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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1675 on: June 17, 2009, 05:49:49 PM »
What has David Moriarity designed? (smile)

I doubt that he has acquiesced (sp) and decided that the Merion Time Line provided here is correct. I suspect he has just given up the battle until he can provide more proof (at least in his eyes) He was valuble, IMHO in moving the knowledge forward, even though I suspect Wayne and TePaul would still say that they knew most of this for years. It did make them go back through documnents with a new eye.

As to Rich's idea, I agree. Its a whole new thread.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1676 on: June 17, 2009, 05:54:22 PM »
Rihc,

Easy.

Because he wasn't Hugh Wilson.


Rich Goodale

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1677 on: June 17, 2009, 05:54:50 PM »
Henry

If there are any responses which make me think a new thread is warranted, I'll be happy to start it.  Unitl then, let's see if anybody sees any relevance of my question to the current hread.

As for David, I have no idea if he was disappeared by the powers that be or he disappeared himself.

Jeff

That's two votes for a new thread.

Rich

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1678 on: June 17, 2009, 05:58:02 PM »
Rihc,

I can think of a few titles but would simply suggest; "HH Barker - Just Great or The Greatest?"

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1679 on: June 17, 2009, 06:06:36 PM »
Rich,

I think Tom MacWood believes HH Barker was one of the best in the business in 1910...beyond that I haven't a clue about the man.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1680 on: June 17, 2009, 06:07:28 PM »
Perhaps David went to Hawaii for a few days to buy Tom a Mai Tai...

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1681 on: June 17, 2009, 07:25:31 PM »

Mike,

The RR map would have to be out of scale if you say two holes fit there, north of the Dallas Estate.  The whole parcel is 4 holes wide.  The little notch before purchase of the Dallas Estate is about 1/3 (not 1/2) the width of that side of the L.  It was NOT wide enough to put in two good holes.  120 yards is 360 feet - good enough for one hole by today's standards, and even by old day standards, short of being wide enough for two holes.  A minimum for two holes back then would have probably been 400 to 450 feet, whereas today it would be a minimum of 500-600 feet.

With your permission, I will use the Brauer Hour as a catch phrase.

But let me ask you a question:  I thought your whole premise was that the changes simply occurred along Golf House Road, no?  Why are we spending time trying to find exactly what land was swapped?  I don't think there was a formal swap, other than the land along Golf House Road.

Jeff,

Per Bryan's earlier map, you can see the land in question contains both today's 2nd hole as well as the 6th tee and most of the 5th fairway.  

I daresay a clever fellow like you could certainly get two holes in there, probably in even UNDER an hour!!  ;)

And going north of today's 15th green/16th tee you had another 137 yards to work with, and enough width in that land he has marked "JW" to work with.

After all, we only need you to build a sporty 6000 yard course and you can cross old dusty Ardmore Avenue as many times as your heart desires!  ;)  ;D




But to your other, much more relevant question...why are we continuing with this exercise.

Well, I agree...we are only talking about the boundary being adjusted along Golf House Road.

However, some here like Bryan still contend that the Land Plan is "pretty close", so it must account for something and since he's put a ton of work into this I'm trying to give him some idea of what I think might have happened, based on what few facts we have, as you'll see shortly.

Thanks for your insight and patience through this Groundhog Day of a thread.  ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1682 on: June 17, 2009, 08:31:40 PM »
As this is post 1775, perhaps it's too much to wish for, but there would be sort of a nice irony to this whole thing if perhaps Bryan would simply respond to this post with a Eureka moment saying, "aha!   I see exactly what you're saying Mike!!"  and end this thread with the nice Philadelphia-sounding post #1776.   ;D

With that being said, I am going to cross over the border into Speculationland.   Thankfully, we do have some known facts to help us on our journey.

What is it we know for certain...ok...let's see...

1) At the time the November 15, 1910 Land Plan was drawn, it was stated that it represented the 117 acres of proposed golf course acreage.

2) Modern day measuring by both David Moriarty and Bryan Izatt state that it actually measures more than that, somewhere around 122 acres in total.

3) Both agree that it's because the only variable boundary...the "approximate" road that later became Golf House Road with different dimensions...is not drawn in the correct place and/or shaping to accurately reflect 117 acres.   Everyone else agrees.

4) In April, 1911 the MCC Board minutes as related by Tom Paul tell us that the Board approved a Golf Committee motion to exchange land with land already purchased, as well as the additional purchase of three acres.

