[DMoriarty]

Henry,

As usual, the information supplied by TEPaul is misleading at best, dishonest at worst.

The oft mentioned Ag letters establish that Wilson was corresponding with Macdonald.

[John_Cullum]

Gentlemen

I can tell you unequivocally, based on approximately 30 years of experience in examining titles to real property, that determining the origins of a given tract of land is not that difficult a process in the United States. You all have spent months bandying about this Francis land swap, and the various boundaries, courses, distances, etc. and it is just not that difficult if you know what you are doing. Do you want to fly me to Philadelphia to go spend a couple of days in the clerk's office to sort this out for you?

Note: This information will still bring us no closer to determining the role of McDonald or Wilson in the Merion project

[TEPaul]

Post #1083

[TEPaul]

"Do you want to fly me to Philadelphia to go spend a couple of days in the clerk's office to sort this out for you?"


JohnC:

That's not necessary. The two appropriate deeds I've been mentioning are very clear. I spent twenty years in real estate in Pennsylvania and these deeds are no different than any of the others I've ever seen from that era. The only thing that is a bit unusual here is Lloyd took a significant portion of HDC's land into his own name and held it at the same time he served on the Wilson Committee, and this is why he was in the unique position to make a land swap decision immediately and on his own as he did in the Francis land swap fix of the difficulty of fitting in the last five holes. Puttng himself in that position was completely preconceived and it also speaks directly to the fact the golf course routing and design had not been worked out which is completely understandable as Wilson's Committee of Lloyd, Griscom, Toulmin and Francis would not be appointed until the beginning of 1911. Wilson wrote that himself!!   

[TEPaul]

Henry:

The only actual factual information of contact between Macdonald/Whigam and MCC and Hugh Wilson I listed in post #1078. There is no more that anyone has ever seen. If David Moriarty as seen any other actual factual examples of contact between Macdonald and MCC and Wilson he should explain what it is other than his total speculations.

He has this odd way of saying things such as: "It is inconceivable there was not more contact" and in a day or two trying to pass as an actual FACT NOTHING more that HIS feeling as the actual fact!          He's done things like that constantly on here, and his essay is riddled with that. For instance there is no evidence at all of any FACT that Francis was involved with routing and designing this golf course until he was appointed to the the Wilson Committee in the beginning of 1911. 

I will be glad to put on here what those contacts with Macdonald and MCC and Wilson are I referred to which are the only ones anyone knows of and we can all see for ourselves. I don't even think David Moriarty has ever had all of them but if he thinks he has let him put them on here first so we can see what he has. I will guarantee you he has nothing more than I do and apparenly considerably less. He certainly had considerably less when he tried to write that essay which is one of the primary things wrong with it and what he said in it.

I will also list what he did NOT have when he wrote it which we have now and everyone can see much more clearly how he thought he could come to some of the conclusions he did being unaware of the additional factual information WE have found since!

Rather than just stating they are misleadiing he should explain what is misleading about the factual contacts and information I listed between Macdonald and MCC and Wilson. I'm quite sure he will ignore or dismiss this TOO because the fact is he can't explain that at all and he knows it and so the next best thing to do in his mind is to just state something is misleading (and dishonest    ) and completely refuse to explain why. 

[henrye]

HenryE:

No, there is no further correspondences between Macdonald and Merion on record and no mention anywhere of any connection orther than the followiing;

1. Macdonald's June 29, 1910 letter to Lloyd about his June 1910 visit to Ardmore;

2. The Wilson Committee's April report to the board that mentions their visit to NGLA (March, 1911)

3. The mention of Macdonald/Whigam's single day visit to Ardmore on April, 1911.

Thank you Tom.  Let's hope that you and Wayne can find some documentation which could help clarify this stuff.  Without complete documentation, I'm afraid everyone will continue to speculate.

Henry,

As usual, the information supplied by TEPaul is misleading at best, dishonest at worst.

The oft mentioned Ag letters establish that Wilson was corresponding with Macdonald.

David, I was merely trying to establish if there was any other documentation at Merion, which might give a better sense about MacDonald's involvement.

[TEPaul]

HenryE:

As far as I'm concerned those "agronomy letters" of Wilson's are now part of the Merion archive and history. Ask David Moriarty what those agronomy letters say that establishes Wilson was corresponding with Macdonald. And ask him when factual evidence of Wilson's agronomic correspondence with Macdonald began. Not his constant speculation, mind you,  ONLY actual FACTS! That's all he keeps asking us to produce, right? He should do the same, don't you think?   

