[Rick Sides]

Mike,
Just curious, which ten courses that you have played would you rank above Merion?

[mike_malone]

 Rick,

    I rather prefer the Doak type scale as a jumping off point. So, it isn't a purely numerical thing but rather placing courses as "great" "very good" , etc.

   I thought that PVGC , TOC, RCD, Ballybunion, NGLA were "great" courses that I played. Merion is "very good" in my book along with WFW , BB, Lahinch, Plainfield , North Berwick to name a few.

    If a course is not great then it can't be in my top ten since I need to leave space for great courses not yet played.

[Rick Sides]

Mike,
That sounds like a good list.  Was Plainfield pretty cool? I live in NJ so I want to play it one day.

[mike_malone]

 Plainfield impressed me most with the quality of its restoration, the openness of the course to enable the playability to match the design intent, the use of the land for a pleasurable routing, the variety and interest in the greens. If I were required to place it on a continuum I would not put it near the "great" but solidly among the "very good".

[John Foley]

I seemed to recall the "White Faces of Merion" got trashed on here for a long long long time well before David M & Tom P knew how to spell CBM.

[TEPaul]

John foley:

It did indeed. That was the infamous "Bunker Project" era on Merion on this website. Another pretty shameful experience as well. Nothing wrong with critiquing some famous club's bunker project but it got real personal by some on here who really knew little about Merion anyway. I felt like I had the chairman of the Green Committee just about ready to come on here way back then because they were reading GCA on Merion anyway, but all of a sudden it got personal, he and some involved there were gratuitously insulted by some on here and it was over for them just like that.

In my opinion, that was one of the darkest days GOLFCLUBATLAS.com ever had. We could've potentially collaborated with some in some clubs and they with us that were involved in those kinds of project but that one time did it for good. And it wasn't just Merion----other significant clubs saw it too and just got totally turned off probably for good.

As far as me not being able to spell CBM back then when the Merion bunker project threads happened, not exactly. I'm 65 now and I come from Long Island and NGLA was one of the clubs I was around a whole lot beginning when I was 14 years old.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

This is what you posted in response to my suggestion that you not believe all contemporaneous accounts and that you should have an open mind when it comes to viewing the position of others.

But, since you're into parsing terminologies, let's see actually what William Evans said in 10/12/13  about Wilson;

"Mr. Wilson some years ago before the new course at Merion was constructed visited the most prominent courses here and in Great Britain and has no superior as a golf architect."

I'm sure that statement is one that some would like to chop down because I'm betting it strikes right at the very heart of the "new interpretation" of events.

It WAS CHOPPED DOWN WITH FACTS.

We now know that the above account is totally false, a pure fabrication.

That uncovering of the TRUTTH, that revelation was the sole product of David Moriarty's research.

Yet, you adamantly clinged to "The Party Line".

I only asked that you approach the discussion with an "OPEN" mind, rather than jsut trying to refute everything David and/or Tom MacWood posted.

You go on and state the following:

Because it tells us many things at once, from someone who was there from the beginning, a prominent member of GAP, and someone who knew all these guys like Wilson and Lesley and Tillinghast personally.   What does it tell us?

It tells us that Wilson made his trip "some years ago".   Not one year...not even two years, but implies more than two actually.

It tells us that he visited the most prominent courses not only overseas, but in the US as well, deflating the argument that he needed Macdonald's vast knowledge and expertise to get started.

What it tells us is that your source, a source you cite as infallible, was full of crap, and didn't have his facts correct.

I'll say it again.

When David Moriarty or anyone else makes a statement or draws a conclusion, don't be so quick to AUTOMATICALLY DISMISS it because it's contrary to "The Party Line".  Rather than dismissing it out of hand, consider for a moment, if it has any merit.

Discuss and debate the issue, but, do so with an open mind.

Initially, I disagreed with some of the premises and conclusions espoused by David and Tom MacWood, but, as they produced more information I began to accept some of their positions as having merit.

Many jumped on the "Partly Line" bandwagon and rejected Crump's cause of death and Wilson's alleged trip pre 1912, but, when the dust had settled, MacWood and Moriarty were correct.

So, I ask you and everyone to NOT automatically reject these presentations, but to study, analyze, discuss and debate them before making up your mind, rather than making up your mind first and debating them subsequently.

[TEPaul]

"It WAS CHOPPED DOWN WITH FACTS.

We now know that the above account is totally false, a pure fabrication.

That uncovering of the TRUTTH, that revelation was the sole product of David Moriarty's research.

Yet, you adamantly clinged to "The Party Line".

I only asked that you approach the discussion with an "OPEN" mind, rather than jsut trying to refute everything David and/or Tom MacWood posted."



