[Scott Macpherson]

In doing some research I have come across an anomaly. I am interested in the feedback of the group.

There are golf courses in the world that are built on perfect linksland, by the sea, have few trees BUT have warm-season grasses on their fairways, such as Couch, Kikuyu etc. In your opinion can these course be called a links?

Is the ability to run the ball onto a green, and play 'bump and run shots', or putt from of the green (as can be done on links with bent and fairways) essential for a course to be called a links?

Are such courses still links, but a sub-category of links?

Your thoughts please,

thanks

scott

[Bill_McBride]

I think links golf requires allowing the use of the ground game.  Bermuda ("couch" down under I think) does in the winter but a golf course of kikuyu I don't think could ever be called a links course.

God I hate kikuyu. 

[Anthony Gray]

  Sub-catagory.........good suggestion.


  Anthony

[Tony_Muldoon]

Is the ability to run the ball onto a green, and play 'bump and run shots', or putt from of the green (as can be done on links with bent and fairways) essential for a course to be called a links?

.
There's linksland which can be defined by Geology and the grasses which grow on them according to Geography. But there’s Links golf which can only be defined by the game played on it and its traditions.  There was a recent thread linked to another that tried to list all the world’s links courses.  From memory no one suggested courses with that kind of grass but if you listed a few I might be persuaded to change my mind.

Golf courses with sandy soil also exist inland and that's not a subsidiary either.



Recently saw this one from a train. Anyone played it?  You can see the simple clubhouse as you pass and painted on the roof

"18 holes sea turf".  Setting looks great I hope to try it soonish.

http://www.dwgc.co.uk/index.html

[Emil Weber]

For me, a real links has to play fast and firm, so that I can play 'bump'n run shots and putt from of the green. I have never played such a course with warm-season grasses, but if there is no possibilty to work the ball with the ground, maybe you could call them 'dunesland-seaside courses'

[Andrew Summerell]

For me, Links is a geological term. Yes, we all prefer cool climate grasses & firm & fast conditions, but the grass doesn’t define the term Links.

[Sean_A]

Links may be a geographic term, but it has without a doubt become the terminology for a type of course that is accepted throughout the world.  True, the specific definition of "links" varies and to some degree it doesn't much matter except for a few things. 

A links plays fast & firm because it drains well due to a sandy base.  Of course f&f is a relative term, but the cool season bents and fescues can take the punishment of the game and weather and still bounce back with relatively minimal care on the part of man. 

A links has to be near the sea, hence the term "link" which connects arable land with the coast.  The sea doesn't have to be in sight, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know when you are on links.  Often times, links are near a river outlet which helps explain the buildup of sand which at times can reach mammoth heights - check out Pennard as an example of this.  Cool season grasses often have little competition from other plant species in these links areas.

I have played more than one course very near the sea, most recently The Ocean Course at Kiawah, which most definitely were not links.  I spose seaside courses in hotter climates cannot  support fescues and bents. 

Ciao

[Scott Macpherson]

Sean,

That's almost what's happening. A links course has to either be in cooler climates to naturally support the growth of bents and fescues, or have fairway irrigation to keep the cool season grasses alive.

In other words, if your definition of a links means it must have cool season grasses, a links course will almost certainly not exist near the equator.

scott

[James Boon]

Recently saw this one from a train. Anyone played it?  You can see the simple clubhouse as you pass and painted on the roof

"18 holes sea turf".  Setting looks great I hope to try it soonish.

http://www.dwgc.co.uk/index.html

Tony,

I have friends who live in Dawlish so I have played Dawlish Warren, but it was several years ago. I remember it being a fun links course but nothing special, though I had just played RND and Saunton a couple of days before... If you have a look on Google Earth you can see that the 18th has the clubhouse on the right hand side of the fairway at driving distance, with the approach over the access road to a green tucked up against the railway, with the lines protected by some tall driving range style nets!

If in that area, I preferred Teignmouth up on the hills above Dawlish. Its an Alister MacKenzie layout that probably hasnt changed much since he designed it? http://www.teignmouthgolfclub.co.uk/holebyhole.htm

Cheers,

James

[Ross Tuddenham]

I have to go along with those that say it is a geological term, so if the grass is a change to what would naturally grow on "links" then it is not a true links.

Maybe you could call it a links type course as in the features mimic those that would be found on a true links.

[Tony_Muldoon]

James thanks for the tip off, for as the Clubs Website proclaims with more than a toutch of that MacKenzie 'modesty'.

"Our designer, the famous Dr C A Mackenzie of Augusta U.S.A. fame, laid the course for the mere sum of £3,500, and some of the holes on the course are generally regarded as the best he ever did."


I will take my camera and report back.

[BCrosby]

Sean,

That's almost what's happening. A links course has to either be in cooler climates to naturally support the growth of bents and fescues, or have fairway irrigation to keep the cool season grasses alive.

In other words, if your definition of a links means it must have cool season grasses, a links course will almost certainly not exist near the equator.

scott

I think that is basically right. One of several things that distinguished links courses circa 1900 was the quality of their turf. At the time you couldn't grow grass inland that was nearly as good. That changed later as people figured out how to deal with clay and loamy dirt. But early on one of the markers of a links course was the unique quality of its bents and fescues.

