[Sean Leary]

TH,

It will be a Spaulding and Leary course. LOL.

Should have known better than to you ask that question of you. Tried to mitigate it but didn't work. Can't believe GD still has you on the panel. Can't they trade you straight up for Matt Ward?

[Tom Huckaby]

MWP:  note that statement was made BEFORE yesterday's awful Arsenal performance.

Just give us Cesc back and our full best 11, and I shall match our skill level against ANY team, including ManU.

In any case it was meant as very very tongue in cheek.  Giving stick to ManU these days is like saying Tiger Woods sucks.  One does have to acknowledge the obvious, as painful as that might be.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

TH,

It will be a Spaulding and Leary course. LOL.

Should have known better than to you ask that question of you. Tried to mitigate it but didn't work. Can't believe GD still has you on the panel. Can't they trade you straight up for Matt Ward?

Please.  GW would need to throw in some raters to be named later.
 

[PCCraig]

Also, why discount a course because it's 9 holes?

Ken

Ken, the better and more apt question is: why the slobbering love affair with a course just because it's 9 holes?

In my view, if Dunes Club had another 9 holes just as good as what it has, it would perhaps crack the Top 100, but there's no way in hell it'd be #24.  IMO, it gets at least a 60 point bump to #24 solely because it's a 9 holer and people seem to drool over that fact for some reason.

I think that it may be because it is a 9-holer that, because of the variable aspects that the course uses, plays like 27 holes.

I don't think it's totally fair to call it a 9 holer because of it.

And there is no way to compare the courses at Ivanhoe to the Dunes. Ivanhoe is fine and a nice complex...but there isn't a whole lot to write home to Mom about.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Huck..
I know it was tongue in cheek, but just could not resist a jab myself...
hey poor performance or not, in the hat for the next round..that is what matters.



Anyway, less important matters...rankings!


Can somebody please explain why Whistling Straits gets all this love?
Other than being a modern feat of engineering with its false humps/dunes/sandy areas..what is it that people like?
It is to me at least an example of ll that is wrong with "modern" courses...overdone, unnatural in appearance and exhibits nothing but fabricated difficulty..
I just dont see the cleverness in the design...engineering feat aside...

To ramk it above the likes of Ballyneal, Kingsley and Old Sandwich for example just stuns me.

[Ken Fry]

Ken,
  I get asked this everytime I post something about The Dunes only being 9 holes. I'm even a Golfweek rater, myself. I have not PLAYED The Dunes, but I've been on and walked the property. I don't think that it's fair to the other 99 courses that a course is rated on 9 holes. What is Pebble was only 9 holes-#4-10, #17 & #18. It would be the greatest golf course in the world, but in it's current state, there are 9 other holes to rate at Pebble that are not quite as good as those previously mentioned. I do not think that a 9 hole course shold be included in the list.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony,

While I'm surprised at the spot the Dunes Club gets on the current list, I would argue the love affair comes more from the connection of the course with Mike Keiser and the success of Bandon than the sole fact it's a nine hole course.  Dunes has been there for quite a while and went unnoticed for different reasons.

My argument would be about eliminating courses because they're 9 holes.  Over the years, there have been a number of courses reach very high rankings as  "composite" courses.  How is taking some holes from multiple courses and creating other holes just to accomodate a composite routing looked upon differently?

I'm still waiting to see a course built with a configuration less than 18 holes (12, 14, etc.) that architecturally would blow people away.  Architects have made a similar comment but mutually agree a developer would not take a chance on such a project.

Ken

[Mike_Cirba]

Can somebody please explain why Whistling Straits gets all this love?
Other than being a modern feat of engineering with its false humps/dunes/sandy areas..what is it that people like?

It is to me at least an example of ll that is wrong with "modern" courses...overdone, unnatural in appearance and exhibits nothing but fabricated difficulty..
I just dont see the cleverness in the design...engineering feat aside...

To ramk it above the likes of Ballyneal, Kingsley and Old Sandwich for example just stuns me.

Michael,

I could not agree with you more.

Despite a few admittedly cool "post-card" holes that look like that calendar of fake, obviously brutal animated golf holes that were all the rage about a decade ago, the course doesn't even fake trying to look natural very well and holes like the 5th and the 18th are just horrific golf holes.   

[brad_miller]

Classic List Comment- I was disappointed to not find Sleepy Hollow on the list. Given the wonderful almost "all in effort" to restore/create a classic MacDonald/Raynor layout it is now maybe the BEST WALK and most FUN to play course in NYC's northern suberb.  That said maybe not enough raters have seen it at its new found glory. They have continued to remove trees and open up vistas of the Hudson River. If we (us fans of classic GCA) want to see great restorations we have to reward those that take the challenge on. Let Sleepy find its proper place in the 60-80 range in 2010.

[JNC Lyon]

I think Yeaman's Hall at #38 is quite interesting, and would even suggest it is a GCA favorite.  Tom Doak rates it a 5 in his book, and has said numerous times that a good restoration might raise the course one notch on his rating scale.  But based on his commentary in the book  "Too bad about the greens; fixed up, Yeaman's Hall would be terrific.", I would guess Tom would rate the course a 7.