Pat:

It is just unbelievable to me that you would say things like that at this point. Do you have no understanding of the important details that have now been uncovered by us that totally reconfirm Merion's recorded architectural history and who its architect really was?

David Moriarty most certainly did come up with a revelation on Merion's history----one single revelation no one there or around here at this time knew. It was that Wilson went abroad in 1912 and not in 1910.

That was it---TOTALLY---for any revelations by Moriarty. But what he tried to make out of that revelation with his essay was totally and complete distortion through and through. I can show you why point by point and step by step. Trying to show him why at this point I consider to be a real waste of time. Even when you put it all in front of him as clear as the noonday sun he just ignores, discounts, distorts and rationalizes it away.

And why? Apparently so he will never have to admit on here how wrong he is and his essay is.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Would you say that FAR, FAR more is known about Merion subsequent to  the introduction of David Moriarty's Opinion piece ?

If so, then David's Opinion piece served a valuable purpose, it furthered research that revealed far more than was known prior to its introduction.

At the time it was produced it made for a reasonable presentation.

If elements of his Opinion Piece were refuted, it was only through subsequent research, and not what was known at the time.

If you think that the sole positive element to come out of David's Opinion Piece was the revelation that Wilson had NEVER been abroad prior to 1912, and all the myth debunking that resulted from that revelation, then I fear you're viewing the entire subject in a very myopic context.

I've enjoyed reading the opinions presented by David, you, Wayno, Mike and others.  They've been most informative and interesting.

To a degree, I think the site needs more in depth research and analysis on golf courses, from their formation, architecture and their history

[Joe Hancock]

I think the Quarry Hole at Merion would be even more fun with the embankment to the right of the green tightly mown. Of course, I haven't even played it in it's present maintenance presentation, but hey, I have my wacky ideas......

Joe

[John Foley]

As far as me not being able to spell CBM back then when the Merion bunker project threads happened, not exactly. I'm 65 now and I come from Long Island and NGLA was one of the clubs I was around a whole lot beginning when I was 14 years old.

Tom - OK - you got me - I knew you could spell CBM but I'm betting you may have trouble with Raynor!

And there is now way your 65 - I know of no one 65 years old who has the internet savy for 6M posts. My bet is your actually Tom Doak's son - Tom Paul Doak - I just knew it!!!!

16 years old with chicks fawning over your golf architecture & internet savy.

Wait sorry , my bad again - That must be that Jordan fella out west!!

[TEPaul]

john foley;

I should amend what I said above. I've known a lot of those Long Island clubs and courses going all the way back that far. But did I know much about CBM or Raynor or Flynn or Willie Park and such back then who were the architects of those clubs I was around back then?

Well, we heard of them and we heard the occasional funny story about them and the course or whatnot, particularly Macdonald at the club I grew up at, but the interest in them from any members and friends of those clubs was nothing remotely like it is today. This is a new time now and we are definitely into a real renaissance that way with those early architects.

Macdonald is probably more famous today for his architecture than any time in the past including during his lifetime and there is little doubt that's true too for the rest of them.

Some on here may not understand that and may disagree with it but I am living proof of the truth of it.

But did I know those courses even if I didn't know all that much about who designed and built them? There's no question about it and I wasn't even that interested in golf until I was around 33-34. But if anyone was my father's son it would've been impossible to avoid not knowing so many of them back then. Basically, it was his life and I was a part of it.

If I had to sit down now, though, and really reflect on all the memories from those clubs and courses and times, the architects and the designs wouldn't even be a close fifth. At the top of the list was the people there and particularly the notable golfers my dad played with all the time and knew. Thinking about some of them today it's kind of awesome but back then I didn't know enough to be impressed. They were just the people in my dad's life.

And when I was about 16-17 I started getting involved with some of the boys and girls my own age from all those clubs too and that was another dimension. I didn't like golf much then either but that's what we did anyway---at least in the day.  Of course you could swim or sit on the beach but Man Alive was that the most boring pastime I've ever known!

Of course, if one even talks about or mentions stuff like all that today on here on a world wide Internet site it actually tends to piss some people off or make them------whatever! 

A post or two today from David Moriarty is the perfect proof and truth of that.   

[DMoriarty]

Fascinating thread.

Philippe asked a simple question, and offered a simple possible answer.  Why does Merion get so much talk?  Is it because it might be the greatest course to be on a piece of land that is the least likely to produce one?

Philippe, I can only answer for myself.  I think Merion should be discussed because it is a great course but misunderstood course that came along at a crucial moment in the history of gca in America.   Studying it and discussing it is worthwhile not only for what we learn about Merion, but also for what we can learn about everything that came after.   

