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Niall Hay

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2009, 11:36:55 AM »
As I mentioned before, willing to concede PV as a Philly club.

mike_malone

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2009, 11:46:22 AM »
 I wouldn't argue about which city has the best golf but I will say that Philadelphia affords the chance for the average guy to join a tremendous golf course within a few miles of his modest home. That is probably pretty rare in this country.
AKA Mayday

archie_struthers

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #77 on: April 07, 2009, 11:52:01 AM »
 ;D ;D ;D

Niall , you make me so happy. Only a gentleman , or a very brihgt man, or both could   reverse an untenable position  so graciously .  Thank you!  Pine Valley...Philly yes!

Mike Malone makes an interesting point about soils , which might be the basis for another thread.  It's funny how in the demographic area that is Philadelphia Golf turf,  how disparate the soils are.  Lots of sediment deposited over the years along the Delaware basin ,  and with the oceans retreat over Southern NJ we've got some serious sand,  but not everywhere , and sometimes within a couple of miles the soils are dramatically different.  This was definitely the case between Twisted Dune and Hidden Creek, which are just a few miles apart.  

Wonder if the soil statas are so varied thoughtout the country.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 11:54:19 AM by archie_struthers »

tlavin

Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2009, 12:37:41 PM »
1. New York
2. Philly
3. LA
4. SF
5. Chicago

Niall Hay

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2009, 12:56:03 PM »
I can see NY, Philly, SF and even Chicago....but beyond the Thomas Trio what does LA or SoCal have? Any variety?

Tim Leahy

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2009, 05:02:12 PM »
Niall,

While Colombus is a varied lineup, I find the San Francisco area very tought to beat..and yes while a few of these aren't in the city limits, they are only a few miles away.

1) SFGC - Tillinghast
2) Olympic Club - Lake - Willie Watson and RTJ
3) Olympic Club - Ocean - Tom Weiskopf 
4) Olympic Club - Cliffs - Morrish and Tom Weiskopf
5) California Club - Mackenzie, Macon, and Kyle Philips.
6) Lake Merced - MacKenzie, Robert Muir Graves, Rees Jones
7) Harding Park - Willie Watson

Bonus - Lincoln Park

Don't forgtet Donald Ross at Peninsula.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Tom Huckaby

Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2009, 05:07:53 PM »
Does Peninsula really count as a Ross?

It was my impression nearly all of his layout was gone.  The recent restoration tried to bring back his principles, but in terms of the course he created (Beresford) not much if any remains (primarily due to land not being used for golf course any more).

Do I have this wrong?

Kalen Braley

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2009, 05:13:57 PM »
1. New York
2. Philly
3. LA
4. SF
5. Chicago

Terry,

I'm curious why you went with LA at 3?

Niall Hay

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2009, 05:37:11 PM »
NY? How many of these are near the city? Winged Foot, Quaker, how many great courses are within 25 or so miles from Manhattan?

Here is the Top courses in NY per GD

NEW YORK
° 1 Shinnecock Hills G.C.
Southampton ★
° 2 Winged Foot G.C. - 25 miles
(West) Mamaroneck ★
° 3 Fishers Island Club
Fishers Island ★
° 4 Oak Hill C.C. (East)
Rochester ★
° 5 National G. Links
of America Southampton ★
° 6 Bethpage State Park - 35
(Black) Farmingdale ★ ◆
° 7 Sebonack G.C.
Southampton ★
° 8 Garden City C.C.
Garden City ★
° 9 Winged Foot G.C. (East) – 25 miles
Mamaroneck ★
° 10 Quaker Ridge G.C.
Scarsdale ★
° 11 Maidstone Club
East Hampton ★
° 12 Hudson National G.C. - 39 miles
Croton-on-Hudson ★
° 13 Piping Rock Club - 30 miles
Locust Valley
° 14 Friar’s Head G.C.
Riverhead
° 15 Atlantic G.C.
Bridgehampton
° 16 C.C. of Rochester
Rochester
° 17 Oak Hill C.C. (West)
Rochester
° 18 The Bridge
Bridgehampton
° 19 Deepdale G.C.
Manhasset
° 20 The Creek Club
° 21 Crag Burn G.C.
East Aurora
° 22 Saratoga National G.C.
Saratoga Springs ◆
° 23 Atunyote G.C. Verona – 22 miles
° 24 Sleepy Hollow C.C. - 31 - miles
Scarborough
° 25 Trump National G.C. – 35 miles
Westchester Briarcliff Manor
° 26 Fenway C.C. Scarsdale – 32 miles
° 27 Westchester C.C
(West) Rye – 20 miles
° 28 Shenendoah G.C.
Verona ◆ – 21 miles
° 29 Kaluhyat G.C.
Verona ◆ – 21 Miles
° 30 C.C. of Buffalo

If they didn't have any miles they were really far away....