5) When the boundaries were finalized, and Merion purchased the property in July 1911, the final course measured 120.1 acres.

6) In 1950, Richard Francis of Hugh Wilson's committee wrote that his one big contribution to the project was to figure out how to create enough space -to fit the final five holes (the first 13 had been routed) by swapping some already-secured land "west of the present course that did not fit in at all with any golf layout", and also describes that traded parcel as "the land now covered with fine houses along golf house road".  

7) As of February 1911 we know that Merion had a topographical map of the property that they were working from, as Hugh Wilson sent it to Piper & Oakley.   This map would have certainly had the boundary dimensions they were working with on that variable northwestern border.  

8)Fortunately, we also know at least where the starting point of the proposed boundary of that map was.   WHAT?!? I hear you say... :o  

Well, yes, we do, because at the point Francis had his brainstorm the first 13 holes had already been routed and Francis himself tell us that "it was not very difficult to get the first thirteen holes into the upright position - with the help of a little land on the north side of Ardmore Avenue."

So, we know they were unrestricted in building those holes and utlized that "little land on the north side" as the 3 acres of Railroad Land they had leased in May 1911 to fit the approach and green of the 12th and the par three 13th on that land.  

That included ALL of the course and land south of the clubhouse, to the lower parts of the property across Ardmore Avenue.

But what of the areas north of the clubhouse...the final stretch where Francis tells us they had trouble fitting in the final five holes?


Since David Moriarty published his essay a few years back his contention had been that the all of the holes "fit" on the 1910 Land Plan, and then when Bryan started was doing his good work recently it became that they "almost fit" and then that they didn't fit because the road was "approximate", and then well, at least the 15th green and 16th tee fit, just like Mr. Francis wanted.   ::)

The simple fact is that the 1910 Land Plan and the "approximate road" north of Ardmore Avenue DOES NOT FIT THE GOLF HOLES in any way, shape or form ALL ALONG THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF IT, FROM TOP TO BOTTOM on the boundary that today is represented by Golf House Road.

At the very northern end, it shows a "triangle of land" that is at most 100 yards wide at the base and runs 327 yards to the north on land that in reality today for the golf course is 135 yards to the middle of Golf House Road to 190 yards at the northern course border.

Moving South, large sections of the left of side of hole number 15 do not fit.

Going further south, the original 15th tee does not fit.

Going further south, the 14th green...obliterated...does not fit.

Then further south, despite the fact that the land across from the clubhouse today bellies out, our land plan has a little pot at best.   Don't forget....this is supposed to represent 117 acres yet this section goes well into what we know today are houses.

But finally, the coup de grace...

We know that Richard Francis tell us that they had the first 13 holes already routed when he had his brainstorm.  

He did not tell us that he and his committee had trouble putting the first hole, and the first green, and the second tee in place.   In fact, we know he also told us that the 2nd tee used to be on the northern side of Ardmore Avenue, just beyond the original 1st green, which was just slightly north of today's green.




How far off is that 1910 Land Plan?

The starting point of Golf House Road where it meets Ardmore Avenue on the 1910 Land Plan is OVER FIFTY FIVE YARDS TOO FAR TO THE EAST AND WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO FIT THE ORIGINAL FIRST FAIRWAY, FIRST GREEN AND SECOND TEE!!! (see aerial view below)


We can now see clearly that the 1910 Land Plan is flawed, faulty, and futilie from Top to Bottom.

We also now know without a shadow of a doubt that the Francis Land Swap HAD TO HAVE HAPPENED AFTER THAT MAP WAS DRAWN BECAUSE THE FIRST HOLE WOULD NOT EVEN FIT as originally designed as a right to left dogleg.


Because Bryan put in so much hard work and because he asked me to, I drew this attempt at what I think the land boundary looked like on Hugh Wilson's map.    

As I said, we now know the starting point HAD TO BE EXACTLY where today Ardmore Ave. and Golf House Road intersect, so that's my lower boundary.   We also know that Wilson and the boys had to be working with 117 acres, so I'm assuming that the Land Plan did not bow out nearly enough in the land across from the clubhouse.  

I'm also assuming that generally the boundary line was drawn a bit further east along the extent of it on the REAL map than was illustrated on the Land Plan.

