[Carl Rogers]

If trees are seen by many at ANGC as disturbing compromise to a grand vision, are the trees at Harbortown seen as intrinsic to the play, feel and identity of a course pivotal in the history of GCA?

'Good' trees on one course and 'bad' trees on another course???

[Rob Rigg]

Based on the TV coverage, I was floored by the number of trees at Harbortown.

Are there really not too many penal tree placements?

Seems like they are in the way on every hole.

Major chainsaw action seems to be required??

[David_Tepper]

I do think Harbor Town is a case of "good" trees vs. "bad" trees at AGNC. I have no problem with that.

AGNC, as envisioned and designed by Jones and Mackenzie, was meant to be an open and fast, running course, an inland tribute to the Old Course.

On the other hand, Harbor Town, with its shorter length, needs the trees to create and maintain the challenge of its design.

My guess is the tour pros hit fewer drivers at Harbor Town than just about any of the courses they play, with the possible exception of Colonial. It makes for a nice change!       

[Mike McGuire]

Hard to see on TV but Harbour Town is routed thru a residential area. I was surprised when I played how many residences were close by.  A lot of the trees have houses/ condos  just on the other side. I don't think it could play with a lot of width.

[Carl Johnson]

Isn't there a difference between a course that was designed to play open, and upon which over time trees have closed up, as compared with a course that has been designed with trees in mind, there from the beginning or to be there soon?  This is a general question, in the abstract.  I have no experience playing either Harbour Town or ANGC.

[Andrew Summerell]

I’ve played Harbortown twice & walked it twice watching the pros. I don’t mean to be offensive to those who are fans of the course, but I was totally underwhelmed on each of my visits there. I don’t believe the trees are good at Harbortown & if they had a little more room, some width & options could have improved on what is there today. Of all the courses I have played in the World Top 100, it’s the one that I believe deserves its spot the least.

Obviously, this is just my opinion & I’ve only played the course twice, so I would be interested to know from those who have played the course more often, what I am missing.

[Mike Sweeney]

I’ve played Harbortown twice & walked it twice watching the pros.

On my one family trip to Hilton Head, I passed on playing Harbour Town. It looks like I would have to play many of those holes with a 7 iron. I will continue to pass in the future.

Okay so Pete Dye has how many very good courses?

[Jim Nugent]

I was wondering why the pro's are hitting the ball so short (for them) this week.  The leader is averaging 256 off the tee.  The field is averaging 270. 

Is the weather bad, too? 

[Pat Burke]

I’ve played Harbortown twice & walked it twice watching the pros. I don’t mean to be offensive to those who are fans of the course, but I was totally underwhelmed on each of my visits there. I don’t believe the trees are good at Harbortown & if they had a little more room, some width & options could have improved on what is there today. Of all the courses I have played in the World Top 100, it’s the one that I believe deserves its spot the least.

Obviously, this is just my opinion & I’ve only played the course twice, so I would be interested to know from those who have played the course more often, what I am missing.

Back in the early 90's I played my first Harbor town event.  Couldn't wait to get there as I had heard so many great things about the place.  After my first practice round, I was astounded by the trees.  I was pretty good at, and comfortable with, moving the ball both directions, but it was amazing how many times I had to hit what amounted to a "trick" shot to get to a portion of the green where the hole was.  In one case, I was pretty near the center of the fairway and had to hit a low cut UNDER a limb to get to a hole.  I thought the course back then was a joke (I thought they had cleared some trees?).  Keep in mind, the way I played, it was still a course that I should play well (damn, maybe my game was a joke!), but after growing up in NY/NJ all I could think was that this place would get zero attention in that area

[Andy Troeger]

I'd never really thought of the two together but I could see there being an interesting correlation between Harbour Town and Sahalee. In some ways they are pretty similar with lots of trees, but the TYPE of tree makes a huge difference to me. The trees at Sahalee are really penal and definitely not 90% air. The trees at Harbour Town are of a nature that they create some pretty interesting recovery plays. Its certainly not surprising to me that it would get both positive and negative reviews here, but count me among the positive.

[Tim Gavrich]

Count me among the positive as well.  I only played the front nine, but I hope to play it again someday (and that's not even the dramatic nine!).