[DMoriarty]

Henry,

Whether we are talking about the Ag letters, Merion's records, or even the deeds, experience tells us that any information provided by TEPaul and Wayne will be misleading and inaccurate.

That being said, I wouldn't expect them to find more CBM letters in Merion's records.   The June 1910 letter was in the records because it had been submitted to the board as part of a report.   I wouldn't expect to find anything that was not formally submitted to the board.

Tom, Wayne, and Mike act as if we should assume that nothing happened if it isn't recorded in Merion's records, but of course this is nonsense.   For example, Wilson wrote hundreds of letters just to Piper and Oakley at the Dept. of Ag.  But unless Tom and Wayne are sandbagging us again, NONE of these letters appear in Merion's minutes.    In fact, the only reason we have the Agronomy letters is that Oakley and Piper saved both incoming letters as well as copies outgoing letters, and the USGA has them.   

So whatever Merion has or doesnt have, we KNOW that Wilson wrote letters about as often as Mike Cirba posts. Given his penchant for letter writing and his penchant for seeking out the best expert advice available, it seems highly unlikely that Wilson would NOT have been communicating with CBM throughout this entire process. 

Indeed, though CBM was neither a sender nor recipient, the agricultural letters indicate that CBM and Wilson were communicating.  Macdonald comes up throughout the Ag correspondence starting with the very first letter.    And as usual, the letters themselves tell us much more about what happened than these guys have admitted.  Among other things, the letters indicate that:

1.   While TomPaul and Mike Cirba have pretended that CBM only contact was as TEPaul mentioned in the quote above, this was not the case.  The letters indicate that CBM was communicating with Wilson from the beginning of Wilson's involvement, and for months after.   

According to multiple reports, Wilson was appointed to the Construction Committee in early 1911. Unless Wayne and TEPaul are sandbagging us yet again, the first record of any activity on his part Wilson relating to the new course was a February 1, 1911, letter to C.V Piper, Dept. of Agriculture.  While Wilson was just getting started, his letter indicated that he and/or Merion had already been communicating with CBM:

"Mr. Charles Macdonald spoke of you and said you could help us out if anyone could.  We realize the value of his advice and decided that we would write to you immediately as ask you if you would be good enough to help us out." 

On March 13, 1911 Wilson wrote:

"I have just returned from a couple of days spent with Mr. Macdonald at the National Golf course.  I certainly enjoyed having an opportunity of going over the Course and seeing his experiments with the different grasses.  He is coming over in a couple of weeks to help us with some of his good advice, and we had hoped that you would be up before this and have delayed mailing you samples on that account. . . . "

Note that while he doesn’t mention it specifically, Wilson and/or Merion must also have been in contact with Macdonald before the NGLA meeting to discuss and arrange the trip.  Surely they did not just show up at CBM’s front door demanding that CBM help them.

Note also that CBM's trip down to determine the final routing is already in the works as well. 

- Tom has vaguely mentioned a June 13, 1911 letter from CBM about fertilizer.  What he does not explain how this letter came to in the Ag letters between Wilson and Oakley/Piper.   This is most likely because doing so would have proven that even at this date, CBM and Wilson were still communicating.   As Wilson explained in his June 15th, 1911, letter (with my s:)

I am enclosing you a copy of a letter from Mr. Macdonald.   Mr. Beale who, as you know, is the grass expert of Carter & Co., spent an afternoon with us and I told Mr. Macdonald to try get him to talk freely and criticize the Course in any way he possibly could. 

Mr. Macdonald's letter, dictated by telephone, was his report to Mr. Wilson from CBM's conversation with Mr. Beale.  Even at this date, they were still communicating.   We have no way of knowing how often they were communicating, but given Wilson's dealings with the Department of Agriculture, it was most likely often and about everything CBM could possibly help him with, including the plan for the course.

Also, there are numerous other mentions of CBM throughout the letters, and at least Oakley must have thought that CBM and Wilson had a working relationship or perhaps even closer.   On September 9, 1911 Oakley wrote:

"I just had an announcement from National Golf Course of their opening on the 16th.  I trust that you will attend."

No word on whether Wilson was planning to attend or even if he was invited.

So if these letters are any indication, Wilson was communicating with Macdonald.

