Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists

« **Reply #75 on:** March 11, 2009, 11:30:19 PM »

I do not think Bandon Dunes is top 10 modern either. It is very very good but not great. The design weaknesses in routing and several holes overcome some really great great holes.

« **Reply #76 on:** March 12, 2009, 12:12:58 AM »

I am psyched...Witch Hollow #71 and Cal Club #60. Although I think Cal Club will continue to rise once more people have the chance to play it.

« **Reply #77 on:** March 12, 2009, 12:35:10 AM »

Quote from: Brad Klein on March 11, 2009, 09:52:08 PM

DeVries, you dope, it didn't just make the list. It made the cover (see the Web site teaser).

Brad, any chance GW will do a combined ranking, with modern and classic on the same list? This could be in addition to the separate rankings you have now.

« **Reply #78 on:** March 12, 2009, 12:49:15 AM »

Quote from: George Freeman on March 11, 2009, 08:59:50 PM

Biggest winners and losers according to the posted data:

Modern - Winners:

Colorado GC - 77 spots (from NR)
Fallen Oak - 45 (from NR)
Boston GC - 22
Estancia - 21 (from NR)
McArthur - 19 (from NR) I don't know anything about this course?
Butler National - 15
Cassique - 14

Modern - Losers:

Hawks Ridge - (35)
Black Mesa - (21)
Briggs Ranch - (18)
Concession - (15)
Harvester - (15)
Forest Creek North - (15)

Classic - Winners:

Cal Club - 40 (from NR)
Canterbury - 10
Ekwanok - 10
Sankaty Head - 9
Indianwood (Old) - 9 Good to see, great course
Milwaulkee - 9

Classic - Losers:

CC of Fairfield - (21)
Engineers - (19)
Skokie - (12)
White Bear Yatch - (
Beverly CC - (

I'd say some of the biggest modern winners are Sebonack and Ballyneal. Sebonack moved up 7 spots, but they were real big ones: from 14 to 7. Ballyneal jumped 5 big spots: 13 to 8.

Along the same lines, a big modern loser was Kinloch. It fell from 7th to 12. Wolf Run also took a long fall, from 24 to 37.

On the classic side, Pebble fell from 4th to 7. Otherwise, things stayed mostly the same. As I would expect from year to year.

« **Reply #79 on:** March 12, 2009, 03:36:12 AM »

In regards to Greywalls : BOUT TIME!!!!

As far as the debate goes on this discussion board, lets not forget that this is the collaboration of people across the country / world; as thorough as this list and others like it might seem, it will never resemble "A PERFECT TOP 100." It's based on combined opinions to generate a consensus. I think maybe GCA should release it's own top 100 list based on our votes (has this ever been mentioned / considered

)

It does make for great a discussion, and is always a highlight on this website, as are nearly all the major publications ratings are. There are inevitably going to be perceived flaws (again these flaws are based on opinion) and thats fine. We must admit, there are several rankings that are directly inline with GCA'S plight; Crystal Downs ahead of Augusta National... (and agian how hard is that to judge since a very small majority of raters will ever play both of these courses let alone both of them).

Matt,

Architect bias amongst the rankings? Obviously this is going to happen. Can you imagine the GCA top 100? People are going to form opinions over time, I mean are there or are there not certain architects that you prefer? I get your point and in no way disagree with you, but as far as the "mass" of people / raters are concerned, inevitably they are going to form an opinion about someones work. How many times have you heard an average joe tell you, "oh well it's a donald ross course," when half (or more) of the time even if he did in fact design the course, his golf course is all but gone?

Sorry for the rant, ive gone ahead again and had a few Jameson's....you know that Irish Ginger Ale.

Nev

« **Reply #80 on:** March 12, 2009, 06:46:23 AM »

Anyone have a quick list of what dropped off from both?

Dave is correct...Kingsley is THAT good...it's Top 10 modern in my book, but then again, so is Boston GC.

Re: Dunes Club...I've yet to play it, but the pictures posted here last year made it look extremely tight and tree-laden.

VERY surprised to see LACC ahead of Riviera...that's a real head scratcher, but perhaps the Fazio group have been tinkering again.

Nice to see both Pebble and ANGC at more realistic levels, as well.

« **Reply #81 on:** March 12, 2009, 07:10:12 AM »

Delete

« **Reply #82 on:** March 12, 2009, 07:12:23 AM »

Quote from: DSchmidt on March 11, 2009, 11:17:34 PM

If Dunes Club is #24, maybe I should build a 4 hole course so it can make the Top 10. The love-fest for this course just because it's a 9 holer is way over the top. Anybody who has ever played Ivanhoe has played every hole at Dunes Club sans the out-of-play sandy areas....it's a darn good course, but not a great course and certainly not #24...no offense.
good.

Perfectly put. I think 9 hole courses should not be allowed and definatly not at #24.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

« **Reply #83 on:** March 12, 2009, 08:05:33 AM »

Quote from: Anthony_Nysse on March 12, 2009, 07:12:23 AM

Quote from: DSchmidt on March 11, 2009, 11:17:34 PM
If Dunes Club is #24, maybe I should build a 4 hole course so it can make the Top 10. The love-fest for this course just because it's a 9 holer is way over the top. Anybody who has ever played Ivanhoe has played every hole at Dunes Club sans the out-of-play sandy areas....it's a darn good course, but not a great course and certainly not #24...no offense.
good.