Unfortunately, Francis's contention that they traded land that is now covered by fine homes along Golf House Road doesn't help us at all because it is covered by fine homes along the length of it, and already was when he spoke in 1950, and besides, hadn't that been the plan all along??

Instead, I think he's speaking of giving back some of the land right across from the clubhouse...not as much as is indicated by the difference in the Land Plan vs the "as built".   If it were that wide I simply cannot imagine how some 65 or more yards of width would not have been considered in "any golf plan".

No, instead, I think it was a narrower strip, and this is what I think the Hugh Wilson map looked like.    I have no idea what it would measure...I wouldn't know a planemeter from a planetarium, but if nothing else, we now know two things;

1) The starting point of the Golf House Road boundary on the real map used to design Merion.

2) That the Francis Land Swap took place, and Merion was designed, sometime AFTER November 15, 1910.

Thanks for all of your help.



 

« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 09:37:15 PM by MCirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1683 on: June 17, 2009, 11:16:11 PM »
Mike Cirba,

Have you seen the Cuyler letter in its entirety ?

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1684 on: June 17, 2009, 11:40:37 PM »
Mike Cirba,

Have you seen the Cuyler letter in its entirety ?

Patrick,

Do you really think I'd be putting as much time and energy into this thread as I have if the Cuyler letter said anything like those who are now clinging to it as a final last hope like a boat chair on the Titanic are wishing?

In other words, now that the 1910 Land Plan that was the supposed "proof" that Hugh Wilson could not have designed Merion is lying stone dead in tatters at the bottom of the ocean, and every other last shred of possible evidence of a design prior to Hugh Wilson has been competely refuted, the Macdonald as Designer of Merion crowd has now had to come to me searching for a flicker of hope in the wording of a letter from Mr. Cuyler in December of 1910 that they hope can be twisted somehow into confusing the issue yet again that perhaps really Barker...or Macdonald and Whigham...or ANYBODY but Hugh Wilson designed Merion?!?!?!?

Sorry...it's over.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1685 on: June 18, 2009, 02:33:49 AM »
Mike Cirba,

Have you seen the Cuyler letter in its entirety ?

Patrick,

Do you really think I'd be putting as much time and energy into this thread as I have if the Cuyler letter said anything like those who are now clinging to it as a final last hope like a boat chair on the Titanic are wishing?

In other words, now that the 1910 Land Plan that was the supposed "proof" that Hugh Wilson could not have designed Merion is lying stone dead in tatters at the bottom of the ocean, and every other last shred of possible evidence of a design prior to Hugh Wilson has been competely refuted, the Macdonald as Designer of Merion crowd has now had to come to me searching for a flicker of hope in the wording of a letter from Mr. Cuyler in December of 1910 that they hope can be twisted somehow into confusing the issue yet again that perhaps really Barker...or Macdonald and Whigham...or ANYBODY but Hugh Wilson designed Merion?!?!?!?

Sorry...it's over.

Mike,

The question was simple.  You could have just answered yes or no.  Could I interpret your long answer as, yes you've seen it in its entirety, and no it doesn't provide any insight into the existence of plans or the boundaries of the 117 acres?

As a related thought, Tom posted this way back in one of his harangues to David (and I added boldness and size to one section that intrigues me):

"Your essay contends HDC sold the land to MCC in the beginning of Jan. 1911. Wrong again. Lloyd et ux NOT MCC would BUY the land and hold the land from Dec. 19, 1910 until July, 1911 at which point he would transfer it back to Rothwell who would immediately transfer it to the MCC Golf Association Co.  Your essay reflects none of this seemingly important and significant transfer arrangement that appears to have been done so Lloyd could move certain boundary lines for the proposed 117 acre coursearound at will with the contiguous 221 acres of the HDC land. Apparently you never realized any of that. Lloyd on the advice of Cuylers had taken 161 acres into his own name which included the exact dimensions of the 117 acres for the golf course for the express purpose of being able to move boundaries lines around at will with HDC if needed. It was needed and he did so. Thompson's 4/19/11 board resolution reflected that when it referenced "land already purchased exchanged for land adjoining.""

So, if you've seen Cuyler's letters, do they actually contain the boundaries of the 117 acres?  I assume either you haven't seen them, or they don't contain the boundaries of the 117 acres, otherwise why have you worked so hard to come up with boundaries that you say are speculation?  Why not just read them off the Cuyler letters?

