[Mike_Cirba]

I'll go slow.

1) Oakley says the sample marked section B on the blueprint is pretty stiff clay and the lime is badly lacking

2) He suggests a treatment of manure and lime

3) But not now, it would not be practicable this time of year to use manure on your 'fair greens'

4) Section B is 'fair green' aka fairway

Tom,

You're going slow, but i'm still not making that trip.

Is this the letter?

[Tom MacWood]

Is that the one where Oakley says section B was heavy clay and the best way to treat heavy clay is manure & lime though not on the fair green this time of year and so he recommends waiting until the fall?

Do you know if Wilson was on the green committee of the old course?

Do you know when he was named chairman of green committee at the new course?

[Mike_Cirba]

Is that the one where Oakley says section B was heavy clay and the best way to treat heavy clay is manure & lime though not on the fair green this time of year and so he recommends waiting until the fall?

Do you know if Wilson was on the green committee of the old course?

Do you know when he was named chairman of green committee at the new course?

Ok, Tom...I have my running shoes on so let's see if I can make that leap...

First Sentence - Oakley has examined the soils sent by Russell of Merion for Wilson

Second Sentence - Tells Wilson again that it only possible to make some general suggestions based on this type of analysis.

Third Sentence - Basically says that even his analysis it's of liimited value, it's probably as good to determine a course of treatment for soil as if the soil was chemically analyzed.

Fourth Sentence - "I think the whole course needs liming."   I believe we can safely assume that by "whole course" he means "whole property" if they intend to grow anything like grass there, because later he talks about how to seed the roughs.

Fifth Sentence - The soil from sections B, F, and G seem to need the most lime.  

Sixth Sentence - Two parts - Section B seems to be pretty stiff clay and the turf sent from Section G shows that the lime is "badly locking". (does this mean Section G also is stiff clay?)

Seventh Sentence - On P&O's Arlington Farm they've found that with heavy clay soils it's frequently impossible to correct acidity, even with heavy doses of lime, but where they've added barnyard manure with the lime they've had better results.

Eight Sentence - At this time of year (mid to late March) it's impractical to use manure on "your fair greens", but Oakley suggests that Wilson keep this in mind and apply manure in the fall if it can be secured.    

I don't know, Tom...I kind of see how maybe you're getting there.


In the previous letter Wilson brings up the topic first when he asks, "Would it be better to spread the manure first before plowing up the ground, since we do not intend to seed until the fall, OR, would it be best to plow and harrow the ground, THEN put on the lime and fertilizer, and go over it again and plow and harrow in the fall, before seeding?

In a subsequent letter, Oakley recommends spreading the manure at a rate of 10 tons per acre.   They also talk about just harrowing and fertilzing the area of 25 acres where turf seems to be growing historically, with no separate treatments recommended for what might be fairway, green, or rough in those 25 acres.

Subsequent letters by both Wilson and Oakley don't talk at all about delineating between sections, except for seeding rates.

Manure will be spread evenly at 10 tons per acre, and the lime will be applied at the rate of 2 tons per acre.

It's only when they talk about planting seed that greens are very heaviliy seeded, fairways as well, and roughs at 70% of the rate of fairways.

Honestly, Tom...I think you're reading way too much that isn't there.   Please don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that it's not possible that an early course routing was drawn on that topo, but I don't see any solid, much less conclusive evidence in any of these letters that tells me it's so.

As far as the Green Committee questions, I don't know the answer to either question, honestly.

I do know that by December 1914 he was so taxed by his work at Merion and subsequent design/build jobs at Merion West, Seaview, Philmont, and North Hills, as well as his work for Robert Lesley's GAP Committee charged with locating a site for Philly's first public course that he resigned as Green Committee Chairman, citing the need to focus on his business affairs.

Despite that, in January 1915 Robert Lesley (who was now President of GAP) picked Wilson again to lead a committee...this time to design and construct the public course at Cobb's Creek.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

You know full well where the 130 acres are in your theory and you know where 3 of the 4 boundaries are since you contend that the northern boundary is at Haverford College.

So you simply need to figure where to draw the western boundary to leave 13 acres that Merion could have still as an option while retaining 117 acres that all of the records reflect.

LIFS boxes you into that corner, not me!

Mike,

I gave you a straight answer to your question.  There's no need to tell me how I should have answered it.  You asked me what my answer was. My straight answer is that I don't know where the 117 acres are because there is no known boundaries for it. You should think for yourself, not me.  I did notice that you ducked my questions, so let me try again:

Where do you think the 117 acres was located?