I like the strategic presence of trees and I think that Harbour Town has that in spades.  It is a more complete examination of ball-striking than most courses I've seen.

[Sean_A]

I’ve played Harbortown twice & walked it twice watching the pros. I don’t mean to be offensive to those who are fans of the course, but I was totally underwhelmed on each of my visits there. I don’t believe the trees are good at Harbortown & if they had a little more room, some width & options could have improved on what is there today. Of all the courses I have played in the World Top 100, it’s the one that I believe deserves its spot the least.

Obviously, this is just my opinion & I’ve only played the course twice, so I would be interested to know from those who have played the course more often, what I am missing.

Back in the early 90's I played my first Harbor town event.  Couldn't wait to get there as I had heard so many great things about the place.  After my first practice round, I was astounded by the trees.  I was pretty good at, and comfortable with, moving the ball both directions, but it was amazing how many times I had to hit what amounted to a "trick" shot to get to a portion of the green where the hole was.  In one case, I was pretty near the center of the fairway and had to hit a low cut UNDER a limb to get to a hole.  I thought the course back then was a joke (I thought they had cleared some trees?).  Keep in mind, the way I played, it was still a course that I should play well (damn, maybe my game was a joke!), but after growing up in NY/NJ all I could think was that this place would get zero attention in that area

Pat

That was my problem with Harbortown.   I am not a fan of being blocked out by trees from the fairway unless the fairway is plenty wide - which Harbortown's are not.  I can't recall how many times I found section of a tree in my way while sitting in the fairway.  Its not a very clever idea for a resort course and if it weren't for the pro event I don't think we would ever hear about the course. 

Ciao

[BCrosby]

Harbortown tends to get a pass on the tree issue because the course was designed by Pete Dye. He's a big name and he wanted the trees to play as they do from the get-go. They were a part of Dye's plan, so maybe we give him and his trees some deference.

Since the last time I played the course a couple of years ago, I'm past giving Dye that deference. The trees, as it turns out, were not a good idea, imho. Harbortown is not a course I have any desire to return to play.

Bob

 

[Anthony_Nysse]

I played HT many times when I lived on Hilton Head.  The trees are HT biggest defense, other than it's small greens. The course isnt long by todays standards, in fact, Mr. Dye intentionally kept it under 7000yds when the renovation occured in 2000. I think that it's WAY too penal for a resort golf course. THe small greens and overgrown trees-its no wonder they have 5 1/2 rounds. I know the superintendent well and it's a miracle that he has grass in area where there just isnt enough sunlight. Could HT use a tree removal program? Yes, but it's VERY difficult to remove any trees on Hilton Head that are over 8" in diameter. The permitting process is a nightmare and towns manager is a TREE LOVER/HUGGER/ NATZI. Many of the loblobby pines at HT are well over 8" and they do protect the homes that line many of the holes. One of the things you dont notice at HT are the homes and thats is because of the gentle line of trees protecting them from golf balls.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Joel Zuckerman]

I’ve played Harbortown twice & walked it twice watching the pros. I don’t mean to be offensive to those who are fans of the course, but I was totally underwhelmed on each of my visits there. I don’t believe the trees are good at Harbortown & if they had a little more room, some width & options could have improved on what is there today. Of all the courses I have played in the World Top 100, it’s the one that I believe deserves its spot the least.

Obviously, this is just my opinion & I’ve only played the course twice, so I would be interested to know from those who have played the course more often, what I am missing.

I've played the course about a dozen times, and have found that it grows on you over time.  The first time or two I thought "what's the fuss about," but over the years and repeated playings I've come to appreciate the subtleties of the design, and really enjoy the layout and the challenge.

[Eric Smith]

Jim:

You are right in regards to 11 and 12.  Though I left there after playing the other day with a newfound respect for that intimacy, especially on 11.  I was in good shape off the tee, 9 iron in hand, had 135 to a front pin, hit the perfect yardage, a high slightly drawing shot and BAM, that damn tree there protecting the front right portion of the green said no thank you sir.  I just stood there, fuming silently in disbelief, and one of the guys I'm playing with, who works there at HT says to me from the green, "Welcome to Harbour Town."  I still can't get over the fact that that tree got in the way of a sure fire birdie.  But I love it all at the same time.  It's different and that's it's appeal, at least it is to me.