2.  The letters also indicate that there was already a blueprint for the course in existence from around the time Wilson began working on the project, and it most likely was created before Wilson became involved at all.* 

- His first letter to Oakley Wilson referenced a contour map, and invites Oakley to Philadelphia to see "the Course."
- The next few letters indicate that the contour map was actually a "blueprint." Wilson continued to request that Oakley come to the site so that Wilson could "go over the Course" with Oakley.
- In case there was any confusion as to what he meant by course, later letters indicate that Wilson was looking into what to plant for rough to plant next to the course.
-Shortly after the NGLA trip, Wilson asks Oakley to come see their "new problem."

*No doubt Mike or someone else will suggest that the blue print could have been drawn up in January, between the time Wilson was appointed the time he sent the blueprint to Oakley.  But this seems very unlikely since it was the middle of winter -  Wilson's February 8 letter also indicates that they were waiting to send soil samples until after the snow melted.   Most likely the blueprint predated Wilson's involvement in the project. 

So, again, among other things, these letters help establish that:

1.  CBM and Wilson were communicating throughout the process.
2.   A plan of the course existed on February 1, 1911 and likely Wilson even became involved. 

__________________________________________

Many of the Ag letters were retreived by Tom Macwood, and we don't want to play games with the information in them like TEPaul and Wayne have done over the last several years.      There are so many letters  that I don't think it is practical to post them all, but I will try to figure out a way to make them available to those who are truly interested in them.

I hope this helps.   

[John_Cullum]

"Do you want to fly me to Philadelphia to go spend a couple of days in the clerk's office to sort this out for you?"


JohnC:

That's not necessary. The two appropriate deeds I've been mentioning are very clear. I spent twenty years in real estate in Pennsylvania and these deeds are no different than any of the others I've ever seen from that era. The only thing that is a bit unusual here is Lloyd took a significant portion of HDC's land into his own name and held it at the same time he served on the Wilson Committee, and this is why he was in the unique position to make a land swap decision immediately and on his own as he did in the Francis land swap fix of the difficulty of fitting in the last five holes. Puttng himself in that position was completely preconceived and it also speaks directly to the fact the golf course routing and design had not been worked out which is completely understandable as Wilson's Committee of Lloyd, Griscom, Toulmin and Francis would not be appointed until the beginning of 1911. Wilson wrote that himself!!   

OK, I'll pay my own way. But don't tell my wife. I can make her think it's legal business

[DMoriarty]

John,

The problem is that the "swap" most likely was not a swap at all, but occurred before the borders of the purchase were finally determined.  HDC offered X parcel.  Merion decided they wanted X + Y,  but didn't want Z.   But the purchase only shows the final result.

[TEPaul]

JohnC:

Accept that post #1088 as credible only if you are used to traveling down the Yellow Brick Road. A whole wealth of evidence was uncovered after that essay came out that just about completely denies that fanciful notion.

For starters there's never been a shred of evidence from anywhere at any time from Merion or anywhere else for that matter that Richard Francis was even involved in this process BEFORE he was appointed to the Wilson Committee that was appointed in the beginning of 1911.

Maybe you haven't noticed how many times I've asked David Moriarty to produce any evidence at all that Francis was involved in anything in 1910 and each time I ask he conveniently avoids the question. Do you really wonder why? 

Furthermore, JohnC, if you haven't figured out yet why that post #1088 makes virtually no sense at all for a number of reasons, by all means ask me and I will explain it to you in a very simple post.

[John_Cullum]

Tom and David

In all sincerity, what I have yet to understand is the importance of the "Francis land swap" in resolving the question of McDonald's degree of participation in the creation of the golf course.

With all of the beating up you two are performing on each other, you should  know that all of this has resulted in people learning that McDonald was part of the creation of Merion, and that Hugh Wilson should not be honored with ALL of the credit. I never knew that three years ago. I just considered Merion to High Wilson's design. In all likelihood, it largely is, but clearly he had alot of help along the way.

With that, I wish both of you well. Carry on, and maybe I'll learn something more

[Jeff_Brauer]

John C,

Don't Ask!  Don't Ask!  TePaul has never entered a single "simple post" on gca.com and is unlikely to start doing so now on a Merion thread of all places!

Funny thing, but pre-coffee I typed "Merion" as Meroin" before correcting it.  Maybe that is a more appropriate name given these threads. As in, "to read another one of these threads, I need a hit of Meroin."

