and insert some people and events into that earlier timespan without any supporting evidence at all for them. Those people just engaged in real speculation with no actual material or documentary support for it, and worse yet some even tried to make it look like fact and even sound like fact as some portions of the essay "The Missing Faces of Merion" did. I will simply cut and paste portions of that essay on here and you all can see how and where that was done. When that is done against this timeline if anyone doesn't recognize how and where that was done I would be extremely surprised.

I'll answer all your questions in the above post later as I have pretty much everything in the entire progression (via Wayne M and Merion) with the exception of one missing "asset"----ie that topographical contour survey map the Wilson Committee worked off of to create the routing and design particularly from Jan. 1911 on.  To date that hasn't been found but if it evere is it will fill in the last piece of the puzzle the dimensions (and complete a measurable whole) along that Northwest border from College to Ardmore Ave.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 09:20:58 AM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3877 on: March 07, 2010, 10:57:58 AM »
Sounds good Tom...I'll look forward to it.

TEPaul

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3878 on: March 07, 2010, 11:58:41 AM »
1. "If memory serves, some piece of the 1st green is west of the original western border of the Johnson Farm."



Don't know about the actual 1st green itself but that would be right regarding some portions of the 1st hole (particularly down at its green-end next to the contiguity of Golf House Rd and Ardmore Ave), and it is completely provable by the precise measurements of a few of the extant "assets" within Merion GC's archives such as the survey maps and their metes and bounds.



2. "That's what I was suggesting might play into the total acreage puzzle folks were trying to solve back then, but I'm not sure it's even a 1/4 acre in total that was involved."



The actual acreage involved in that overlap of the old Johnson Farm (which HGL owned on April 1911) northwest boundary and the HDC land to the west of it in that area is likely quite small. A 1/4 acre probably ain't a bad ball-park guess.



3. "I also was surprised reading the Thompson Resolution again that they referred to swapping "land already purchased" in exchange for "land adjacent" in April 1911 when they didn't actually purchase any of the land until July 1911,...."



To understand that better and not be so surprised by it you simply need to appreciate better how the club (MCC) in its administrations and board meeting and minutes AT THAT TIME (April 19, 1911) was dealing with the situation along that all important boundary from College to Ardmore Ave. Firstly, you need to appreciate that Horatio Gates Lloyd already owned that land at that time, with the exception of that small piece down by the 1st green, because in Dec. 1910 he had bought for himself (as the president of the simultaneously (Dec, 1911) formed State and County incorporated "Merion Cricket Club Golf Association Corporation" the entire Johnson Farm (140 acres) that included all the land that the golf course needed as routed and designed and presented for approval at that very same (as the Thompson Resolution) April 19, 1911 board meeting.

I mean I suppose the secretary of that April, 1911 MCC Board meeting could have written the minutes a bit clearer and more explanatory for us today such as:

"….land already purchased by Horatio Gates Lloyd for the club in his capacity as the president of the recently formed and incorporated "Merion Cricket Club Golf Association Corporation" that will shortly (July 1911) take title to said land that will heretofore include land in exchange for land adjacent and to the west of the boundary line on our topographical survey map our Wilson Committee has recently routed and designed a course on (with the exception of a portion of land in the northwest corner that was necessary to complete the routing of the last five holes via a solution created by our member/engineer on the Wilson Committee, Richard Francis, who got permission for this particular and herein referred to land swap from Horatio Gates Lloyd after a bicycle ride to Lloyd's house in the middle of a recent night in which he was somewhat surprised to see that Mr. Horation Gates Lloyd had actually not quite yet gone to bed even though it was nearlng of just after midnight").

But they did not write the board meetings that way apparently because they all knew each other very well and knew well what they had all been doing for the club in this project and did not contemplate the necessity of so fully having to explain all the details of all this to a bunch of golf architecture fixated maniacs, some of which have never even been to Merion and know no one there, and a few of which seem to be dedicatedly trying to distort and revise Merion’s architectural history, who populate an Internet website close to a century after that particular board meeting! It is even possible that those club governors/board members did not even contemplate the prospect of the Internet on April 19, 1911, but having come to know, through on-going research, the likes of Horatio Gates Lloyd as a fully participating partner in the massively powerful financial engines of that time, Drexel Co. and Morgan Co which at the time were virtual sister companies with basically interchangeable partners to some extent, I would not put it past Horatio Gates Lloyd (or HOR to his closest friends and compatriots in the know) of having already thought of and began planning for the INTERNET.

Whew! Allow me to take a rest for a while and I’ll get to answering and explaining the rest of your queries in that post a bit later. But seriously this stuff is not as hard to understand as some apparently think it is and others are trying to make it on this website!