What documentary evidence (not speculation) do you have to support your location?

Why do you think that MCC never bothered to document the boundaries of the 117 acres that they were paying $85,000 for?

And, to add one to the mix that you've ducked before:

Why would the reporter create an option on top of the 117 acre "purchase"?  And, why specifically 13 acres?  Can you think of any plausible reason why a reporter and his editor would create those two points out of nothing to pad out a very short story?

[Bryan Izatt]

Now that I have your attention, could you point me to the posts where I can find the quotes, where it says that "Macdonald and Whigham had determined the final layout plan", or that "the Committee's recommendation (to purchase the property) is based largely on M&W's opinions". I'd like to review the quote before amending the timeline.

I haven't been able to locate it, and am not sure we ever got "exact" language. 

- TEPaul repeatedly wrote that CBM and Whigham were brought back to Merion and spent the day going over the course and reviewing the plans, and that they approved of  liked  (in my lexicon, "approved of" means to like)   one plan that would give Merion seven the best inland holes anywhere, and that the plan of which they approved  they liked  was the one presented to the board and approved  (I agree that the Board approved the plan, that M&W liked, in a decision making sense , but you can see that that's different from your quote above "Macdonald and Whigham had determined the final layout plan".)  by the board.   
- TEPaul also wrote that it is possible that the plan M&W selected  Again, I can see this being used in terms of M&W saying they like one plan better than the others, but not giving the impression that their liking equaled approval in a decision making sense.   (he sometimes uses that word instead of approved) could have been subtantively altered by M&W before it went to the board. 
-  TEPaul also wrote that M&W reiterated their suggestion that Merion needed to aquire the land behind the clubhouse and the layout plan that was presented to the board utilized this land. 

I'll keep looking but these threads are pretty dense.

................................

David,

I agree the the threads are dense as well as voluminous.  I don't recall Tom saying those things that way. I seem to recall that you interpreted them that way.  In any event, I have trouble including what might be your interpretation of Tom's  unsupported ramblings as fact in the time line. If you find the supporting quotes (even from Tom) let me know and I'll put them in.

[Bryan Izatt]

...........................

It is interesting Wilson refers to the map in his first letter as a contour map, in his response to Wilson Oakley calls it a blue print, and from that point on they both refer to it as a blue print. A blue print is a plan.

Tom,

As someone previously pointed out, blueprint could refer to the process by which the contour map was copied.  The "plan" on the blueprint may have been nothing more than the contour lines.  I think you are making a leap to a conclusion here.

[DMoriarty]

Bryan,

I don't agree with your replacement of "approved" with liked.  When the board approved the purchase, does that mean that they merely "liked" it, or did they give it the go ahead?

At any rate here are some quotes from TEPaul and one by Mike, who has also supposedly seen this stuff.    Didn't copy down the cite on two of them.

TEPaul, post 136 of Findlay thread:
The board report goes on to say that following the visit to NGLA Wilson and his committee did “five different plans.” It ends by reporting that Macdonald/Whigam returned to Merion for a single day (April 6, 1911) and went over their plans and went over the ground and stated that they would approve of a particular plan as they felt it contained what would be the best seven holes of any inland course in the world! As they had done the previous June, Macdonald also suggested on April 6, 1911 that Merion should acquire that 3 acres behind the clubhouse which belonged to the P&W railroad and was not a part of the 338 land deal between Lloyd and the developers that included the land for the golf course that had already been purchased actually in the name of Lloyd and his wife. Presumably, as per Macdonald’s suggestion to that effect, by April 6, 1911, at least, one of the plans incorporated that 3 acre P&W land for some holes (that would be the land that included the old 12th green and the old 13th hole which no longer exist). I also believe it was just previous to this time (April 6, 1911) that Richard Francis conceived of his idea with Lloyd to do the land swap to create enough space in the existing triangle to construct the 15th green and 16th tee that would bring into design Merion's famous Quarry hole (#16). David Moriarty, in my mind, it is more than possible, although definitely not certain, that none of the five Merion plans on that day in April included that P&W land and that in fact may’ve been an architectural or conceptual suggestion that Macdonald/Whigam made on their own during that one and only single day they were there . . .  Within two weeks, the plan that Macdonald/Whigam said they would approve of was taken to the board and considered and approved and that was the routing and design plan used to create the original Merion East.