________________________

Neither Philippe’s question or answer had anything to do with the Merion battles but were really about the course.  What is it about Merion?.   Yet TEPaul entirely ignores any actual discussion of Merion and instead launches into the usual smear campaign, insults, pompous pronouncements, and character assassinations.  This is essentially how these Merion "discussions" have always gone.   Dare challenge the Merion party line and face their wrath, but do not expect any real conversation about the course. 

But all the falsehoods about me and what I did and did not figure out are old news.  Rather than dwell on them I thought I might point what TEPaul tells us will happen to YOU if you dare cross him.   After his list of insults, and misrepresentations about me, this is what he wrote (with my bolds.)

“Believe me, I am not trying to be insulting or defensive or anything of the kind here but if that isn't becoming really obvious to most all particpants on here, at this point, who even remotely follow this subject, then I'm afraid I and others around here are going to need to seriously question what their worth really is with GCA analysis or what even they are doing on this website.

Did you guys get that?  If you disagree with what TEPaul says about Merion or me, then you are of questionable worth to this website.  Not only that but he and his self proclaimed “posse” might even think about running you off the site, same as they have tried with me numerous times.  To put it concisely, I wouldn’t expect any friendly rounds at Gulph Mills if you dare cross him.

I mean sure he doesn’t like me, and as far as some of you know, maybe he has reason.  But what has he got  against everyone else?   Why the threat?  Toe the TEPaul party line or face TEPaul’s wrath.   Is everyone on the website self-possessed with insecure egoist, milking their moment of sun for all its worth?  Are you all “really stupid” or “LIARS” or “dickheads” like TEPaul wrote about me yesterday?  Are you all whatever derogatory terms he comes up with tonight or tomorrow?   

Of course you are not.   But go against TEPaul on this Merion issue and then you are all that and more.   Forget reasonable disagreement.  No disagreement is allowed on the Merion issues, and it has been that way throughout.   They think they own the issue, and no matter how wrong they are, they will come at you with everything but the truth to knock you down if you cross them. 

I know most of you don’t know me or a thing about me, but TEPaul's posts are pretty telling indication of how YOU would be treated if you stood up to him like I have.

[TEPaul]

“TEPaul,
Would you say that FAR, FAR more is known about Merion subsequent to  the introduction of David Moriarty's Opinion piece?”



Pat:

If that question is a rhetorical one on your part in another attempt to gloss over what’s gone on here then I don’t see the point in me even answering it.

But if it’s a legitimate question on your part, and you really do want to know what the essay and particularly all these contentious Merion threads that followed it have wrought, research-wise, information-wise or otherwise with Merion then I would be glad to tell you.

Which is it?

[Joe Hancock]

... “really stupid” or “LIARS” or “dickheads” like TEPaul wrote about me yesterday? 

I always thought of you more as "left handed". Still derogatory, but not quite as bad as those other words.

Joe

[DMoriarty]

I always thought of you more as "left handed". Still derogatory, but not quite as bad as those other words.

Joe

Some think that left-handed, stupid, liar, and dickhead are synonyms.   

And just think, Joe, if you ever cross these guys about their beloved Merion and refuse to let them bully you into shutting up, then you too can be a "dickhead."  Or do you think they have different insults for right-handers?

[Mike_Cirba]

As a fellow left-hander I am outraged and wholly object to being categorized as either a dickhead or even a flautist liar! 

In a world of war, economic strife, disease, genocide, and starvation, the fact that we can sit here and vehemently and emotionally argue about the parsing of words discussing the origin of a golf course either means we're the most self-possessed, oblivious fools on the planet, or the most clever ones. 

[TEPaul]

Pat:

You asked me a question and I responded to it with another question to you on Post #38. Are you planning on answering my question to you and if not why is that?

[DMoriarty]

Pat:

You asked me a question and I responded to it with another question to you on Post #38. Are you planning on answering my question to you and if not why is that?

I have a question.    If TEPaul thinks he has something novel to say about Merion, then why doesn't TEPaul submit an In My Opinion piece setting forth his understanding of what happened, with the facts that support each of his conclusions?

That way we can consider his version in its entirety, and can critically analyze whether his courses support his conclusions.    Plus, since TEPaul claims he knows so much more about what happened than any of us, think how much we could learn!

Such an essay was promised about a year ago, but it has not been forthcoming.   Apparently, TEPaul hasn't had the time to sit down and type it out.

Tom, when can we expect your promised counterpoint to my essay? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

“TEPaul,
Would you say that FAR, FAR more is known about Merion subsequent to  the introduction of David Moriarty's Opinion piece?”

Pat:

If that question is a rhetorical one on your part in another attempt to gloss over what’s gone on here then I don’t see the point in me even answering it.

But if it’s a legitimate question on your part, and you really do want to know what the essay and particularly all these contentious Merion threads that followed it have wrought, research-wise, information-wise or otherwise with Merion then I would be glad to tell you.