 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 01:46:08 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3879 on: March 07, 2010, 12:33:33 PM »
Tom

With you sio far...don't stop now.

Archie says hi.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3880 on: March 07, 2010, 01:55:19 PM »
Tom,

I hate to be a pain in the ass, but what exactly do you think the substance of your post #3986 is?

You're threatening to lay out the entire chain of events that prove the only thing the Thompson Resolution could possible be is a reconfiguring of, the yet to be configured, Golf House Rd. including the requisite purchase of three acres due to the precise (re)configuration...but all you really said was that the portion of the farm west of the Johnson Farm boundary was about 1/4 acre.


TEPaul

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3881 on: March 07, 2010, 02:01:14 PM »
Fristly, relax. Give me some time to finish it. I have other and more important issues to attend to in the meantime like the genetic originations of things like Devil's Asshole bunkers as well as a conference call with my lawyers about suing MacWood for the unauthorized use of a copy of private property on an world-wide Internet website.  :-\ ;)

Secondly, let's see if it clears anything up for Cirba as he asked the question and it was part of his post I answered. If it doesn't clear something up for him in that post he can certainly explain why.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 02:16:40 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3882 on: March 07, 2010, 05:39:02 PM »
Tom,

Thanks for the reply.

I think the fact Lloyd owned the land, and particularly if he owned the land for MCGA, that I'm still very perplexed by the language.

Couldn't...shouldn't they have said something as simple as "we needed 120 acres instead of 117 so Mr. Lloyd was of course agreeable to that."?

Thanks for your thoughts...
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 06:13:59 PM by Mike Cirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3883 on: March 08, 2010, 11:33:34 AM »
Apr. 19,1911  - Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing the proposed layout of the new golf ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of the land already purchased for other land adjoining...Resolved that the board approve the exchange...and the purchase of 3 acres additional for $7,500.   - Thompson Resolution


Let me see if I can express what I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around...

In November of 1910 Merion reported that they "secured" 117 acres for their new golf course, which is believed to have been made up from some subset of the 140 acre Johnson Farm and all of the 21 acre Dallas Estate (totals rounded), so essentially they would have been using some at the time hypothetical 96 acres of the Johnson Farm.

In December of 1910 H.G. Lloyd, purportedly acting on the legal advise of one Mr. Cuyler, and acting in the interests of the Cricket Club, purchases the entire 161 acres, made up of the entire 140 acre Johnson Farm, and the 21 acre Dallas Estate.

So, presumably, at this time, the 117 acres of Merion secured land rest in whole within the 161 acres of Lloyd purchased land.  One could infer that Lloyd would have bought up ALL land under consideration for golf course usage at that time, correct?

One could also infer at that time that the 117 acres was not precisely fixed, somewhat variable in terms of at least one of the boundaries, else why would Lloyd have purchased the whole shebang?   In fact, the Cuyler letter (which we haven't seen here) apparently tells Lloyd that since there is no definite course yet, he should make this purchase which would allow him the flexibility to move and fix those boundaries as the course got routed and finalized.

So far, so good?   I think I'm there.

We also know that when all was said and done, in July 1911, Merion purchased 120 acres, not 117, so there is a net of three acres purchased beyond what they secured.

In fact, the Thompson Resolution above seems to mention those three acres that need to be added and even affixes a price for them of $7500 (which was vastly higher per acre than what the acreage of the land they previously secured, which was $726.50 per acre).   There is no formal record of this real estate transaction...Was this $7500 simply due compensation to Lloyd for having taken the capital risk of purchase of all of that land before the course and club purchase was finalized?

But most confusingly, the Thompson Resolution states that the proposed, recommended golf layout requires also the exchange of "land already purchased" for "other land adjoining".  

Read strictly, I would see this as land outside of the boundaries of the 161-acres that Lloyd already purchased.  

Would we think this "exchange" netted to 3 additional acres needed for the course?   That wouldn't be an "exchange", by definition, would it, or do we think the 3 acres required was in excess of what MCC was able to "give back"?

Adding even more complexity to the mix, the "3 acres" shows up in two places.   There are the 3 acres of Railroad Land that Merion leased (making the total original golf course 123 acres), and then there is the 3 acre differential between the original 117 acres "secured" and the 120 acres they eventually purchased.

I guess the bottom line question is this;

If the original 117 acres Merion "secured" in November 1910 was not fixed, but instead meant a "to not exceed" agreement with HDC, and those 117 acres were merely a hypothetical subset of the overall 161 acres Lloyd purchased a month later, then why the need to "exchange" land at all?

Why not just say, "as we laid out the course, we found our optimum plan required 120 acres instead of 117, and ask that the additional expenditure be approved."