[Rich Goodale]

John C,

Don't Ask!  Don't Ask!  TePaul has never entered a single "simple post" on gca.com and is unlikely to start doing so now on a Merion thread of all places!

Funny thing, but pre-coffee I typed "Merion" as Meroin" before correcting it.  Maybe that is a more appropriate name given these threads. As in, "to read another one of these threads, I need a hit of Meroin."

Meroin

I dont know just where Im going
But Im goin to try for the kingdom if I can
cause it makes me feel like Im a man
When I put a spike into my vein
Then I tell you things arent quite the same

When Im rushing on my run
And I feel just like jesus son
And I guess I just dont know
And I guess that I just dont know

I have made very big decision
Im goin to try to nullify my life
cause when the blood begins to flow
When it shoots up the droppers neck
When Im closing in on death

You cant help me not you guys
All you sweet girls with all your sweet talk
You can all go take a walk
And I guess I just dont know
And I guess I just dont know

I wish that I was born a thousand years ago
I wish that Id sailed the darkened seas
On a great big clipper ship
Going from this land here to that
I put on a sailors suit and cap

Away from the big city
Where a man cannot be free
Of all the evils in this town
And of himself and those around
Oh, and I guess I just dont know
Oh, and I guess I just dont know

Meroin, be the death of me
Meroin, its my wife and its my life
Because a mainer to my vein
Leads to a center in my head
And then Im better off than dead

When the smack begins to flow
Then I really dont care anymore
About all the jim-jims in this town
And everybody putting everybody else down
And all of the politicians makin crazy sounds
All the dead bodies piled up in mounds, yeah

Wow, that Meroin is in my blood
And the blood is in my head
Yeah, the gods good as dead
Ooohhh, God that Im not aware
I just dont care
And I guess I just dont know
And I guess I just dont know

Lou Reed (1967), as remodelled in 2003-2009 by Moriarty, Paul, Cirba, MacWood and Mucci--collectively known as the Velveteen Underground....

[TEPaul]

Richard the Magnificent:

I don't think I'm mistaken in saying a number of great old clubs of which I have been aware of and familiar with through the years have always been interested in collecting and recording in their archives a number of the little stories and jokes and poems and ditties told about them or at them in events throughout their histories and that poem of yours is just wonderful, all things considered here. I will print it and offer it to Merion's historians post haste.

Thank you for it!

[TEPaul]

"Tom and David

In all sincerity, what I have yet to understand is the importance of the "Francis land swap" in resolving the question of McDonald's degree of participation in the creation of the golf course.

With all of the beating up you two are performing on each other, you should  know that all of this has resulted in people learning that McDonald was part of the creation of Merion, and that Hugh Wilson should not be honored with ALL of the credit. I never knew that three years ago. I just considered Merion to High Wilson's design. In all likelihood, it largely is, but clearly he had alot of help along the way."




JohnC:

THAT to me, and to some of us here has always been the supreme irony of these Merion/Macdonald threads on this website. From Merion's perspective and from the perspective of those who have known the details of Merion's history, C.B. Macdonald (Whigam) HAVE ALWAYS been recognized by MERION and in its history and historical archives (committee reports, personal reports of those involved from MCC back then and board meeting minutes) for what they did for the club back then between 1910 and 1911.

I am putting on the other thread EXACTLY what Merion DID RECORD vis-a-vis what Macdonald did for them back then!!

The problem on this website is people like MacWood and Moriarty and obviously many many more just never knew that or understood it AND they launched into this on-going "Macdonald got minimized and Wilson got glorified" campaign BECAUSE they never UNDERSTOOD anything at all about the DETAILS of MERION's very own HISTORY when they began!  Apparently when MacWood launched that thread back in the beginning of 2003 he was not aware that Merion had ever said anything about what Macdonald/Whigam did for them back then. He said he'd just found two articles mentioning it and apparently he must have felt he discovered something Merion never knew about itself!   

This is why I have always said on here if someone is interested in writing a really informed and informative essay about the history of a club and course the very FIRST thing to do is go to the club before writing the essay so you can understand what their history actually does say about anything. David Moriarty and Tom MacWood don't seem to understand that very well or else don't think it's a very good idea or particularly necessary. It seems like their rational is one should never assume you can trust what any club has said about their history!