TEPaul:
They only presented one plan after consulting with Macdonald/Whigam on that single day in early April 1911 about which the Wilson report (to the board) says Macdonald/Whigam approved the plan that they (Macdonald and Whigam) described as having a last seven holes equal to any inland course in the world.

TEPaul:
What we do know is the Wilson Committee report says that before visiting NGLA they had laid out many different courses and following their visit to NGLA the Wilson Committee then went home and rearranged the course and laid out five different plans. Then approximately three weeks later Macdonald and Whigam came to Ardmore for a single day (April 6, 1911) and went over the grounds and looked over the plans and said they would approve the plan they felt contained a last seven holes that were the equal to any inland course in the world. The report says the Wilson Committee sent that particular plan to Lesley and the board.

Quote from: TEPaul on September 09, 2008, 09:23:30 PM
Then with the day back at Ardmore on April 6, 1911 at which time Macdonald and Whigam looked over their ground again and what they had done with it with their final five plans and then they got them to approve one of their five plans they'd done since returning from NGLA which they took immediately to their board and had it approved and then proceded to build it.

Quote from: TEPaul on June 18, 2008, 05:25:03 PM
In early April Macdonald and Whigam came to Ardmore for a single day and went over the plans created by Wilson and his committee, they toured the grounds, they then selected one of those plans that they described as containing the best last seven holes of any inland course in the world (later reported in the newspaper). The committee gave that plan to the board and it was approved and construction began.

Quote from: MikeCirba on April 18, 2009, 06:39:01 PM
Shivas,

My limited understanding is the Committee after returning from NGLA "had laid out five different plans" and then said that M&W came over for a day on April 6th and reviewed the plans and stated that if Merion laid it out according to one of the plans they approved that Merion would have the best seven inland finishing holes in the country.

I would think that means that M&W made the selection of the best plan, which Lesley two weeks later presented for approval to the board for the committee with the recommended plan attached.

______________________________________________________

As for the "blueprint" being just a contour, it is possible, but a quick onlike look revealed no examples in that time period where the word blueprint was used to describe just a contour map.    Did they even create contour maps as blueprints?  As opposed to carbon copies?   

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

Thanks.  That must have taken some effort to find all those cites, given the (lack of) effectiveness of the search engine


Paging Mike C.  Would you like to check with Tom and see if he'd like to stand by these cites or does he want to retract?  Or change to use of "approve of" meaning to like, not to decide.

Bryan,

I don't agree with your replacement of "approved" with liked.  I wasn't proposing replacing "approved", just "approved of" and "of which they approved".  There is a difference, even in the dictionary.When the board approved the purchase, does that mean that they merely "liked" it, or did they give it the go ahead?  You'll notice that I didn't change the "approve" after the Board.  Of course, they approve - decide- and give it the go-ahead.  M&W approved of (liked) one plan, but that doesn't mean they decided and gave it the go-ahead.  That's the Board's prerogative.

At any rate here are some quotes from TEPaul and one by Mike, who has also supposedly seen this stuff.    Didn't copy down the cite on two of them.

TEPaul, post 136 of Findlay thread:
The board report goes on to say that following the visit to NGLA Wilson and his committee did “five different plans.” It ends by reporting that Macdonald/Whigam returned to Merion for a single day (April 6, 1911) and went over their plans and went over the ground and stated that they would approve of a particular plan as they felt it contained what would be the best seven holes of any inland course in the world! As they had done the previous June, Macdonald also suggested on April 6, 1911 that Merion should acquire that 3 acres behind the clubhouse which belonged to the P&W railroad and was not a part of the 338 land deal between Lloyd and the developers that included the land for the golf course that had already been purchased actually in the name of Lloyd and his wife. Presumably, as per Macdonald’s suggestion to that effect, by April 6, 1911, at least, one of the plans incorporated that 3 acre P&W land for some holes (that would be the land that included the old 12th green and the old 13th hole which no longer exist). I also believe it was just previous to this time (April 6, 1911) that Richard Francis conceived of his idea with Lloyd to do the land swap to create enough space in the existing triangle to construct the 15th green and 16th tee that would bring into design Merion's famous Quarry hole (#16). David Moriarty, in my mind, it is more than possible, although definitely not certain, that none of the five Merion plans on that day in April included that P&W land and that in fact may’ve been an architectural or conceptual suggestion that Macdonald/Whigam made on their own during that one and only single day they were there . . .  Within two weeks, the plan that Macdonald/Whigam said they would approve of was taken to the board and considered and approved and that was the routing and design plan used to create the original Merion East.