Why the "exchange" language?

Thanks for any thoughts and ideas...


« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 11:39:25 AM by Mike Cirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3884 on: March 08, 2010, 01:07:55 PM »
Mike,

It was both theoretical and changeable, but yet temporarily fixed via that November land plan.  If that was considered a "working property line" as we have discussed until the final routing came back, then would they not have had to both trade land for other already secured (along Golf House Road) AND bought three new acres (also along the road) to make their plan work?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3885 on: March 08, 2010, 01:22:04 PM »
Jeff,

Thanks for your input...

I think the only sticking point there is that the Nov 1910 Land Plan measured out to approx 124 acres, if memory serves.

I guess one could say that is why the road is marked as "approximate", though, correct?

 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 02:26:13 PM by Mike Cirba »

TEPaul

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3886 on: March 08, 2010, 02:22:03 PM »
"But most confusingly, the Thompson Resolution states that the proposed, recommended golf layout requires also the exchange of "land already purchased" for "other land adjoining"."




By the way, that is essentially the general wording and idea that Richard Francis used in his story about how he resolved the 15th green and the 16th hole and the last five holes, in fact.  ;)

"The idea was this: We had some property west of the present course which did not fit in at all with any golf layout. Perhaps we could swap it for some we could use?
          "Mr. Lloyd agreed. The land now covered by fine homes along Golf House Road was exchanged for land about 130 yards wide by 190 yards long---the present location of the 15th green and the 16th tee."  





"Read strictly, I would see this as land outside of the boundaries of the 161-acres that Lloyd already purchased."


I wouldn't, other than a small bit of land down around the 1st hole that clearly was not within the 161 acres Lloyd bought or within the western boundary of the old Johnson Farm at the top of the L.  
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 02:35:33 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3887 on: March 08, 2010, 02:27:47 PM »
Again (and again and again ;)), I think the only "asset" that will completely resolve this matter is one of those topographical survey maps that the Wilson Committee was working on in 1911 to design (and route) the golf course. The very same ones that Wilson mentioned and sent to Oakley in Feb, 1911, probably the very same ones Wilson's committee did five final plans on and the same ones that Richard Francis mentioned in his story that he spent many hours going over on his drawing board.

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3888 on: March 08, 2010, 02:31:00 PM »
Tom,

It sure would simplify things in my mind if that Nov 1910 Land Plan actually measured out at the 117 acres it purported to represent.  

Then we could do our puts and gets and it would be self-evident.

Sorry if this gets tiresome.   I just wanted to see if going back over the evidence months later with a clear mind revealed any different angles or new ways of looking at the existing evidence that would be more iron-clad.

I guess the one fact we can derive is that the course went from 117 acres secured in 11/1910 to 120 acres recommended for purchase in 04/1911.

It would be difficult to imagine what or where that was if not the Francis Land Swap.     What's more, I think it would be difficult to imagine that swap consisting of exchanging 1.8 acres of unused land somewhere they already owned for 4.8 acres of "triangle" land to net to 3 acres purchased.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 02:35:15 PM by Mike Cirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3889 on: March 08, 2010, 02:46:34 PM »
What's more, I think it would be difficult to imagine that swap consisting of exchanging 1.8 acres of unused land somewhere they already owned for 4.8 acres of "triangle" land to net to 3 acres purchased.




What's the 4.8 acre triangle? Is that the current dimensions?

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3890 on: March 08, 2010, 02:53:13 PM »
Jim,

Yes, the part of the triangle in use today is 4.8 acres out of what was a 10.5 acre rectangle above Haverford College line on the Johnson Farm, as measured some time back by Bryan Izatt.  

Whatcha thinking?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 03:02:36 PM by Mike Cirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3891 on: March 08, 2010, 03:08:57 PM »
I've always believed that the Francis idea had to be what he said it was; the area where the 15th green and 16th tee are.

Alot of the other stuff is pretty hazy to me right now, but the notion that they had to re-configure the S-shape from the November drawing made no sense since the drawing couldn't have been an accurate starting point anyway...

TEPaul

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3892 on: March 08, 2010, 03:14:17 PM »
"Tom,
It sure would simplify things in my mind if that Nov 1910 Land Plan actually measured out at the 117 acres it purported to represent."


Mike:

I realize that but we can't do that because it just isn't the way MCC went about it with HDC and it wasn't the way it happened in Nov 1910; matter of fact there would not even be a property measurement (metes and bounds) enclosing the ENTIRE boundary and there most certainly was no actual transfer of property between the parties (MCC and HDC) until MCC (MCCGA) actually bought the 120.01 acres on July 19, 1911.

