[Philippe Binette]

Is it because it might be the greatest course to be on a piece of land that is the least likely to produce one?

[Dave_Miller]

Is it because it might be the greatest course to be on a piece of land that is the least likely to produce one?

Unlikely.  I think it is just the history and all the interesting and great happenings that took place there.
Best
DAve

[Carl Johnson]

Don't they have those little baskets on the "flag" sticks?  If so, that might have something to do with it.  Just kidding.  Never played there.

[David_Elvins]

Is it because it might be the greatest course to be on a piece of land that is the least likely to produce one?

Reasons it is discussed alot.
1. It is a great course.
2. It has flaws and quirks that make for interesting discussion.
3. due to tournament play, geographic location and generous members, a lot of GCA posters have seen it and are able to comment.

[TEPaul]

Philippe Binette:

Why does Merion get so much talk on here and has for a number of years?

I feel pretty strongly, and I'm being very serious now, believe you me, it is basically for one reason and one reason alone and only!

It doesn't have all that much to do with Merion itself or its history, it has pretty much everything to do with something else entirely and that is called David Moriarty!!

This man will just not let go of this subject and what were his incredibly clear (to us here), jaded, preconceived reasons for starting or continuing all this after MacWood started it around 2003.

This all has little to do with Merion's actual history or even Macdonald or Wilson and his committee and what actually did what Merion back in '10 and '11. This as everything to do with Moriarty himself, his self-possession which is probably nothing more than some form of insecure egoism and his moment in the sun here and how he has chosen to continue to milk it for all that it's worth and far more.

Believe me, I am not trying to be insulting or defensive or anything of the kind here but if that isn't becoming really obvious to most all particpants on here, at this point, who even remotely follow this subject, then I'm afraid I and others around here are going to need to seriously question what their worth really is with GCA analysis or what even they are doing on this website.

[Philippe Binette]

I don't mind Merion getting so much talk, I love the place, I just find it pretty funny...

[Joe Hancock]

Tom P.,

Surely this isn't the only place that Merion gets discussed...is it?

Don't blame Moriarity. It seems to have been widely talked about since it's inception.

Right?

Joe

[J_ Crisham]

It has great showers as well!
                                 Jack

[TEPaul]

"Tom P.,

Surely this isn't the only place that Merion gets discussed...is it?

Don't blame Moriarity. It seems to have been widely talked about since it's inception.

Right?"




Joe:

Well, yeah, Merion has always been talked about including way before and then during the Internet; the reason for that is it really is a famous course for its architecture and tournament history---but this thing about Wilson being glorified and Macdonald's part in Merion East (that has ALWAYS been part of Merion's history going all the way back to board meeting mention in 1910 and 1911) has never been seriously questioned until these two illogical and wholly uninformered birds, MacWood and Moriarty came along in the last 5-6 years on this Internet website. If you don't or can't even understand THAT, JoeH, then I'm afraid even you may not understand that much about the details of the history of Merion and Merion East and what has happened here in the last 5-6 years.

[Joe Hancock]

"Tom P.,

Surely this isn't the only place that Merion gets discussed...is it?

Don't blame Moriarity. It seems to have been widely talked about since it's inception.

Right?"




Joe:

Well, yeah, Merion has always been talked about including way before and then during the Internet; the reason for that is it really is a famous course for its architecture and tournament history---but this thing about Wilson being glorified and Macdonald's part in Merion East (that has ALWAYS been part of Merion's history going all the way back to board meeting mention in 1910 and 1911) has never been seriously questioned until these two illogical and wholly uninformered birds, MacWood and Moriarty came along in the last 5-6 years on this Internet website. If you don't or can't even understand THAT, JoeH, then I'm afraid even you may not understand that much about the details of the history of Merion and Merion East and what has happened here in the last 5-6 years.

TomP,

I can't even begin to feel slighted by someone questioning my ability to understand historical detail. It isn't my strongest suit, and I'm OK with that.

More to my point is the fact that there is so much more to Merion. Why, there's even a thread current on page one of this very discussion group that considers the design attributes and playability of the 10th hole. Well, the thread mostly talks about that, with a smattering of attempted history lessons thrown in for dexterity.(The only reason I say "attempted history lessons" is that I'm not the easiest guy to teach).

I loved the walk around at Merion, and it could only begin to reveal the quirks and complexities of how the golf course displays and defends itself. It's a museum piece for sure, and that deserves plenty of attention to history. Yet, it is still a relevant, vibrant course to enjoy the game of golf on, and I sometimes wonder if we have forgotten to admire the place in the context of the game.

But, just like Pat Mucci, I could be wrong.

Joe

[TEPaul]

"More to my point is the fact that there is so much more to Merion. Why, there's even a thread current on page one of this very discussion group that considers the design attributes and playability of the 10th hole. Well, the thread mostly talks about that, with a smattering of attempted history lessons thrown in for dexterity.(The only reason I say "attempted history lessons" is that I'm not the easiest guy to teach)."