 

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1686 on: June 18, 2009, 03:28:00 AM »
As this is post 1775, perhaps it's too much to wish for, but there would be sort of a nice irony to this whole thing if perhaps Bryan would simply respond to this post with a Eureka moment saying, "aha!   I see exactly what you're saying Mike!!"  and end this thread with the nice Philadelphia-sounding post #1776.   ;D  Sadly, I see that Mr Mucci beat me to the prized Phillie post #1776.

With that being said, I am going to cross over the border into Speculationland.   Thankfully, we do have some known facts to help us on our journey.

What is it we know for certain...ok...let's see...

1) At the time the November 15, 1910 Land Plan was drawn, it was stated that it represented the 117 acres of proposed golf course acreage.

2) Modern day measuring by both David Moriarty and Bryan Izatt state that it actually measures more than that, somewhere around 122 acres in total.

3) Both agree that it's because the only variable boundary...the "approximate" road that later became Golf House Road with different dimensions...is not drawn in the correct place and/or shaping to accurately reflect 117 acres.   Everyone else agrees.

4) In April, 1911 the MCC Board minutes as related by Tom Paul tell us that the Board approved a Golf Committee motion to exchange land with land already purchased, as well as the additional purchase of three acres.

5) When the boundaries were finalized, and Merion purchased the property in July 1911, the final course measured 120.1 acres.

6) In 1950, Richard Francis of Hugh Wilson's committee wrote that his one big contribution to the project was to figure out how to create enough space -to fit the final five holes (the first 13 had been routed) by swapping some already-secured land "west of the present course that did not fit in at all with any golf layout", and also describes that traded parcel as "the land now covered with fine houses along golf house road".  Funny that you don't mention the 130 x 190 exact dimensions of the area that Francis wanted.  Are you trying to disavow them? 

7) As of February 1911 we know that Merion had a topographical map of the property that they were working from, as Hugh Wilson sent it to Piper & Oakley.   This map would have certainly had the boundary dimensions they were working with on that variable northwestern border.  You don't know that with certainty, do you?  If you do, how?  Inference won't cut it.  

8)Fortunately, we also know at least where the starting point of the proposed boundary of that map was.   WHAT?!? I hear you say... :o  

Well, yes, we do, because at the point Francis had his brainstorm the first 13 holes had already been routed and Francis himself tell us that "it was not very difficult to get the first thirteen holes into the upright position - with the help of a little land on the north side of Ardmore Avenue."

So, we know they were unrestricted in building those holes and utlized that "little land on the north side" as the 3 acres of Railroad Land they had leased in May 1911 to fit the approach and green of the 12th and the par three 13th on that land.  

That included ALL of the course and land south of the clubhouse, to the lower parts of the property across Ardmore Avenue.

But what of the areas north of the clubhouse...the final stretch where Francis tells us they had trouble fitting in the final five holes?


Since David Moriarty published his essay a few years back his contention had been that the all of the holes "fit" on the 1910 Land Plan, and then when Bryan started was doing his good work recently it became that they "almost fit" and then that they didn't fit because the road was "approximate", and then well, at least the 15th green and 16th tee fit, just like Mr. Francis wanted.   ::)

The simple fact is that the 1910 Land Plan and the "approximate road" north of Ardmore Avenue DOES NOT FIT THE GOLF HOLES in any way, shape or form ALL ALONG THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF IT, FROM TOP TO BOTTOM on the boundary that today is represented by Golf House Road.

At the very northern end, it shows a "triangle of land" that is at most 100 yards wide at the base and runs 327 yards to the north on land that in reality today for the golf course is 135 yards to the middle of Golf House Road to 190 yards at the northern course border.

Moving South, large sections of the left of side of hole number 15 do not fit.

Going further south, the original 15th tee does not fit.

Going further south, the 14th green...obliterated...does not fit.

Then further south, despite the fact that the land across from the clubhouse today bellies out, our land plan has a little pot at best.   Don't forget....this is supposed to represent 117 acres yet this section goes well into what we know today are houses.

But finally, the coup de grace...

We know that Richard Francis tell us that they had the first 13 holes already routed when he had his brainstorm.  

He did not tell us that he and his committee had trouble putting the first hole, and the first green, and the second tee in place.   In fact, we know he also told us that the 2nd tee used to be on the northern side of Ardmore Avenue, just beyond the original 1st green, which was just slightly north of today's green.