Yeamans Hall is difficult to judge from that because it has been so vastly improved over the past decade.  I know the greens have been fully expanded and restored their original condition, and the Raynor bunkering has return to its former glory.  When I played the course a year ago, I was extremely impressed.  I always thought of Raynor as an architect who thrived on engineering and manufactured features, but Yeamans Hall is so great because of the way Raynor uses the rolling terrain. 

Holes 6-9 demonstrate this perfectly.  6 is a slightly down hill redan that uses the right-to-left slope of the land gracefully.  Seven climbs uphill, turning a 420 par four into the hardest hole on the course.  8 then turns 90 degrees and tumbles downhill to a green set along Goose Creek.  9 then climbs back to the clubhouse, with a bunkers cut perfectly into the hill to break up the climb off the tee.  I could not image a better sequence for each of these holes.  While all of them contain manufactured elements, Raynor's use of the land maximizes their potential.

Overall, Yeamans Hall does not have any clear weak holes like I have found at other top rated courses, including Garden City (5, 12), The Ocean Course (1, 15), The Country Club (1), or Oak Hill East (5, 6, 15).  Holes like 1, 3, 6, 14, 17, and 18 are highly original and stand up to holes anywhere in American Golf.  The course is maintained exactly as a golf course should be: firm, fast, and not over-manicured.  I am very pleased to see Yeamans Hall where it is on the Golfweek list.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Overall, Yeamans Hall does not have any clear weak holes like I have found at other top rated courses, including Garden City (5, 12), The Ocean Course (1, 15), The Country Club (1), or Oak Hill East (5, 6, 15). 

Interesting you should say this.  I was speaking to Nick Price during the Senior PGA and he said that No. 15 at The Ocean Course was one of the best holes he'd ever seen.  He said that its natural look made it seem like it had been there for 100 years.  I guess it is a matter of personal opinion.

[Mike_DeVries]

DeVries, you dope, it didn't just make the list. It made the cover (see the Web site teaser).

Brad,

I am really excited to see my copy now -- didn't know it was on the cover as I have been on the road for the last week (and we get ours a little later here in the great white north!)

Cheers,
Mike

[Mike_Cirba]

Classic List Comment- I was disappointed to not find Sleepy Hollow on the list. Given the wonderful almost "all in effort" to restore/create a classic MacDonald/Raynor layout it is now maybe the BEST WALK and most FUN to play course in NYC's northern suberb.  That said maybe not enough raters have seen it at its new found glory. They have continued to remove trees and open up vistas of the Hudson River. If we (us fans of classic GCA) want to see great restorations we have to reward those that take the challenge on. Let Sleepy find its proper place in the 60-80 range in 2010.

Brad,

I would agree that anyone who has played Sleeply Hollow in the past should make every attempt to revisit, as it has been GREATLY improved and is probably now a good 1.5 Doak Scale points higher than prior.

It now takes great advantage of the stellar property instead of hiding it.

[Sean Leary]

Classic List Comment- I was disappointed to not find Sleepy Hollow on the list. Given the wonderful almost "all in effort" to restore/create a classic MacDonald/Raynor layout it is now maybe the BEST WALK and most FUN to play course in NYC's northern suberb.  That said maybe not enough raters have seen it at its new found glory. They have continued to remove trees and open up vistas of the Hudson River. If we (us fans of classic GCA) want to see great restorations we have to reward those that take the challenge on. Let Sleepy find its proper place in the 60-80 range in 2010.

How long do the scores hold over in the rankings?

[brad_miller]

Mike,

1.5 Doak points higher would put it at 8.5, but then again Tom has stated that he takes that into account. I think of it as a really strong 7 or 7.5 if you will. To take it higher it would need closer to world class greens IMHO.

[Garland Bayley]

I agree a 9 holer shouldn't be in this list. If you had a list of 100 top 36 hole facilities, would you allow Black Mesa on the list because they are thinking about being 36 holes?

If you want 9 holers on a list, then make a 9 holer list. Or, rank each 9 of each course and then besides the list of 18 holers, give a list of 9 holers where #1 is County Down Front, #2 is Whistling Straits Back, etc. It's only a database query on existing data.

[Sean_A]

Huck

I agree with you.  This dual list is nothing more than pussy footing about.  Classic?  Modern? What is the difference so long as its good?

I don't know why folks are getting bent out of shape about a 9 holer.  The question isn't how many holes the curse has, but how good the course is.  I would agree that it will be harder for a 9 holer to impress, but if it does impress that is really saying something.  For anti short holers out there - what if a course were say 15 holes.  How bout 17 holes?  Should they not be considered or qre you lot just down on 9 holers?

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck

I agree with you.  This dual list is nothing more than pussy footing about.  Classic?  Modern? What is the difference so long as its good?

I concur with that.. just note however that my take is more about giving friends a hard time than anything of substance.