I also don't think it's just a matter of the species of grass, however. It's about "turf", by which I think most people mean the combination of grass and dirt. How balls react to the "turf" on links courses is still unique because of the unique combination of grass and soil types found only there.

In warm weather locations, even if they satisfy all the purely geographical attributes of a linksland (as Price would define the term), they won't have the turf conditions found only in cooler climates.

Bob 

[Scott Macpherson]

Bob,

I'm with you. Two countries which have their number of links courses reduced in number by this purist definition are NZ and AUS. Both country's have massive coastlines, but the temperatures down-under mean few can grow the 'right' turf.

The exception is the South Island of NZ where conditions can be almost perfect – much like in the UK and Ireland.


scott

[Andrew Summerell]

Bob,

I'm with you. Two countries which have their number of links courses reduced in number by this purist definition are NZ and AUS. Both country's have massive coastlines, but the temperatures down-under mean few can grow the 'right' turf.

The exception is the South Island of NZ where conditions can be almost perfect – much like in the UK and Ireland.


scott

Scott,

As an Australian I have to say that although we have plenty of coastline, we don't really have a lot of links land. We have some courses that have a few holes on actual links land & we have plenty of seaside & cliff top courses, but Barbougle Dunes is about it with regards to true links golf.

[Philippe Binette]

Barnbougle is a links course, I doubt it was links land...

The dunes at Barnbougle didn't have the variety of grasses that a links land has... It was mainly marram grass imported to prevent coastal erosion.

It is a nuance but the linksland in Scotland is really an ecosystem and possess some aras that favored golf (low height grassy surfaces that became greens and fairways) Which is why the game was not necessarily played along the steep frontal dune (the Old Course, Elie, Fraserburgh, Prestwick), the grass was not approriate for the game.

[Leo Barber]

Bob,

I'm with you. Two countries which have their number of links courses reduced in number by this purist definition are NZ and AUS. Both country's have massive coastlines, but the temperatures down-under mean few can grow the 'right' turf.

The exception is the South Island of NZ where conditions can be almost perfect – much like in the UK and Ireland.


scott

Or perhaps the south of the North Island Scott?! 

[Andrew Summerell]

Barnbougle is a links course, I doubt it was links land...

The dunes at Barnbougle didn't have the variety of grasses that a links land has... It was mainly marram grass imported to prevent coastal erosion.

In geographic terms I would call it links land, as the term is not specific about the types of grasses that make up part of the link.

In golfing terms though, you would be correct.

In regards to defining links it all depends on whether we take the geographic/geological definition or the golfing definition.

Do we also need to define parkland, heathland, desert, etc. 

[Scott Macpherson]

HI Leo,

Paraparaumu Beach GC is definitely one of NZ's links. In looking at that part of NZ however it is interesting to note that the courses only just north of you (ie Waikanae, Otaki, Levin etc) are on the same (or similar) sand belt, but because they are predominantly kikuyu, cannot be classified as links.

This is where getting the definition of what a links is is important.

If a golf course is on links land, but the greens and fairways grasses are not traditional bents and fescues (because the weather conditions mean warm-season grasses naturally prevail) that allow those running shots, can the courses be called links? It seems to be the consensus that they cannot but it seems somewhat harsh to omit them? They seem to be in a links subcategory.

I have not been to Barnbougle, but my impression is that it is a true links....

scott

[Melvyn Morrow]

Defining a Links, this cannot really be described in words, as we know they can be very easily misunderstood. The only way to define a Links is by a photos. so here are two, Askernish 7th & Rosapenna 18th photo are my definition of a Links.




A Links course, has that magnet that pulls you to it. Its just shouts 'Play Me'.  Add to this the original Links courses still throw down a challenge to a golfer in that the AM game may well differ from the PM round. 

The Links - the first choice for any serious golfer. 

Melvyn   

[Andrew Summerell]

If a golf course is on links land, but the greens and fairways grasses are not traditional bents and fescues (because the weather conditions mean warm-season grasses naturally prevail) that allow those running shots, can the courses be called links? It seems to be the consensus that they cannot but it seems somewhat harsh to omit them? They seem to be in a links subcategory.

Scott,

Does Couch grass on the fairways count?

[Leo Barber]

The term "Links" simply has to be one of the most misused and misunderstood words in golf.  I am often amused (and sometimes frustrated) with courses that try and define themselves as "Links" and even more amused with certain courses that try and describe themselves as "true Links" when they simply do not display the characteristics!!  I think the previous posts have hit the nail on the head separating the siting of a course on linksland and those which display the characteristics essential to links golf.  The subsurface and the variety of turf are all important in defining a links (dare I say "true links" )  This was brought home to me recently when I traveled to Nga Motu (hosted the NZ Open 1980?) in New Plymouth, NZ.  Half a dozen of the holes are laid out over some beautiful linksland and I really respect the course but as Scott alluded to, with the dense Kikuyu the ball never reacted with the turf in a manner that characterizes "Links Golf".  The bump and run simply didn't exist, the ball never feed or released.  I have yet to play Muriwai, Waipu and Northland, three well respected courses in the Nth Island of NZ laid out on classic linksland with wall to wall Kikuyu, but I suspect these might play as Nga Motu does  .  Thought provoking thread Scott.