How far off is that 1910 Land Plan?

The starting point of Golf House Road where it meets Ardmore Avenue on the 1910 Land Plan is OVER FIFTY FIVE YARDS TOO FAR TO THE EAST AND WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO FIT THE ORIGINAL FIRST FAIRWAY, FIRST GREEN AND SECOND TEE!!! (see aerial view below)
  No need to shout.  First, it is only 25 yards east of the intersection.  No way, no how, is it even near 50 yards.  Measure it on Google Earth, if you don't believe me.  If you look in the overlay picture you can see the 1st green entirely.  If you measure out a 335 yard dogleg left to a green  a little north of the current 1st, it fits fine.  Try it on Google Earth.

We can now see clearly that the 1910 Land Plan is flawed, faulty, and futilie from Top to Bottom.  Well, we could agree that from north of the bow opposite the clubhouse, the current course does not fit within the "approximate" road.  But it's a leap from there to the emotive alliterative flawed faulty and futile. But, nice turn of phrase.

We also now know without a shadow of a doubt that the Francis Land Swap HAD TO HAVE HAPPENED AFTER THAT MAP WAS DRAWN BECAUSE THE FIRST HOLE WOULD NOT EVEN FIT as originally designed as a right to left dogleg.  But, it does fit.  Your conclusion is flawed.


Because Bryan put in so much hard work and because he asked me to, I drew this attempt at what I think the land boundary looked like on Hugh Wilson's map.  I really do thank you for this.  I know how much work it is to develop these theories and put them down in type and pictures.    

As I said, we now know the starting point HAD TO BE EXACTLY where today Ardmore Ave. and Golf House Road intersect, I disagree that it had to be there, as pointed out above, but you can start anywhere you like.   so that's my lower boundary.   We also know that Wilson and the boys had to be working with 117 acres, so I'm assuming that the Land Plan did not bow out nearly enough in the land across from the clubhouse.  

I'm also assuming that generally the boundary line was drawn a bit further east along the extent of it on the REAL map than was illustrated on the Land Plan.

Unfortunately, Francis's contention that they traded land that is now covered by fine homes along Golf House Road doesn't help us at all because it is covered by fine homes along the length of it, and already was when he spoke in 1950, and besides, hadn't that been the plan all along??

Instead, I think he's speaking of giving back some of the land right across from the clubhouse...not as much as is indicated by the difference in the Land Plan vs the "as built".   If it were that wide I simply cannot imagine how some 65 or more yards of width would not have been considered in "any golf plan".

No, instead, I think it was a narrower strip, and this is what I think the Hugh Wilson map looked like.    I have no idea what it would measure...  The two crescents you've created reduce the area by about 4 acres.  But, then you add back in about 1.4 acres at the intersection of Ardmore and GHR.  Net effect is a reduction of 2.6 acres; so down from 122 to 119.4.  You've got another acre and a half to go.  I wouldn't know a planemeter from a planetarium, but if nothing else, we now know two things;

1) The starting point of the Golf House Road boundary on the real map used to design Merion.  I remain unconvinced, as above.

2) That the Francis Land Swap took place, and Merion was designed, sometime AFTER November 15, 1910.  I can't agree on drawing this conclusion based on what you've presented above.  I also don't see the compelling evidence from David for the other side either.

Thanks for all of your help.  You're welcome.  But, I hate to be a pest, but where are you going to place the 130 x 190 part of the swap?  I assume that you want to use the area of the crescent across from the clubhouse as the area that was given back to HDC for the fine homes.



 



Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1687 on: June 18, 2009, 07:16:45 AM »
Bryan,

The first green is not visible in your overlay.

You are mistaking the 1st green for the area of fairway after the turning bunker in the corner of the dogleg.

Your overlay covers almost all of the first green showing only the beginning of the bunker to the right of the green.

Please view it again if you don't believe me.   From the front of that green to the middle of GHR is 65 yards!

Perhaps one problem we have here is that some of the Johnson Farm boundary is actually east of the road that was built??




AS far as the rest, I've already explained many times that I believe Francis was referring to the final size he needed those 130x190 dimensions up top to be...not that the area didn't exist in entirety and they then had to go and buy the whole thing.   There is/was no logical original boundary line delineated on the Johnson Farm going east west and David's attempt to make it be the Haverford College line didn't measure out at all.