Moriarty's new approach and genre to informed architectural essay writing seems to be to write a semi-researched essay slinging a whole bunch of totally unsupported revisionist shit on the wall, AND THEN when you get roundly criticized for it, DEMAND, in the name of "civil discourse" that those criticizing you for it turn over to you all the research material you should've had in the first place but never did.

Tom MacWood, on the other hand, really is different than David Moriarty in this vein. He seems to be a real learner and now he has gone to the opposite extreme and has apparently informed Merion that he has found an article about the ground MCC decided NOT TO GO to in 1910 and 1911 but perhaps Lesley bought for residential purposes. I guess he wants to do an investigation (and perhaps an article  ) into where that land IS and what it might have been like as a golf course or perhaps who would've done it. 

From the sound of its geographical location it seems to me it may be Philadelphia Country Club today!

I think that one might be worth about 37 threads of at least 35 pages each over the next six years, don't you?

The upshot of all this JohnC, is that "information" (almost no matter what it is or what it's about) is considered by some to be the ultimate "CURRENCY" on this website. You know that; I know that; and apparently THEY believe that IN SPADES! 

[Rich Goodale]

Richard the Magnificent:

I don't think I'm mistaken in saying a number of great old clubs of which I have been aware of and familiar with through the years have always been interested in collecting and recording in their archives a number of the little stories and jokes and poems and ditties told about them or at them in events throughout their histories and that poem of yours is just wonderful, all things considered here. I will print it and offer it to Merion's historians post haste.

Thank you for it!

Thanks, Tom, but it's hardly "my" poem.  Lou Reed wrote all the words in 1967 except for the tyop of "Meroin" (for which Mr. Brauer Esq. deserves all the credit).  All I did was recognize the value of putting the two together.

Cheers

Rich

PS--do you wonder, as do I, that the verse regarding the "great big clipper ship" might be referring to whether or not Hugh Wilson actually did make a sly trip to the UK in 1910-11?

j-p p

[TEPaul]

"Thanks, Tom, but it's hardly "my" poem.  Lou Reed wrote all the words in 1967 except for the tyop of "Meroin" (for which Mr. Brauer Esq. deserves all the credit).  All I did was recognize the value of putting the two together."


Richard the Meroin Poet:


That matters not. I now consider you to be our inherited Philadelphian and you know what that means. We glorify our own and completely minimize the contributions in this city of "OUTSIDERS."

With that poem----Reed who? Brauer who?

[Mike_Cirba]

Wasn't Lou "Who?" Reed from New York or someplace outside Philadelphia?

What did he ever do?? 

[TEPaul]

Michael Cirba:

I'll have you know that when it comes to Reeds or Reids or something close to that name, they are almost never recognized in Philadelphia.

That peripatetic journeyman professional no-count John Reed who was all over the place including at my club, GMGC where he screwed up our greens by planting wheat seed in them and then stole our cow, requiring that Flynn and Wilson come in and fix them in '22 was really a bad guy and that UBER architecture researcher and analyst Wayne Morrison and I have recently proven that the John Reed, the creator of the so-called "Apple Tree Gang" that was St. Andrews in New York, the first club in America was just a figment of Washington Irving's imagination like his Ickabod Crane and the Headless Horseman in the Legend of Sleepy Hollow.

New York's John Reed, the Apple Tree Gang and St. Andrews in New York was just another fictitous children's story by Washington Irving. In reality the first golf course in the new world was in Philadelphia!

It was routed and designed by Algernon Z. Permutter, an aristrocatic Main Liner who orginally made his money in capturing and enslaving early Welsh people in this area and selling them into bondage via the Clippership China Trade! Had it not been for Permutter's august forbears the English would never have been introduced to tea!

[TEPaul]

I have just become aware of a truly astounding piece of never seen before old newspaper information that is bound to just blow the entire top right off of Merion's early architectural history and its connection to C.B. Macdonald and Whigam. Truly amazing stuff and coincidentally it emanates from that expert golf architectural researcher/writer that started all this stuff off on Merion over six years ago. This stuff is remarkable and when one has the chance to carefully consider it all it's actually extremely funny too. But I'll tell you one thing; it looks like Macdonald is finally going to get all the credit he deserves for what he did for Merion and Philadelphia back in 1910.