TEPaul:
They only presented one plan after consulting with Macdonald/Whigam on that single day in early April 1911 about which the Wilson report (to the board) says Macdonald/Whigam approved the plan that they (Macdonald and Whigam) described as having a last seven holes equal to any inland course in the world.

TEPaul:
What we do know is the Wilson Committee report says that before visiting NGLA they had laid out many different courses and following their visit to NGLA the Wilson Committee then went home and rearranged the course and laid out five different plans. Then approximately three weeks later Macdonald and Whigam came to Ardmore for a single day (April 6, 1911) and went over the grounds and looked over the plans and said they would approve the plan they felt contained a last seven holes that were the equal to any inland course in the world. The report says the Wilson Committee sent that particular plan to Lesley and the board.

Quote from: TEPaul on September 09, 2008, 09:23:30 PM
Then with the day back at Ardmore on April 6, 1911 at which time Macdonald and Whigam looked over their ground again and what they had done with it with their final five plans and then they got them to approve one of their five plans they'd done since returning from NGLA which they took immediately to their board and had it approved and then proceded to build it.

Quote from: TEPaul on June 18, 2008, 05:25:03 PM
In early April Macdonald and Whigam came to Ardmore for a single day and went over the plans created by Wilson and his committee, they toured the grounds, they then selected one of those plans that they described as containing the best last seven holes of any inland course in the world (later reported in the newspaper). The committee gave that plan to the board and it was approved and construction began.

Quote from: MikeCirba on April 18, 2009, 06:39:01 PM
Shivas,

My limited understanding is the Committee after returning from NGLA "had laid out five different plans" and then said that M&W came over for a day on April 6th and reviewed the plans and stated that if Merion laid it out according to one of the plans they approved that Merion would have the best seven inland finishing holes in the country.

I would think that means that M&W made the selection of the best plan, which Lesley two weeks later presented for approval to the board for the committee with the recommended plan attached.

______________________________________________________

As for the "blueprint" being just a contour, it is possible, but a quick onlike look revealed no examples in that time period where the word blueprint was used to describe just a contour map.    Did they even create contour maps as blueprints?  As opposed to carbon copies?   You'll notice that Wilson called it a "contour" map first.  Then Oakley called it a "blueprint" and then Wilson referred to it as a "blue  print".  Wilson consistently called it a "blue  print", i.e. a print which was blue, which I think means the copying process.  I don't remember carbon copies being very effective, certainly not for things like contour maps.  Blue prints on the other hand were durable and waterprooof.  Good things in the field.  So, I'd go with it was referring to the copying process rather than it being a detailed design (blueprint in common terminology) on a contour map.

Secondarily, I'd think that the samples that they described on the map probably weren't related to specific greens or fairways, but rather to topological or geological or ecological areas.  If they related to green and fairway locations you'd think that they'd have gotten 18 green samples and at least 18 fairway samples.  They only mention somewhere around 5 or 6 samples.  Fire away.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bryan,

I believe you are correct in your interpretation of blueprint.

Also, I have no problem with David's cites as far as what Tom relayed previously except to note as I told you previously that Tom's thinking evolved around the three acres mentioned in the Apr 1911 board meeting that it says they agreed to purchase for 7500 dollars and I'm in agreement with his new interpretation.

On the other hand, I can tell you definitely that neither Tom nor Wayne have any interest in sharing any additional info with anyone on this site now that it's become a sideshow targeted to embarrass them and I wouldn't even think of asking either of them.

So, if the goal was to get rid of any dissenting voices here, we're almost there. 

Last, I believe in Jeff's theory, or a slight variation of it and believe the triangle as part of the Johnson Farm was always part of the land and that it only needed to be widened.

I believe the additional 13 acres considered was land across from the clubhouse that they looked at for tennis and other sport activities but quickly discarded the idea once they began trying to route the golf course in Jan 1911.  I also believe that the 3 acres approved for purchase was the Francis Swap were those three acres west of the working approximate boundary on the 1910 Land Plan.

That is the only conceivable scenario where Francis would have needed Lloyd's approval.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
This is what Wilson wrote in 1916: "We collected all the information we could from local committees and greenkeepers, and started in the spring of 1911 to construct the course on the ground which had largely been farm land. We used an average of fifteen tons of horse manure to the acre on the fairways and eight tons of various kinds of manure to a green, the greens averaging about 10,000 square feet in area. After completing the construction of the greens, and thoroughly harrowing and breaking up the soil on both fairways and greens, we allowed the weeds to germinate and harrowed them in about every three weeks. We sowed from September 1 to 15 and made a remarkably good catch, due to two things--good weather conditions and a thorough preparation of the soil."