As far as my measurements, it's all a matter of degrees.   Move pieces left or right, as necessary, to get to 117 acres but the starting point and ending points of the "approximate road" on the 1910 Land Plan were dead wrong and prove that any adjustment or finalization of that boundary had to take place after that point.  

Especially since we know that they already had the 1st hole fitted when Francis had his idea.

Thanks again for your help.


p.s.   I have read what Tom Paul wrote that the Cuyler letter said here like everyone else; I don't believe it talks about metes and bounds at all but instead Cuyler as Merion's lawyer simply advises in December 1910 that Lloyd put title for both sides of the boundary line in his name so that he can adjust it as necessary for golf purposes.  

And no, I'm not quoting...i'm paraphrasing from memory.  

Sadly and very regrettably, both people who did the research to get that letter are no longer with this website so as far as I'm concerned it's a dead issue.

***EDIT*** Bryan...I just read your post where you quoted Tom Paul about the dimensions of the 117 acres.   I dont' recall reading that prior.  

However, i don't think what Tom is saying there is that the Cuyler letter has the 117 acre metes and bounds, unless I'm misunderstanding him.  To me the Cuyler letter was just a legal opinion of what should take place sent to the club.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 10:49:18 AM by MCirba »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1688 on: June 18, 2009, 08:59:10 AM »

That's two votes for a new thread.


Make that three votes.

Barker had a hand in two of the earliest courses in Atlanta. But I don't pretend to know much about him. In terms of memorable design ideas, he was not a terribly important figure in the history of gca (or else we would all know more about him). But he is of interest nonetheless. During an early era when most course were homemade affairs, Barker was one of the few professional outsiders brought in to design courses.

I also recall that the flask had an important place in his tool kit.

Bob

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1689 on: June 18, 2009, 09:53:24 AM »
Here's some good photos of the location and configuration of the original 1st hole and green.

It would not have fit in the November 15, 1910 Land Plan.










For contrast, here's today's 1st hole.   The orange line is where someone drew Golf House Road.   I believe the brown line is supposed to be the original Johnson Farm boundary.



By contrast, here again is the 1910 Land Plan boundary.

           


Neither today's 1st hole nor the original 1st hole designed and built by Hugh Wilson and his committee would fit into the area drawn on the November 15, 1910 Land Plan.    Nor would the 14th or 15th holes running all the way north along that road.   It's not just wrong a little, it's wrong a LOT, and it's wrong not just up in the top corner but along the entire length of it by various and differing dimensions.

This is clear, conclusive, indisputable, and final proof that both the golf course routing and the Francis Land Swap took place after the November 15, 1910 Land Plan was drawn.  

I think the defense finally rests....   :P ;)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 10:33:54 AM by MCirba »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Stick A Fork In It!
« Reply #1690 on: June 18, 2009, 11:57:30 AM »
I know this has been noted before but:

Dick Francis' comments about the original second tee box being on the clubhouse side of Ardmore Avenue notwithstanding, there are no pictures or drawings of that, so far as I know.  Also, two elderly members who were interviewed in the 1970's that had been playing the East Course since day #1 both reported that they had never played the 2nd hole from any location other than the one we know today.

Just in case you guys thought that this thread was really over.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Stick A Fork In It!
« Reply #1691 on: June 18, 2009, 12:02:32 PM »
I thought we agreed that the colour land plan you've used was distorted and therefore not really usable.  Below is a flatter scan of the plan.  The road runs through the middle of the 1st green as currently sited.  Since I thought we'd agreed that the land plan doesn't measure 117 acres, that its alignment is only "approximate", and that the designers therefore didn't likely use it as a working boundary,  I don't see how you can make a definitive conclusion that it is in the wrong place around the first green and then conclude from there that the land swap and routing took place after November 15, 1910.




If you use you're much beloved mirror road as the 117 acre working boundary, the first green, and all the holes from opposite the clubhouse and south fit, although there are issues at the north end.  Which is where the land swap comes in.  I'll draw it up for you later.  Now, as to when that means the working boundary was in play and when the land swap took place still remains an open question.





I think you're fork is stuck.   ;D


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Stick A Fork In It!
« Reply #1692 on: June 18, 2009, 12:19:20 PM »
Mike,

As near as I can tell, with the Mirror Road, the shifted Road, etc. etc. etc. that you have introduced lately you would seem to be getting away from a final solution more than putting a fork in it and narrowing it down.  The more you post like that, the less convincing the argument becomes.  Not to mention, every time you draw a road alignment, there are obvious discrepancies with the known boundaries, alignments, etc. that would leave you open to charges of manipulating the evidence.