Barnbougle is simply stunning and one of the most clever golf courses I have played.  Hats off to the guy that shaped those greens.  Some architects put hips and the like into greens just to be a nuisance and because they feel they should.  The contours on these greens all serve a purpose and often in a manner to assist the golfer and not frustrate.  I always thought "Fun" was another one of those "in" terms used by the Architecture set but it certainly defines the type of golf that is played on a really really good links such as this.  The intent of the design would only be half as good as it is though were it not for the varieties of grass used.  The fescues are a treat and putting seamlessly from 30m off the greens is unreal.

 

[Melvyn Morrow]

If golf courses are being built all over the world, some on land as I call it, Not Fit for Purpose why are we worrying about the type of grass? A Links course is just that a course by the sea, or was. I do not remember the 19th Century designers referring to individual grasses but more the quality of the Turf (in general).

Of course we can get into the ‘Purest’ argument but does not the climate conditions not only dictate the grass but also the playability of the course and speed of Greens i.e. the effect on the course after a light/heavy down pouring, restricted/minimal watering at various times of day etc.   

My definition of a Links is a course by the sea.

In fact, I would go one-step further and question if the natural grass of the region are not used can it in real terms be defined as a Links course even though it is by the sea.

The modern design & build courses could be built in a central location (prefab courses, if you will), then shipped out to the various parts of the world and dropped on to pre-installed foundations. The only reason the course would be termed a Links is that it was to be installed on a site adjacent the sea. However, does that make it a Links Course?

It’s just my opinion, but modern methods could one day dictate that all courses are to be built on a type Ford Model T production line. Great but they will have no character let alone a Spirit. 

You may well laugh but no carts existed pre WW2 nor any electronic distance aids, but they are now acceptable (but not to all) and have diminished the quality of the game in my eyes, much the same as I thing prefab golf courses – if possible would do.

Who knows – should a links course have the regions turf, to comply with it being regarded as a Links Course?

Melvyn 

[Scott Macpherson]

Leo & Melvyn

You guys have highlighted for me the two sides of this tricky coin.

We agree it has to be by the sea and built on sand with not too many trees (it can have some- think of Carnoustie). so then it comes down to...

On one hand, to be a true links, no matter where it is in the world, it must have traditional cool-season grasses – i.e bents and fescues like all the great links in the UK,

OR

On the other hand, can it have grasses native to that environment  (– and here we are really referring to warm-season grasses like Couch, Kikuyu, bermudagrass etc) and still be a links because of its location?


I imagine there are thousands of locations by the sea in tropical or sub-tropical regions where you could build a golf course on a seaside sandy 'linksland', but only grow cool season grasses by having a lot of irrigation and other inputs. Is this a links? I guess it is, but it has required a lot of work/money for it to fit within the perimeter of the definition. I like the idea of reducing the reliance on inputs. Not just because of the environmental benefits, but because this course should be less expensive (to build and play). But now it is not a links??

Man, I just keep thinking we need a sub-category. And 'links-like' doesn't do it for me. Anyone?

scott

[Sean_A]

Leo & Melvyn

You guys have highlighted for me the two sides of this tricky coin.

We agree it has to be by the sea and built on sand with not too many trees (it can have some- think of Carnoustie). so then it comes down to...

On one hand, to be a true links, no matter where it is in the world, it must have traditional cool-season grasses – i.e bents and fescues like all the great links in the UK,

OR

On the other hand, can it have grasses native to that environment  (– and here we are really referring to warm-season grasses like Couch, Kikuyu, bermudagrass etc) and still be a links because of its location?


I imagine there are thousands of locations by the sea in tropical or sub-tropical regions where you could build a golf course on a seaside sandy 'linksland', but only grow cool season grasses by having a lot of irrigation and other inputs. Is this a links? I guess it is, but it has required a lot of work/money for it to fit within the perimeter of the definition. I like the idea of reducing the reliance on inputs. Not just because of the environmental benefits, but because this course should be less expensive (to build and play). But now it is not a links??

Man, I just keep thinking we need a sub-category. And 'links-like' doesn't do it for me. Anyone?

scott

Scott

To me its more logical to have a major category of Seaside Courses with sub categories of Links, Downland (think Southerdown), whatever some American seaside courses are labelled, etc.  The only problem is most everybody thinks of links first when they think of seaside. 

Ciao

[Jason Topp]

One distinction between links courses and recent attempts at links courses is a bounciness in the turf.  Recently built courses feel like you are walking on concrete.  Older links courses play firm but have a bounciness that is a pleasure to walk on.  I'm not sure if the bounciness comes from the age of the course or something unique about the land.

I also am not sure about the grass type criteria.  The Sandbelt Courses play an awful lot like links courses even though they use bermuda (Couch).  Despite the grass, that they play entirely differently than US bermuda courses.  I am not arguing that they are links courses but if you placed one near the ocean, I think the differences would be so nuanced as to be insignificant.

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