 

[Brad Klein]

Why would you rule out 25% of all U.S. courses from the mix just because they are 9-holers?

[Garland Bayley]

Why would you rule out 25% of all U.S. courses from the mix just because they are 9-holers?

Apples to apples Brad, apples to apples.

[Tim Bert]

A comment went unchecked that 3 firms had all of the top 9 moderns. Just wanted to throw out there that Kidd has one too so is 4 firms.

[tlavin]

A couple observations:

I just don't understand the dissing (from some) of Bandon Dunes.  From tee to green, one through 18, it's a top-notch golf course and one that absolutely transformed the game of golf in America.  It's surely a Top Ten course, even if it has to come in behind Pacific Dunes in my mind.

I was happy to see Beverly stay (just barely) in the Top 100 of the Classic list, but I will freely admit that we need to greatly improve our maintenance if we expect to remain on the list next year.

Olympia Fields (South) and its newly revamped neighbor, Flossmoor CC, might be a threat to sneak into the Top 100 next year.

As for the Dunes Club, I'm torn.  I'm a member and I think the place is just terrific, but it is ONLY 9 holes.  And, contrary to Pat Craig's opinion, no matter where you put the tee in the ground, it's still only 9 holes, so it's tough to fairly compare it to the courses that have 18 holes.  On the other hand, there is no comparison if you're looking at other 9 hole layouts, so maybe it is fair to put it in with the rest of the courses.  As for the tree issue brought up by a couple observers, I will say that it LOOKS like it is "over-treed" but it doesn't (with one very notable exception) PLAY that way.  To me it looks just as over-treed as Pine Valley does and I don't know how many people hereabouts would go on a tree cutting extravaganza at Pine Valley.  There have been a number of offending trees cut down at the Dunes in the past couple years, but there is still (in my opinion) a major issue on the 8th hole that needs to be addressed.  Mr. Keiser disagrees and he's Mr. Keiser, so he wins!

[Mark Pritchett]

When will we see the GolfWeek Top 100 Nine Hole Course list?

Classic and Modern 

[PCCraig]

Edit.

[PCCraig]

As for the Dunes Club, I'm torn.  I'm a member and I think the place is just terrific, but it is ONLY 9 holes.  And, contrary to Pat Craig's opinion, no matter where you put the tee in the ground, it's still only 9 holes, so it's tough to fairly compare it to the courses that have 18 holes.  On the other hand, there is no comparison if you're looking at other 9 hole layouts, so maybe it is fair to put it in with the rest of the courses.  As for the tree issue brought up by a couple observers, I will say that it LOOKS like it is "over-treed" but it doesn't (with one very notable exception) PLAY that way.  To me it looks just as over-treed as Pine Valley does and I don't know how many people hereabouts would go on a tree cutting extravaganza at Pine Valley.  There have been a number of offending trees cut down at the Dunes in the past couple years, but there is still (in my opinion) a major issue on the 8th hole that needs to be addressed.  Mr. Keiser disagrees and he's Mr. Keiser, so he wins!

Terry-

Putting aside the actual number ranking of #24. Are you saying that you would rather play all 199 courses on the two lists before the Dunes Club?

[tlavin]

As for the Dunes Club, I'm torn.  I'm a member and I think the place is just terrific, but it is ONLY 9 holes.  And, contrary to Pat Craig's opinion, no matter where you put the tee in the ground, it's still only 9 holes, so it's tough to fairly compare it to the courses that have 18 holes.  On the other hand, there is no comparison if you're looking at other 9 hole layouts, so maybe it is fair to put it in with the rest of the courses.  As for the tree issue brought up by a couple observers, I will say that it LOOKS like it is "over-treed" but it doesn't (with one very notable exception) PLAY that way.  To me it looks just as over-treed as Pine Valley does and I don't know how many people hereabouts would go on a tree cutting extravaganza at Pine Valley.  There have been a number of offending trees cut down at the Dunes in the past couple years, but there is still (in my opinion) a major issue on the 8th hole that needs to be addressed.  Mr. Keiser disagrees and he's Mr. Keiser, so he wins!

Terry-

Putting aside the actual number ranking of #24. Are you saying that you would rather play all 199 courses on the two lists before the Dunes Club?

Uh, duh, no I'm not, but I am saying that there is a legitimate question of whether it's "fair" to compare a nine hole course to an 18 hole course, in terms of rating them.  It surely is fair to compare them in your own mind and I had to do that when I decided whether to join Lost Dunes or the Dunes Club.  Lost Dunes is great, has unbelievable greens, a great design and an terrific club house.  The Dunes has nine unbelievable holes, with great greens and an ambiance that is unmatched in my experience hereabouts.  Despite the fact that there's no practice facility to speak of and one of the country's smallest clubhouses, I prefer the Dunes.  I don't know if it is "right" however, to rate it alongside Lost Dunes because of the 18 hole issue.

Also, to follow up on Schmidt's point, it is unbelievable to me that Butler National isn't on the list of top moderns.  I would rate it fairly highly.

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