There is no evidence of a different working boundary than the approximate one on the November 10, 1910 plan, is there?  So, why not just presume that since they all knew it was going to change that Wilson's working topo had that same line on it, even if all parties knew that it would be changed AND reduced to 117 or whatever they required?

Then, its easy to make the conclusion that you were right all along - the "land swap" was merely a configuration of GHR as required to get the golf holes MCC wanted.  They just happened to come up 3 acres over, which is fairly common in similar developments (IMH experience)

I am kind of with Bryan on this one (I think - don't want to put words in anyone's mouth) I still say this thing isn't fully nailed down until there is at least one more document, like the Wilson Working Topo made available.  I know this ISN'T an original thought, but we are probably wasting everyone's time until the Philly boys can dig one more document up, that is providing they would be willing to share!

Shiv,

MC believes that because Francis said the first 13 holes, which would include No. 1 were already fitted in.  I agree that its a bit flimsy on the logic side.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Stick A Fork In It!
« Reply #1693 on: June 18, 2009, 12:48:00 PM »
Guys,

Have at it.  

This is perhaps the silliest thing ever.

We are using and measuring a road we know is erroneous and then asking each other to prove what it really was without the dimensions.

All we know is that as of November 15, 1911, THIS is what someone thought it looked like.  What's more, it's what they represented to the members as the proposed land for the golf course.  What's more, it DOESN'T MATCH THE DIMENSIONS OF THE GOLF HOLES THAT WERE BUILT AT ALL ALONG THE ENTIRE LENGTH.

THAT IS NOT what was built, and if you don't understand that it all HAD to have happened after that point in time there is nothing I'm going to say that will convince you.

Thanks for your time and interest.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 12:51:30 PM by MCirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Stick A Fork In It!
« Reply #1694 on: June 18, 2009, 12:55:42 PM »
Mike,

Is there anyone other than you drawing definitive conclusions based on the "approximate" road?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Stick A Fork In It!
« Reply #1695 on: June 18, 2009, 04:25:51 PM »
Mike,

I agree with your post 1788.  Its just that I thought you had concluded that when you retitled the thread the first time (now I can't forget, but I think it was appended with "Finally Solved".  Then, after that, we came back to all sorts of machinations.

For my money, unless someone secures the Wilson Topo and it shows a different working boundary than the approximate road, IMHO, they jumped from that Nov 1910 plan right to routing.  My theory is that if they all knew it was going to change, why pay a surveyor or planner to redraw the road again until someone comes up with a real life location for it based on golf course design?  There is no evidence that they did.

Yes, the concept plan is more than the "secured" 117 acres, but if they all knew that then they could figure that in the routing.  And yes, to believe my interpretation, you have to discount Francis words a bit, but I thought that was the generally prevailing view anyway - that he was merely reciting his role in the relocation of clubhouse drive to accomodate the 15th and 16th holes.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Stick A Fork In It!
« Reply #1696 on: June 18, 2009, 04:45:54 PM »
Mike,

I agree with your post 1788.  Its just that I thought you had concluded that when you retitled the thread the first time (now I can't forget, but I think it was appended with "Finally Solved".  Then, after that, we came back to all sorts of machinations.

For my money, unless someone secures the Wilson Topo and it shows a different working boundary than the approximate road, IMHO, they jumped from that Nov 1910 plan right to routing.  My theory is that if they all knew it was going to change, why pay a surveyor or planner to redraw the road again until someone comes up with a real life location for it based on golf course design?  There is no evidence that they did.

Yes, the concept plan is more than the "secured" 117 acres, but if they all knew that then they could figure that in the routing.  And yes, to believe my interpretation, you have to discount Francis words a bit, but I thought that was the generally prevailing view anyway - that he was merely reciting his role in the relocation of clubhouse drive to accomodate the 15th and 16th holes.

Jeff,

I agree completely, with the only caveat being that we know Hugh Wilson had a topo of the property by early Feb 1911, which I believe we can safely deduce was done by Richard Francis as a member of the committee, and who told us that a large part of his time was running instruments and drawing.   Whether that map had the actual 117 acre proposed boundary is not certain, of course, but I would think they were working with some boundary line on that side of the map.