Which is it?

It's a legitimate question.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"It WAS CHOPPED DOWN WITH FACTS.

We now know that the above account is totally false, a pure fabrication.

That uncovering of the TRUTTH, that revelation was the sole product of David Moriarty's research.

Yet, you adamantly clinged to "The Party Line".

I only asked that you approach the discussion with an "OPEN" mind, rather than jsut trying to refute everything David and/or Tom MacWood posted."



Pat:

It is just unbelievable to me that you would say things like that at this point. Do you have no understanding of the important details that have now been uncovered by us that totally reconfirm Merion's recorded architectural history and who its architect really was?

David Moriarty most certainly did come up with a revelation on Merion's history----one single revelation no one there or around here at this time knew. It was that Wilson went abroad in 1912 and not in 1910.

That was it---TOTALLY---for any revelations by Moriarty. But what he tried to make out of that revelation with his essay was totally and complete distortion through and through. I can show you why point by point and step by step. Trying to show him why at this point I consider to be a real waste of time. Even when you put it all in front of him as clear as the noonday sun he just ignores, discounts, distorts and rationalizes it away.

And why? Apparently so he will never have to admit on here how wrong he is and his essay is.

TEPaul,

I haven't communicated with David Moriarty in some time and I certainly can't speak for him.

However, Tom MacWood has stated that he will come out of retirement and participate on GCA.com again if you would provide the point by point, step by step analysis along with the timeline of events at Merion.

While I would think that this would be a lengthy process, taking numerous posts and several days, having a concise, chronologically based summary of Merion's history as you have explored and discovered it would be helpful.

David Moriarty,

When did you learn that the Merion meeting minutes were in the possession of the Merion Cricket Club ?

[Kirk Gill]

Philippe, I've talked some about Merion on this site, and I haven't ever played there. I haven't even been to Philadelphia since I was in Junior High School, and on that trip I didn't play golf at all (although I did visit the Betsy Ross House). Why do I want to talk about it? I think the course first registered for me when the US Open was played there in 1971 - right as my interest in golf was first starting. I knew the name Merion before I knew the names of the golf courses in my own home town. And David said it well, above, that it "came along at a crucial moment in the history of gca in America." and immediately gained acknowledgement as a great course.

Of course, Philippe, I may be reading your question wrong. Perhaps you mean "why so much discussion of Merion on this board?" and the answer to that is obvious. It is a result of passionate interest in golf, it's history, and its great courses, as well as a deep familiarity with the course that many on this board possess. Without a doubt David's essay prompted a flurry of discussion, but there were also Merion threads before the essay as well. I don't know a lot about Merion, but I know a bit about essays, and my entree into this discussion was David's open invitation to read his essay and critique it, which I did.

A lot of people have been put in unusual positions because of the debates here. The passion of the participants as well as their respective positions have resulted in a lot more sturm and drang than was perhaps necessary, but heated debate can be entertaining, sometimes.

[DMoriarty]

David Moriarty,

When did you learn that the Merion meeting minutes were in the possession of the Merion Cricket Club ?

It was sometime before my essay, but given that I was not allowed access to the documents, what does it matter?   

And Patrick,  please don't bother to ask any more questions for TEPaul.  If he wants to communicate with me then he's going to have to figure out how to grow up and do it like a gentleman. 

By the way, Patrick, TEPaul's understanding of what I have and have not contributed is nonsense.   Just another attempt to build themselves up by knocking others down. 

You are right, we haven't communicated in quite a while and that is unfortunate.   I hope you and yours are well. 

DM

[Sean_A]

It would be interesting and I think beneficial for all involved parties if Moriarty, Paul and Cirba laid out their timelines of what happened at Merion in a no nonsense, bare bones, bullet point fashion.  We could then see exactly what all the fuss is about.  But then, I get the feeling these guys would rather argue then come to any conclusionary (I don't think this is a word - do I qualify as a lawyer now?) consensus.  There is far too much double dutch and meely mouth nonsense to make much out of what is actually written, implied, intended etc etc etc.

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

It would be interesting and I think beneficial for all involved parties if Moriarty, Paul and Cirba laid out their timelines of what happened at Merion in a no nonsense, bare bones, bullet point fashion.  We could then see exactly what all the fuss is about.  But then, I get the feeling these guys would rather argue then come to any conclusionary (I don't think this is a word - do I qualify as a lawyer now?) consensus.  There is far too much double dutch and meely mouth nonsense to make much out of what is actually written, implied, intended etc etc etc.

Ciao

Gentleman of Merion Threads,

Look at this. I COMPLETELY agree with Sean. It can happen!

Ciao !!

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