Niall Hay

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #84 on: April 07, 2009, 05:48:27 PM »
I know there are some in NJ like Baltusrol that are very good, but again not many greats exactly right outside NYC.

Tim Rooney

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #85 on: April 07, 2009, 07:55:18 PM »
Niall, the following is my myopic Top (10): Muirfield Village,Pebble Beach,The Golf Club,Royal County Down,St.Andrews,Crystal Downs,Scioto,Muirfield,Ocean Course-----Last??Harbour Town,Ballybunion,Doonbeg,Spyglass?? The J.Nicklaus Team has created the following (Cols) New Albany CC course changes:  West(9)----- #4, par5 w/ water opportunity (Drive,2nd,Approach), Totally New Greensite-------Raised and Intimidating railroad tie removal with decline to fairway elevation, providing more Greenside forgiveness Front/Back for True Risk/Reward(JN,commented scores could be Good Player Higher);#8,par4 "New" 395yd. Cape Hole w/dramatic, elevation green movement; North(9)------#6,par5 New Rt. fairway bunker.In addition, numerous Bk tees' are being created as a progressive response with this '91 J.Nicklaus Course.Maybe we can arrange a visit or game?                                                                                                                                                 

Niall Hay

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #86 on: April 07, 2009, 08:14:42 PM »
Sounds good, tell me more. When do you recommend?

Ronald Montesano

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #87 on: April 07, 2009, 08:20:15 PM »
It seems to me that the top five should be New York, Philly, Boston, Chicago, and a dark horse (Columbus) given the public facilities available in central Ohio.  I don't think that either Cali city can compete with Columbus in overall terms of private/public golf. 

Did we determine a maximum radius from city center in earlier posts?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #88 on: April 07, 2009, 08:26:41 PM »
Not an exact radius as 20 miles in Columbus is very different than that in NY, LA or even SF. It is more of a "reasonable" distance/time limit.

Tim Rooney

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #89 on: April 07, 2009, 10:41:26 PM »
As a barometer, the Cols Outerbelt(Rt.270) is 52miles circumference;whereas, M.village and The Golf Club are slightly outside. I thought your restaurant interest was regarding a future visit ,hence the possible golf day per mutual availability?

Niall Hay

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #90 on: April 08, 2009, 08:56:14 PM »
April 17-19

Tim Rooney

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #91 on: April 09, 2009, 09:05:05 PM »
We can play 4/17(F)--New Albany CC($100/Apprx) or 4/19(Sn)--OSU/Scarlet($100/Apprx).Kindly confirm Sunday(4/12).  Tim   

Scott Stearns

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #92 on: April 09, 2009, 09:23:04 PM »
that we can even include Columbus in this discussion, and i think it holds up EXTREMELY well, is amazing to me.

New York is not really comparable-the east end has four great courses, westchester has 4-5 courses, Northern NJ has 4-5, but these are separate places---try to play Bethpage and Shinny in the same day without sleeping in your car--cant be done.  (no pat/tom/John etc. not "theoretically"--penetrate the Bethpage reservation system, get there 45 min-1 hr early, 5 hr round, etc.)   the idea of checking in at the Red Roof, playing 36 per day and having time to watch the sunset over dinner each night for three straight nights--thats tough to do outside Columbus.  maybe Carmel, but for 3x the cost.

I hope to do this in the next few months--those who do it before me--please post pics!!! dying to see them.

Niall Hay

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #93 on: April 10, 2009, 10:05:26 AM »
We can play 4/17(F)--New Albany CC($100/Apprx) or 4/19(Sn)--OSU/Scarlet($100/Apprx).Kindly confirm Sunday(4/12).  Tim   

Tim, thank you for the kind offer, in the meantime the rest of my golfing party have booked our tee times. Will have to do it next time. Thanks again, Niall

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #94 on: April 10, 2009, 10:07:02 AM »
that we can even include Columbus in this discussion, and i think it holds up EXTREMELY well, is amazing to me.

New York is not really comparable-the east end has four great courses, westchester has 4-5 courses, Northern NJ has 4-5, but these are separate places---try to play Bethpage and Shinny in the same day without sleeping in your car--cant be done.  (no pat/tom/John etc. not "theoretically"--penetrate the Bethpage reservation system, get there 45 min-1 hr early, 5 hr round, etc.)   the idea of checking in at the Red Roof, playing 36 per day and having time to watch the sunset over dinner each night for three straight nights--thats tough to do outside Columbus.  maybe Carmel, but for 3x the cost.