[TEPaul]

"1.   While TomPaul and Mike Cirba have pretended that CBM only contact was as TEPaul mentioned in the quote above, this was not the case.  The letters indicate that CBM was communicating with Wilson from the beginning of Wilson's involvement, and for months after.   

According to multiple reports, Wilson was appointed to the Construction Committee in early 1911. Unless Wayne and TEPaul are sandbagging us yet again, the first record of any activity on his part Wilson relating to the new course was a February 1, 1911, letter to C.V Piper, Dept. of Agriculture.  While Wilson was just getting started, his letter indicated that he and/or Merion had already been communicating with CBM:

"Mr. Charles Macdonald spoke of you and said you could help us out if anyone could.  We realize the value of his advice and decided that we would write to you immediately as ask you if you would be good enough to help us out." 




HenryE:

You asked what the extent of the recorded evidence of Macdonald's involvment was and I gave that to you. Are you as confused by what David Moriarty just said above as I am?

Wilson did mention that Macdonald had spoken of the US Dept of Agriculture (Piper and Oakley) to MCC but that was in Macdonald's letter to Lloyd and MCC on June 29, 1911. That was the only letter from Macdonald to MCC or anyone in it Merion and we are aware of. David Moriarty is now CLAIMING that there must be others but do you suppose he will or possibly can produce them??

Of course not. It's just more speculation on his part he tries to pass off as something resembling FACT, as he did throughout his entire essay "The Missing Faces of Merion." Why don't you ask him to supply any factual evidence at all that Francis was working on that land in 1910 as I have about a dozen times and I guarantee you he will ignore your question too just as he has mine!! 

He seems to demand actual FACT from us and that June 29, 1910 letter from Macdonald that Wayne actually found is the only actual factual letter from Macdonald extant at this time other than that June 1911 letter he wrote to Wilson that is of minimal to no importance vis-a-vis golf architecture. It's all about agronomy.



Henry

In the second half of Moriarty's Post #1086 he implies that I'm withholding some information on Macdonald and Merion or Wilson contacts and correspondences. I would be glad to make available to you all 2000 of those letters between the Wilson brothers and Piper and Oakley because mention of Macdonald comes up a number of times over the years but every single bit of it has to do with golf course agronomy and not golf course architecture. Unless of course one wants to include the parts of those letters that mention what a problem Macdonald has become!

Just a small item of rather great importance that of course David Moriarty completely fails to mention!! 

On the other hand, Henry, would you like to review hundreds of letters about fertilizer, grass strains, liming, carbonate of soda, brown patch and such as well as why Macdonald had become such a problem? 

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

I think I know this, but was it his ego or his drinking that had become a problem, or was it his drunken ego or egotistical drinking?

[TEPaul]

"Many of the Ag letters were retreived by Tom Macwood, and we don't want to play games with the information in them like TEPaul and Wayne have done over the last several years."


I'm afraid not Moriarty. Just another distortion on your part. About seven years ago Wayne and I were the very first ones to see them right there at Far Hills. If you question that call up the USGA Green Section's head Jim Snow and ask him or either of the secretaries at the Green Section. Those numerous files had just come in from the attic of a Mid-Atlantic USGA agronomist literally a few months before. They had not been seen or reviewed in many many decades and we were the first to review them and all day right there in the USGA Green Section's conference room.

It is pretty funny the distortions you try to get away with on here. Pretty funny indeed.  

[TEPaul]

"TePaul,
I think I know this, but was it his ego or his drinking that had become a problem, or was it his drunken ego or egotistical drinking?"


Jeffrey:

Seriously though, and this time I really am serious----I think that kind of thing really does require some looking into to do C.B. Macdonald's life and times justice, and I think it requires looking into with complete comprehension, and a good deal of sympathy or empathy or at least real competence. There is no question to me this was perhaps a real problem as time went by and the most interesting thing is those who knew him seemed to deal with it in a way that was really fair and even touching sometimes. Later, and unlike the way it had been with him with the Wilson brothers others would not be even half so kind. The end of his life including with NGLA was just down right Greek tragic, in my opinion, and I got that from a couple of people who were in a real position to know.

We really do need to know this part of Macdonald's story too because it will obviously tell us why many things turned out as they did for him and even why many things about golf turned out for us the way they did and not the way they might have been had he not been saddled along the way with certain things that he was.

I think it was pretty tragic and also touching in some ways but it is the real deal and it was part of what made up his fascinating and highly complex life and times.

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