What they referred to in Nov. 1910 as "117 acres secured" was nothing more than an "agreement" (what we today would refer to as an "agreement in principle" reflected in writing) between two parties using two letters between the representatives of those two parties----eg the representative for HDC (Nicholson) who made an offer to MCC to sell MCC 117 acres for a fixed price ($85,000) within a certain date (the beginning of Dec. 1910). The representative for MCC was club president Evans who responded by letter accepting that offer (after board approval of the offer) a few days later.

There was no sales agreement that specifically described or even reflected the exact outside boundaries of all the land considered, even though it was clearly obvious to all what the vast majority of it was going to be for a whole host of reasons:

1. Everyone knew where the Johnson farmhouse was the future clubhouse.
2. The vast majority of the outside boundary of the property wasn't even owned by HDC.
3. The only contiguous boundary with the future golf course (basically a large portion of the Johnson Farm and the Dallas Estate) and HDC land was along what would become Golf House Road and along Ardmore Ave across from the 2nd hole and everyone knew that  would not logically be used for the golf course (anyone considering that today could tell the same thing).  
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 03:17:35 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3893 on: March 08, 2010, 03:17:31 PM »
Jim,

I admit that I don't take Francis literally, simply because I can't make the math work during the time in question, as well as knowing that the minutes reflect a lot of design activity between March and April of 1912, during which period we know the acreages they told us they were working with.

Given that Francis also said the first 13 holes were already in place and they were struggling with the last five, I have to think it was within this period.

I'm really trying to view this mathematically though, and examining things like the wording of the Thompson Resolution to see if we missed anything back then.

TEPaul

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3894 on: March 08, 2010, 03:37:10 PM »
"I just wanted to see if going back over the evidence months later with a clear mind revealed any different angles or new ways of looking at the existing evidence that would be more iron-clad."


For me all this is a lot easier to view and consider MONTHS LATER given all the club has on it with the single exception of that 117 acre topo survey map they were using to route and design the course. What complicated it for me during this thread and the others and probably massively complicated it for everyone else on here was when a whole bunch of hypothetical events and interpretations started getting shoved around in the over-all timeline of this thing which actually has a remarkable amount of supporting documentation for something of this age.

TEPaul

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3895 on: March 08, 2010, 04:54:34 PM »
"We also know that when all was said and done, in July 1911, Merion purchased 120 acres, not 117, so there is a net of three acres purchased beyond what they secured.

In fact, the Thompson Resolution above seems to mention those three acres that need to be added and even affixes a price for them of $7500 (which was vastly higher per acre than what the acreage of the land they previously secured, which was $726.50 per acre).   There is no formal record of this real estate transaction...Was this $7500 simply due compensation to Lloyd for having taken the capital risk of purchase of all of that land before the course and club purchase was finalized?"




You're right, when the land for the course was legally transfered from Lloyd to Rothwell and Rothwell to MCCGA all on the same day (July 19, 1911) it was for 120.01 acres rather than the 117 acres that was part of the Nov, 1910 agreement between MCC and HDC and it was also for the same price as 117 acres in the Nov. 1910 agreement----$85,000!

So what about the additional $7,500 for the purchase of the additional three acres? Good question. I would say MCCGA settled that up with Lloyd somehow since essentially he was likely the one who had owned it for seven months as part of his 161 acres. That wouldn't have been hard since Lloyd was also the president of the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association Corporation that bought the land and leased it back to MCC on a 99 year lease. Lloyd arguably had a major equity interest in HDC's land throughout most all of this period as well.

The actual transfer of title to that additional three acres and including the apparent exchange with HDC (down around the first hole) would probably not be formally reflected until Club House Road was built or surveyed as the western boundary of Merion GC has metes and bounds that run right along the middle of that road from Ardmore to College Ave. We have that final survey, by the way, reflecting the metes and bounds up the middle of Golf House Road.






"But most confusingly, the Thompson Resolution states that the proposed, recommended golf layout requires also the exchange of "land already purchased" for "other land adjoining"."




Again, that would probably not be finalized and formally reflected by boundary until Golf House Road was built or surveyed  

« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 05:15:53 PM by TEPaul »

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3896 on: March 08, 2010, 04:59:13 PM »
oops!  miss-clicked. I pledged to never click on another Merion thread. My mistake. Doesn't count. Didn't mean it. My bad, etc.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3897 on: March 08, 2010, 10:17:28 PM »
Jim,

Too funny!!!

Thanks for misclicking.  JY. ;D

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3898 on: March 28, 2010, 11:12:17 AM »
Here are some land transactions reported in late 1910 and early 1911 in the paper Chester Times.

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back