However, more importantly to your larger point...

I was simply trying to respond to Bryan who insists that the Land Plan had to be meaningful because it was "close".    I don't believe it's close at all, and part of what I was doing very verbosely was trying to prove that it is HUGELY off the mark, in places ranging from 30+ yards to over 60 yards versus what was built and worse yet, it's WRONG along the entire length.   Hell, it doesn't even measure out at the total acreage it is supposed to represent!   ::) :o

Several weeks ago I came to the conclusion that it was not worth much more than a nice Christmas Dinner placemat at the Merion 1910 holiday party and was the one who suggested we all agree to shit can it as evidence of anything useful to this discussion.

In response to that suggestion first David Moriarty, and then Patrick, and then later Bryan felt that it still was useful although I'm still trying to figure out what for.

Bryan has put a ton of time into this and as someone who has done as well, I just wanted to be sure I tried to answer all of his questions responsively in the polite, civil intellectually curious tone he's put forth here because he deserves our gratitude for his hard work on this.

However, at this juncture, I do think that we should NOW ask if anyone has any more evidence or theories to present and if not, let's pound the gavel and send the jury home.   :P :-\ ;D
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 05:00:45 PM by MCirba »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1697 on: June 18, 2009, 05:17:12 PM »
Mike Cirba,

Have you seen the Cuyler letter in its entirety ?

Patrick,

Do you really think I'd be putting as much time and energy into this thread as I have if the Cuyler letter said anything like those who are now clinging to it as a final last hope like a boat chair on the Titanic are wishing?

In other words, now that the 1910 Land Plan that was the supposed "proof" that Hugh Wilson could not have designed Merion is lying stone dead in tatters at the bottom of the ocean, and every other last shred of possible evidence of a design prior to Hugh Wilson has been competely refuted,

That's not true.
Evidently, you refuse to acknowledge or didn't understand the exclusionary nature of the premise.


the Macdonald as Designer of Merion crowd has now had to come to me searching for a flicker of hope in the wording of a letter from Mr. Cuyler in December of 1910 that they hope can be twisted somehow into confusing the issue yet again that perhaps really Barker...or Macdonald and Whigham...or ANYBODY but Hugh Wilson designed Merion?!?!?!?

There is no written contemporaneous proof of that.

The issue isn't Wilson versus Macdonald.
The issue is to uncover evidence/documents that reveal who designed Merion.
You continue to try to thwart the discovery process while others attempt to pursue it.


Sorry...it's over.

Mike,

I asked you a simple question:

Have you seen the Cuyler letter in its entirety ?

Your long winded reply would seem to indicate that you haven't.

If you haven't, then you can't speak to its content.

If you have seen it in its entirety, could you obtain a copy for us ?

Thanks


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Stick A Fork In It!
« Reply #1698 on: June 18, 2009, 05:19:37 PM »
Mike,

Well, I understand.  That said, based on my experience, I think we shouldn't get too hung up on it.  As I say, they might have very well just drawn it in (I think we all agree) and then waited until the final boundary was done.  Short version, we might never find an actual parcel swapped - it was just what the acreage came out to after routing.

As to the topo, I postulated to TePaul one day that when HDC took control of the land in June 1910 or so, it would have been pretty typical to hire the same surveyor doing the metes and bounds for sale to just stay out there and make a topo map, since it would be required for any development plan anyway - golf or housing.

If TePaul and Wayne find any of the old documents, I actually suspect the top will be by Pugh (?) and MIGHT have both the topo and the same road on it.  Of course, the deeds from 7-1911 would have the final road on it.  

There would still be plenty of drawing left for Francis to do on the golf side!

I may be mistaken, but I think Tom and Wayne are still looking for those surveyor maps in a few locations and may still yet provide us the final piece to the puzzle as to how MCC got from approximate to final in the routing and land parcel.  We can only hope.

So, let us also hope this is the "last word" at least for a while~! As I type, I see PM isn't giving up quite yet, so I guess I can dream on.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline - Stick A Fork In It!
« Reply #1699 on: June 18, 2009, 06:00:55 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but, what's the relevance of posting a picture of the current 1st hole/green ?

Weren't the 1st and 10th hole greens realigned/relocated prior to the photos posted ?

Wouldn't photos taken shortly after opening, when # 10 green and # 1 green were in close proximity to one another be more relevant ?

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