I hope to do this in the next few months--those who do it before me--please post pics!!! dying to see them.

Couldn't agree more Scott (obviously)!

Also, are the picture references to Cbus or Carmel?

Dean DiBerardino

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #95 on: April 10, 2009, 01:36:43 PM »
Niall,

I'd go with an Ohio city as the best golf city in the United States, but not Columbus. It would have to be Cleveland.

Niall:

As a native of Ohio, I appreciate your enthusiasm about the quality of golf here.  I have got to believe that Ohio would be near the top of most lists of the best state for golf.  However, based on your criteria for the “best golf city”, I do not think that Columbus is the best because, in my opinion, there is better in Ohio.  Your criteria, which is stated in the second sentence of your original post is:

“It has the best, most varied (both by style and design), collection of high quality golf courses and clubs in the closest geographic proximity of any major city in America.”

Golf in Columbus is varied and of extremely high quality.  Geographic proximity of the golf facilities in Columbus is good, even with all the orange construction barrels that seem to plague the roads on a constant basis.

In my opinion, the greater Cleveland area is best in the state of Ohio based on your criteria.

Starting with your top five in Columbus, while all are great golf courses, I have the following thoughts about them:

The top five courses you mentioned are balanced more towards modern rather than classical.  As for the rest of the courses in Columbus, most are modern.  Even the two classical courses in your top five can be viewed as modern even given their original pedigree.
 
Scioto – As a big admirer of this course, Scioto has to be one of the best Ross courses to be reworked by another architect (Wilson in 1963 and most recent changes by Hurdzan and Nicklaus).  There is a wonderful piece of land there with a very intact Ross routing, but that is where the Ross ends.  The rest is Wilson, Hurdzan and Nicklaus (which is great stuff!). 

Scarlet – You state that this golf course was designed by Mackenzie and Maxwell.  From Tom MacWood’s essay, it seems that the golf course routing was based on MacKenzie’s plans and that Maxwell was bullied off the job by some guy named McClure before having the chance to make any significant input to the design.  The course today seems to be more of Nicklaus’ interpretation of what MacKenzie might have designed.

All of your top five courses are superb, but seem to be more modern than classical.  Again, a majority of the remaining notable courses in Columbus are modern.  While this is not a bad thing, to me it does not equate to variety.

As for Cleveland, a majority of the courses are classic but more balanced with the modern compared to Columbus.

Most lists of the top tier courses in Cleveland would have the following (in alphabetical order):

Canterbury: Hebert Strong (1922)
Kirtland: C. H. Alison and H. S. Colt (1921)
Mayfield: Herbert H. Barker and Bert Way (1911)
Sand Ridge: Tom Fazio (1994)
The Country Club of Pepper Pike: William S. Flynn (1931)
The Pepper Pike Club: William S. Flynn (1924)

As for the rest, I’ll list them by architect….

Alison and Colt: Westwood
Pete Dye:  Fowler’s Mill
William S. Flynn:  Elyria
Michael Hurdzan:  Little Mountain, Stonewater
Jack Nicklaus:  Barrington
Donald Ross:  Acacia, Hawthorne Valley, Oakwood, Manakiki, Shaker Heights
Herbert Strong:  Lake Forest
Stanley Thompson:  Beechmont, Chagrin Valley, Sleepy Hollow
A.W. Tillinghast:  Lakewood
Bert Way: Aurora
Weiskopf and Morrish: Quail Hollow

Many of the courses above have either been positively profiled or discussed on this site.  To me, there is much more variety in the greater Cleveland area.  Also, any of the courses above can be reached within 45 minutes from the east suburbs of Cleveland.

You mentioned Granville (which is great and I would have loved to see it before it was changed!) in one of your posts, I think, jokingly.  If you are including it, then I would like to add some courses to the list from Akron and Canton which include Ross, Trent Jones, Sr. and Langford.

Again, I am a big fan of Columbus golf and would welcome the opportunity to play any of your top five in this post.  To me, based on your criteria, Cleveland is the better of the two.  Lastly, golf in the state of Ohio is great no matter how you look at it!
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 02:09:31 PM by Dean DiBerardino »

Norbert P

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #96 on: April 10, 2009, 02:07:19 PM »
If Sharp Park goes away, it won't be San Francisco.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #97 on: April 10, 2009, 06:00:52 PM »
Niall,

I'd go with an Ohio city as the best golf city in the United States, but not Columbus. It would have to be Cleveland.