I don't believe he mentions anything about the rough in his account. His actions during the period in question are focused on fairways and greens. In fact he doesn't turn his focus to the rough in the P&O letters until after the September seeding of fairways and greens, when he asks Oakley & Co about some grasses that would work well for the rough. Reading this 1916 account after reading the letters provides a whole new perspective to what Wilson was actually doing at Merion.

[Tom MacWood]

If you believe the contour map was blank and if you believe the course was not routed or staked out until April, you have two anomalies in the letters of February and March. The continual use of the terms blue print and golf course.

[Niall C]

...........................

It is interesting Wilson refers to the map in his first letter as a contour map, in his response to Wilson Oakley calls it a blue print, and from that point on they both refer to it as a blue print. A blue print is a plan.

Tom,

As someone previously pointed out, blueprint could refer to the process by which the contour map was copied.  The "plan" on the blueprint may have been nothing more than the contour lines.  I think you are making a leap to a conclusion here.

Bryan

Spot on. I tried to make the point to Tom. P&O referred to it as a blue print as opposed to a paper plan or linen plan. Blueprint was merely the the substance the plan was shown on.

These days the term blueprint is often used in reference to the content, be that in plan form or written form. It would be quite wrong to put a modern interpretation on the use of the term.

Niall

[Tom MacWood]

Niall/Bryan
If you believe the blue print is a blank contour map on what date (approximately) do you believe it became a real plan?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

They refer to the amount of seed to apply to the roughs in one of the first letters.



The early letters also speak of spreading manure and lime indiscriminately at 10 tons and 2 tons to the acre respectively,

That the plan evolved later to put more on the fairways and greens sometime after April 1911 and an approved final routing is not surprising at all but this certainly wasn't his expressed intent in early 1911 for either he or Oakley.

I'd also point out again that Wilson wrote that essay in 1916 specically at P+Os request particular to a book on Agronomy.

Continued attempts to make it appear that this was the only focus of what he did at Merion East are laid hollow once the reader realizes that Wilson is merely talking about mainly construction and grassing because that is all he was asked to write about for the book.

[Niall C]

If you believe the contour map was blank and if you believe the course was not routed or staked out until April, you have two anomalies in the letters of February and March. The continual use of the terms blue print and golf course.

who says the contour map was blank ? It showed at least two things, the contours and where the samples were taken from.

Also, if it did show a routing, the fairways and greens would presumably not only be shown but would be numbered ie. a routing is the sequence of one hole after another. That being the case, why no reference to specific holes ?

Regarding the term "golf course", over here in the UK that refers to everything within the boundary of the course bearing in mind that the vast majority of courses in the UK are self contained and without any housing inbetween fairways etc. In other words just like Merion. I have read nothing different in newspaper articles and writings of the time that suggests it was any different back then.

With regards to when a golf course becomes a golf course, I don't think it is uncommon regarding new courses that once the site is identified, secured and going forward that it is henceforth referred to as the "golf course". Again I don't think anything has changed over time.

Niall

[Mike_Cirba]

Niall,

Good on you, mate!

Did I mention that your common sense is a breath of fresh air in this stale, smoke-fogged room?

[Tom MacWood]

Niall
If you believe the blue print was a contour map without a golf course routing, on what date (approximately) do you believe it became a real golf course plan?

[Mike_Cirba]

Bryan,

Since I know you'll ask, I'm starting to  think Francis traded "land that was not part of any golf layout" because it was first envisioned to place the lawn tennis courts and sundry activities there for a brief time as the January 1911 Merion correspondence and news accounts related.

Once the course routing started in earnest, however, I'm thinking perhaps they saw that wasn't going to work but still had routed around that area.

I also think it would have been hard to justify tennis-front properties to Connell, or perhaps they could not agree on the same low price for another 13 acres.

How much did LLoyd pay again per acre for the 161?

[Niall C]

Tom

Sorry, only saw your latest post after I posted above.

One thing you should bear in mind with plans, is that they are for a specific purpose. In this case to identify where soil samples were taken from and possibly also to show the contours although it maybe that Wilson used a the contour map merely as a basis for showing the location of the soil samples. (although as I type this I think that unlikely as he could just as easily sent the samples on their own and identified them A,B and C etc). In other words there wouldn't necessarily be a masterplan with all information on it ie. golf course, services, soil sample locations etc.