Joe;

Believe me, like you, I just cannot understand all this ongoing discussion and argument over the original 10th hole of Merion East and to what degree an approach shot was blind or not. In my opinion, that has little to nothing to do with much of anything---and certainly nothing of anything to do with who really routed and designed Merion East back in 1911.

[Jim Nugent]

Why does Merion get so much talk?  Because it's a great course and there is a question about its authorship. 

Suppose an historian said Beethoven actually composed the basic structure and themes for Mozart's 40th Symphony.  Or Hemingway actually wrote To Kill a Mockingbird.  Or Cezanne painted Starry Night. 

[DMoriarty]

"Tom P.,

Surely this isn't the only place that Merion gets discussed...is it?

Don't blame Moriarity. It seems to have been widely talked about since it's inception.

Right?"




Joe:

Well, yeah, Merion has always been talked about including way before and then during the Internet; the reason for that is it really is a famous course for its architecture and tournament history---but this thing about Wilson being glorified and Macdonald's part in Merion East (that has ALWAYS been part of Merion's history going all the way back to board meeting mention in 1910 and 1911) has never been seriously questioned until these two illogical and wholly uninformered birds, MacWood and Moriarty came along in the last 5-6 years on this Internet website. If you don't or can't even understand THAT, JoeH, then I'm afraid even you may not understand that much about the details of the history of Merion and Merion East and what has happened here in the last 5-6 years.

Don't you get it Joe?  If you cannot understand that I am an idiot and this is all my fault, then you must be an idiot too!

. . . And that in a nutshell is why Merion gets talked about so much. 

[TEPaul]

"Because it's a great course and there is a question about its authorship. 

Suppose an historian said Beethoven actually composed the basic structure and themes for Mozart's 40th Symphony.  Or Hemingway actually wrote To Kill a Mockingbird.  Or Cezanne painted Starry Night."



Jim Nugent:

Yes, there is or was a question about its authorship. But don't you feel just as if someone questioned whether Beethoven actually composed the basic structure of Mozart's 40th symphony or if Hemingway actually wrote To Kill a Mockingbird or if Cezanne actually painted Starry Night, the very first thing anyone should do is analyze precisely WHY these things were being questioned in the FIRST PLACE?

My point has always been with these Merion Threads on here that WE CAN actually go back right here on this very website and find out precisely when and WHY Wilson's authorship was questioned in the first place and WHY it was then FIRST proposed that Macdonald had more to do with the course's authorship.

We actually have the VERY THINGS on here that were used to bring up these questions in the FIRST PLACE. Those very things were two newspaper articles that the questioner had found mentioning Macdonald/Whigam had helped and advised Merion in 1910 and 1911.

Clearly the questioner did not understand that he had not found something that was not known and always by Merion itself. What it said about Macdonald/Whigam in those two articles were the very same things that Merion itself had mentioned in their own internal administrative reports and minutes and what Macdonald/Whigam had done for Merion were mentioned by the architect himself and by his brother and others and by Merion's history throughout.

This is what we need to know now-----WHY this question on the authorship of Merion was asked on here in the FIRST PLACE and what all the circumstances were involving that question. When we all see that and understand it I don't think there ever will be much more to say or discuss about who (in the main) authored the architecture of Merion East and West.

Again, obviously the initial questioner on here had felt then he may've found some interesting new material theretofore unknown or long forgotten. HE HAD NOT. We told him that back then and we answered his questions about what some of the details were surrounding that time back then when Macdonald/Whigam were involved with helping and advising Merion during the course of three fairly brief events spread out over about ten months in 1910 and 1911.

Isn't knowing and understanding that pretty important, JimN? And if you don't think it is why don't you?

[Dan Boerger]

1 - Great course that will test just about every shot in your bag.
2 - Because it's short and still stands up well, it's intriguing to many interested in design.
3 - If you've played it, I bet you walked away from your first few rounds convinced you could score lots better, until you played it again.
4 - The primary reason -- there are many people who post here who are familiar or very familiar with the place.

[tlavin]

Merion is a national golf treasure.  It exemplifies the history and tradition of the best part of the game and we will see if the very best players will struggle with the course under major championship conditions when the U.S. Open is played there.

[PCCraig]

Because it's CBM's best design! 

[Eric Smith]

Jim Nugent:

Yes, there is or was a question about its authorship. But don't you feel just as if someone questioned whether Beethoven actually composed the basic structure of Mozart's 40th symphony or if Hemingway actually wrote To Kill a Mockingbird or if Cezanne actually painted Starry Night, the very first thing anyone should do is analyze precisely WHY these things were being questioned in the FIRST PLACE?

My point has always been with these Merion Threads on here that WE CAN actually go back right here on this very website and find out precisely when and WHY Wilson's authorship was questioned in the first place and WHY it was then FIRST proposed that Macdonald had more to do with the course's authorship.

We actually have the VERY THINGS on here that were used to bring up these questions in the FIRST PLACE. Those very things were two newspaper articles that the questioner had found mentioning Macdonald/Whigam had helped and advised Merion in 1910 and 1911.