Niall:

As a native of Ohio, I appreciate your enthusiasm about the quality of golf here.  I have got to believe that Ohio would be near the top of most lists of the best state for golf.  However, based on your criteria for the “best golf city”, I do not think that Columbus is the best because, in my opinion, there is better in Ohio.  Your criteria, which is stated in the second sentence of your original post is:

“It has the best, most varied (both by style and design), collection of high quality golf courses and clubs in the closest geographic proximity of any major city in America.”

Golf in Columbus is varied and of extremely high quality.  Geographic proximity of the golf facilities in Columbus is good, even with all the orange construction barrels that seem to plague the roads on a constant basis.

In my opinion, the greater Cleveland area is best in the state of Ohio based on your criteria.

Starting with your top five in Columbus, while all are great golf courses, I have the following thoughts about them:

The top five courses you mentioned are balanced more towards modern rather than classical.  As for the rest of the courses in Columbus, most are modern.  Even the two classical courses in your top five can be viewed as modern even given their original pedigree.
 
Scioto – As a big admirer of this course, Scioto has to be one of the best Ross courses to be reworked by another architect (Wilson in 1963 and most recent changes by Hurdzan and Nicklaus).  There is a wonderful piece of land there with a very intact Ross routing, but that is where the Ross ends.  The rest is Wilson, Hurdzan and Nicklaus (which is great stuff!). 

Scarlet – You state that this golf course was designed by Mackenzie and Maxwell.  From Tom MacWood’s essay, it seems that the golf course routing was based on MacKenzie’s plans and that Maxwell was bullied off the job by some guy named McClure before having the chance to make any significant input to the design.  The course today seems to be more of Nicklaus’ interpretation of what MacKenzie might have designed.

All of your top five courses are superb, but seem to be more modern than classical.  Again, a majority of the remaining notable courses in Columbus are modern.  While this is not a bad thing, to me it does not equate to variety.

As for Cleveland, a majority of the courses are classic but more balanced with the modern compared to Columbus.

Most lists of the top tier courses in Cleveland would have the following (in alphabetical order):

Canterbury: Hebert Strong (1922)
Kirtland: C. H. Alison and H. S. Colt (1921)
Mayfield: Herbert H. Barker and Bert Way (1911)
Sand Ridge: Tom Fazio (1994)
The Country Club of Pepper Pike: William S. Flynn (1931)
The Pepper Pike Club: William S. Flynn (1924)

As for the rest, I’ll list them by architect….

Alison and Colt: Westwood
Pete Dye:  Fowler’s Mill
William S. Flynn:  Elyria
Michael Hurdzan:  Little Mountain, Stonewater
Jack Nicklaus:  Barrington
Donald Ross:  Acacia, Hawthorne Valley, Oakwood, Manakiki, Shaker Heights
Herbert Strong:  Lake Forest
Stanley Thompson:  Beechmont, Chagrin Valley, Sleepy Hollow
A.W. Tillinghast:  Lakewood
Bert Way: Aurora
Weiskopf and Morrish: Quail Hollow

Many of the courses above have either been positively profiled or discussed on this site.  To me, there is much more variety in the greater Cleveland area.  Also, any of the courses above can be reached within 45 minutes from the east suburbs of Cleveland.

You mentioned Granville (which is great and I would have loved to see it before it was changed!) in one of your posts, I think, jokingly.  If you are including it, then I would like to add some courses to the list from Akron and Canton which include Ross, Trent Jones, Sr. and Langford.

Again, I am a big fan of Columbus golf and would welcome the opportunity to play any of your top five in this post.  To me, based on your criteria, Cleveland is the better of the two.  Lastly, golf in the state of Ohio is great no matter how you look at it!


Dean, this is a GREAT post.....although we can agree to disagree I would love the chance to be proven wrong. I'll have to take a closer look at Cleveland in the near future. The profile of Kirtland on this site is awesome and makes me want to check is out as soon as possible.  Cleveland is similar to Detroit by your logic as it has a true wealth of golf courses by the greats as well (Ross, Colt/Allison, Park Jr.). Anyway, great post and I enjoyed reading it.

Niall Hay

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #98 on: April 10, 2009, 06:01:43 PM »
PS I am not from nor live in Columbus.....

Adam Clayman

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Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #99 on: April 10, 2009, 07:01:40 PM »

Chicagoland wasn't brought up either. In my humble opinion, it is second beyond the Met area for Quality tracks.

Please name them?
Most of the Chicago courses followed the wrong model by covering their grounds with trees and ponds.

While the area has many many courses, one needs to travel to Wisconsin, to get quality public golf courses. Lawsonia and BWR being a couple of greats.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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