Basically what I am saying is that you are wrong to jump to the conclusion that just because there was a contour map, and that it was in blueprint form, and it showed where soil samples were done, that therefore it must also have shown a routing. It may well have but I think that very unlikely for the reason given in my earlier posts.

All of that of course doesn't preclude that Wilson didn't have a separate routing plan, indeed I would be surprised if they hadn't at least been going over different possible routings by this stage. Indeed they may have had a finalised routing by that stage (although the subsequent visit of MacDonald/Whigam suggests not) and it may well have been done by Barker/MacDonald/Whigam or whoever but frankly I don't you can make any kind of conclusion from the Wilson/P&O letters.

Niall  

[Tom MacWood]

Niall
Presumably they had the contour map made so they could put their ideas to paper, would you agree?

My question to you is on what date did they finalize the plan (approximately), in other words when did the contour map become the plan for the golf course they began constructing?

[Mike_Cirba]

Niall,

Your logic is impeccable.   If holes were identified on the map, there would have been at least one reference somewhere from either Wilson or Oakley, even in passing.

There is not.

I think Wilson at first did think a contour map would be useful to Oakley and in his very first letter asks Oakley to look at it and tell HIM where to take samples from.

I don't know much about geology, like the song says, but in my ignorance I'm thinking perhaps that Wilson thought like me and felt that Oakley might identify low-lying areas, any heavily sloped areas, areas near water, etc., might be areas where there would be cause for concern and/or special handling from an agronomic perspective.

[Niall C]

Tom

On your basic point you I think you are absolutely correct, the base plan would be the contour plan which would show the boundary and I would think landmarks also ie. existing roads, burns, clubhouse etc. I would think that in this instance the contour plan would be the base for all the plans produced including the Routing Plan.

To answer your second question, the real finalised plan I suppose is the as built drawing. Before then the drawings are largely working drawings. To elaborate on my earlier post, the things to focus on in looking at a plan to determine the reason for it, have a look at the the box in the corner which will give you info like the title of the plan (ie. Contour Plan or Routing Plan etc), date of drawing, date of survey, key (to explain symbols lines etc).

Niall

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff/Bryan,

Going forward with my theory about the 13 acres being possibly for other sporting activities, I think we need to literally consider everything Francis told us and we know in January 1911 that Lawn Tennis and skating were part of the plan for the new property.

Bottom line is whether Jeff's theory is correct, but especially if LIFS is correct, it is incompehensible to me that a large portion of land on the property they bought for the golf course would be "not part of any golf layout", and also right across from the Clubhouse "along Golf House Road now covered in fine homes".   There simply wasn't enough land they were dealing with to sacrifice a large section or to not even consider it for golf purposes in any layout, whether it was 117 acres or 130 acres, especially given the proximity to the clubhouse, if it wasn't originally believed that it was needed to be retained for some non-golfing purpose.  

Also, Francis told us that "we had some land", meaning that it was under Merion's control, and "Maybe we could swap it for some good use", so by definition it sounds like 1) They swapped it for land not already owned by them, and 2) They considered the 117 acres they secured during  Lloyds's 161 acre purchase in December as having acquired that land for Merion.

That is also consistent with the MCC Minutes of April 1911 where it was approved to trade "land already purchased for land adjoining".

We know Merion didn't officially "own" the land until July 1911, so the only possibility is that they considered Lloyd's 161 acre purchase in December as their acquistion.

If you think 13 acres might have been excessive for Lawn Tennis, think about Wimbledon.   Nothing these guys did was anything less than world class.

Here is a view of their Cricket Facilities in 1930.

[Tom MacWood]

Niall
One would presume they had a finalized working drawing that they followed as they constructed the golf course. My question to you is on what date (approximately) did they finalize that working plan?

[Mike_Cirba]

And with that, and with all of the "new evidence" fully considered, I see no point to continue this discussion.

I know I tried to stop the other day, but once the P&O stuff starting coming in I did want the chance to consider and discuss what might be of value and interest, and I wish to thank Tom MacWood for bringing it forward, even though we obviously don't agree on its meaning.   Nevertheless, as far as I'm concerned, I rest comfortable that most all questions have been answered.

I wish to thank those who have given me good personal advice that I will now follow and bid everyone here adieu... 

Thanks to those who helped.
Mike

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