Above is a thought from another Harbour Town thread.  In a nutshell, I am looking forward to my 're-match' with number 11 and if I'm presented with a similar task again, I'm going to try to hit a different type of shot or trajectory in there.

Providing opportunity to create shots is an admirable quality in any design and imo Harbour Town does this throughout your round.  It is strategic golf design, using trees (and you really have to see them in person to understand their use here, it's not so much always a big fat canopy of branches and leaves totally blocking you out, it is many times a really high, extended arm, reaching out over a green or a corridor that you can negotiate with proper trajectory) and small greens in it's defense.

[tlavin]

The only way I'll defend the tree issue at Harbourtown is to say that the pros would shoot 30 under if they didn't "defend" the golf course by narrow chutes and tricked-up tree placement near greens.  If the trees were removed, they would lose the tournament.  My guess is they would suffer greatly if they lost the tournament, so I'll give them a Pasadena.

No architectural integrity, I know.

[Kalen Braley]

Andy,

I'm curious about your comparison between HT and Sahallee.  While it sounds good as I haven't played either, even though the trees at Sahallee may be more penal, wouldn't the entire place look quite odd if all those trees were removed?  I mean after all Sahallee exists in a heavily forested area.

To answer Pats specific question, I would say yes, trees on one course could be very good while trees on another very bad.  Just like trees on a links course would look painfully out of place, big massive beachy blow-out style bunkers would look just as out of place at a course like Sanctuary.

[John Nixon]

Are there really not too many penal tree placements?

Seems like they are in the way on every hole.

Seems to me that a winning score of 20 under par indicates that there's not a real problem with trees being in the way.

I found it interesting during the telecast yesterday that several commentators were wishing the par 3 #14 (I think) had been set up to require only an 8 iron or so off the tee. As it was, everyone was hitting 5 or 6 irons and hoping to land not too far off the left side of the green.  I had to agree, that hole sure didn't look like it was ever intended to accept a mid iron.

[Jim Nugent]

Seems to me that a winning score of 20 under par indicates that there's not a real problem with trees being in the way.

Even more amazing to me, Gay only hit 67% of the greens.  I know he did well on the par 5's.  Still, how do you shoot 20 under when you miss 24 out of 72 greens?  Are the greens and/or greens complexes there pretty easy? 

[Eric Smith]

Jim:

In the scheme of things, the greens are very manageable as far as putting goes.  The reward for finding them!

[Will MacEwen]

Seems to me that a winning score of 20 under par indicates that there's not a real problem with trees being in the way.

Even more amazing to me, Gay only hit 67% of the greens.  I know he did well on the par 5's.  Still, how do you shoot 20 under when you miss 24 out of 72 greens?  Are the greens and/or greens complexes there pretty easy? 

I recall that a record was set for fewest putts in a tour event at HT.  I think the reason is the greens are tiny, and players are bound to have lots of "chips" which are really just putts from the fringe.  Those always help the putting stats.

I can't recall who set the record - may have been some old horse like Calc or TA3.

Edit = it was David Frost in 2005.
http://golf.about.com/od/progolftours/qt/pfewestputts72.htm

3 of the low 4 are at HT.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy,

I'm curious about your comparison between HT and Sahallee.  While it sounds good as I haven't played either, even though the trees at Sahallee may be more penal, wouldn't the entire place look quite odd if all those trees were removed?  I mean after all Sahallee exists in a heavily forested area.

Kalen,
These might answer your question as to just how narrow some of the holes play--yes Harbour Town is probably just as narrow, but the canopy is far different. I'm not saying cut them all down, but its rather excessive IMO.

[Kalen Braley]

Andy,

A very big TOUCHE on that one...wow those trees seems to be really impinging on play.  Well there's plenty of trees in the PNW I guess, certainly some of those only a few paces off the fairway won't be missed.   

[Carl Rogers]

One of the few threads I have started and I appreciate all of your participation ....

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