Clearly the questioner did not understand that he had not found something that was not known and always by Merion itself. What it said about Macdonald/Whigam in those two articles were the very same things that Merion itself had mentioned in their own internal administrative reports and minutes and what Macdonald/Whigam had done for Merion were mentioned by the architect himself and by his brother and others and by Merion's history throughout.

This is what we need to know now-----WHY this question on the authorship of Merion was asked on here in the FIRST PLACE and what all the circumstances were involving that question. When we all see that and understand it I don't think there ever will be much more to say or discuss about who (in the main) authored the architecture of Merion East and West.

Again, obviously the initial questioner on here had felt then he may've found some interesting new material theretofore unknown or long forgotten. HE HAD NOT. We told him that back then and we answered his questions about what some of the details were surrounding that time back then when Macdonald/Whigam were involved with helping and advising Merion during the course of three fairly brief events spread out over about ten months in 1910 and 1911.

Isn't knowing and understanding that pretty important, JimN? And if you don't think it is why don't you?

Tom Paul mentions above that it's all on here.  And of course it is, warts and all.  But it is pretty cool to go back to the beginning, the FIRST TIME the question was asked on GCA. 

From 2003:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1388.msg27477.html#msg27477

Macdonald was evidently involved with the development of Merion. I never seen his name in connection with design of the course, does anyone know to what extent he was involved?

And to think it was ALMOST Chip Oat who first raised the question here on GCA:

Tom MacWood:

You beat me to this thread as I just finished George's book last night (including Whigham's obit) and was poised this morning to ask the very question you proposed.

Great minds think alike?

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul mentions above that it's all on here.  And of course it is, warts and all.  But it is pretty cool to go back to the beginning, the FIRST TIME the question was asked on GCA. 

From 2003:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1388.msg27477.html#msg27477"







Eric Smith:


Thank you so much for finding that really important thread way back there somewhere. I looked for it some time ago and couldn't find it.

It really will show us precisely how and why this all began and what went wrong and when. There was another thread back then by MacWood too about how clubs tend to glorify their architects that was sometimes around and sort of married to the one you just found.

There is no question at all that MacWood had a preconceived point and this was the way he aired it on here and continued to push it for a time. Somewhere along the way David Moriarty jumped on board his bandwagon by starting a number of threads that attempted to point out how Merion had been wrong about certain things over the years such as the accuracy of their hole measurements, the sort of architectural etymology of the original 10th hole etc, etc.

There is no question he was attempting to jar the door open in this way to introduce his primary point about Macdonald that has now been going on for years.

But if you look at that first post of MacWood's and my response and then Wayne's, you or anyone should be able to see from our responses that we answered MacWood's question the only way they can be factually answered and because of that it all should've ended right there back in 2003.

[Rick Sides]

I think the reason Merion gets so much talk is for many reasons:
1. A lot of the people on this site live near Philadelphia or have ties in Philly
2.  The course is perhaps the most brilliantly routed golf course on about 120 acres of land
3.  The course is somewhat shrouded in controversy about its creator
4. Merion truly is an amazing golf course.  I have played many of the top 10 courses in the world and I can tell you Merion is definitely worthy.

[mike_malone]

 Because Rick Sides can use the word"definitely" about Merion being top ten material and I can disagree.

[Rick Sides]

Have you played Merion Mike?

[TEPaul]

"3.  The course is somewhat shrouded in controversy about its creator."



Rick Sides:

Would you be a bit more specific about that? It may be shrouded in controversy on this website since perhaps 2003 but I'm not aware its architectural creator(s), certainly including Hugh Wilson has ever been shrouded in controversy BEFORE essentially two people brought the subject up on here on this website. I have never felt it was a subject that had much to it unless of course one is looking for some architectural details of who did what and such or came up with concepts of particular holes etc. We said very early on that that kind of detailed information was never recorded at Merion in the beginning and I frankly doubt that kind of architectural detail was ever recorded by any other club or course either, at any time. I have always claimed on these threads that if any participants on here really want to understand and appreciate just why that is they pretty much need to spend some times on architectural sites when these kinds of things are in the process of actually happening.

But to just assume and then virtually conclude that Macdonald/Whigam rather than Wilson and his committee routed and designed Merion East or were the driving force behind it is just as unsubstantiated and unsubstantiateable today as it has ever been.

Moriarty may not care to admit that now and he may never care to admit it because of the reaction to his essay but I feel that just about everyone else who's really familiar with the subject understands that now. Certaintly Merion does and they are the most important here; and certainly some of us closely connected to them understand it.

[Rick Sides]

Tom,
I firmly believe that Hugh Wilson designed Merion.  I just mentioned that one of the reasons this site discusses Merion sometimes was because of the controversy.  I think there should be no controversy and Merion deserves to be talked about purely on it's wonderful qualities.

[mike_malone]

Rick,
Many times. And I have played many great courses for comparison purposes.

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