Perfectly put. I think 9 hole courses should not be allowed and definatly not at #24.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony,

Just curious if you've played Dunes Club and if so how long ago? Also, why discount a course because it's 9 holes?

Ken

« **Reply #84 on:** March 12, 2009, 08:06:18 AM »

Three architects/teams--C & C, Doak, and Dye--are now responsible for the top 9 courses built since 1960. Very interesting.

« **Reply #85 on:** March 12, 2009, 08:09:01 AM »

Am I the only one that is tired of lists?

Anthony

« **Reply #86 on:** March 12, 2009, 08:26:59 AM »

Quote from: Anthony Gray on March 12, 2009, 08:09:01 AM

Am I the only one that is tired of lists?

Anthony

Instead of complaining, do something about it. Why not start a list of people that are tired of lists?

« **Reply #87 on:** March 12, 2009, 09:12:01 AM »

Quote from: Joe Hancock on March 12, 2009, 08:26:59 AM

Quote from: Anthony Gray on March 12, 2009, 08:09:01 AM

Am I the only one that is tired of lists?

Anthony

Instead of complaining, do something about it. Why not start a list of people that are tired of lists?

or top 10 worst lists

« **Reply #88 on:** March 12, 2009, 09:17:51 AM »

Quote from: Ken Fry on March 12, 2009, 08:05:33 AM

Quote from: Anthony_Nysse on March 12, 2009, 07:12:23 AM
Quote from: DSchmidt on March 11, 2009, 11:17:34 PM
If Dunes Club is #24, maybe I should build a 4 hole course so it can make the Top 10. The love-fest for this course just because it's a 9 holer is way over the top. Anybody who has ever played Ivanhoe has played every hole at Dunes Club sans the out-of-play sandy areas....it's a darn good course, but not a great course and certainly not #24...no offense.
good.

Perfectly put. I think 9 hole courses should not be allowed and definatly not at #24.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony,

Just curious if you've played Dunes Club and if so how long ago? Also, why discount a course because it's 9 holes?

Ken

Ken,
I get asked this everytime I post something about The Dunes only being 9 holes. I'm even a Golfweek rater, myself. I have not PLAYED The Dunes, but I've been on and walked the property. I don't think that it's fair to the other 99 courses that a course is rated on 9 holes. What is Pebble was only 9 holes-#4-10, #17 & #18. It would be the greatest golf course in the world, but in it's current state, there are 9 other holes to rate at Pebble that are not quite as good as those previously mentioned. I do not think that a 9 hole course shold be included in the list.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

« **Reply #89 on:** March 12, 2009, 09:22:36 AM »

Quote from: Carl Nichols on March 12, 2009, 09:12:01 AM

Quote from: Joe Hancock on March 12, 2009, 08:26:59 AM
Quote from: Anthony Gray on March 12, 2009, 08:09:01 AM

Am I the only one that is tired of lists?

Anthony

Instead of complaining, do something about it. Why not start a list of people that are tired of lists?

or top 10 worst lists

  Carl,

  Great suggestion. Like the top ten worst opening holes...top ten worst bunkers... top ten worst courses in the top 500...top ten worst major venues..top ten worst finishing holes..top ten worst programs on the golf channel... top ten worst greens... top ten worst clubhouses..top ten worst golf inventions... top ten worst golf personalities... top ten worst GCA.com threads...

  Anthony

« **Reply #90 on:** March 12, 2009, 09:35:40 AM »

Quote from: Anthony_Nysse on March 12, 2009, 09:17:51 AM

Quote from: Ken Fry on March 12, 2009, 08:05:33 AM
Quote from: Anthony_Nysse on March 12, 2009, 07:12:23 AM
Quote from: DSchmidt on March 11, 2009, 11:17:34 PM
If Dunes Club is #24, maybe I should build a 4 hole course so it can make the Top 10. The love-fest for this course just because it's a 9 holer is way over the top. Anybody who has ever played Ivanhoe has played every hole at Dunes Club sans the out-of-play sandy areas....it's a darn good course, but not a great course and certainly not #24...no offense.
good.

Perfectly put. I think 9 hole courses should not be allowed and definatly not at #24.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony,

Just curious if you've played Dunes Club and if so how long ago? Also, why discount a course because it's 9 holes?

Ken

Ken,
I get asked this everytime I post something about The Dunes only being 9 holes. I'm even a Golfweek rater, myself. I have not PLAYED The Dunes, but I've been on and walked the property. I don't think that it's fair to the other 99 courses that a course is rated on 9 holes. What is Pebble was only 9 holes-#4-10, #17 & #18. It would be the greatest golf course in the world, but in it's current state, there are 9 other holes to rate at Pebble that are not quite as good as those previously mentioned. I do not think that a 9 hole course shold be included in the list.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Is that ranking really for Mike Keiser's nine holer? I guess I just assumed it was for Dunes Golf and Beach Club - RTJ in Myrtle Beach...

Keith.

Edit: I checked out the Golfweek website and saw that it is the one in Michigan.

« **Reply #91 on:** March 12, 2009, 10:10:06 AM »

It doesn't bother me to include 9 hole courses in this type of a rating--but #24 is still way too high for the Dunes Club. Its a great place and perhaps deserving of a spot on the list, but not the top 50.

One can always nitpick these types of things, but I'm disappointed to see two of my favorites fall significantly--Wolf Run and Black Mesa. IMO they were underrated to begin with, more significantly now.

I'd switch Whistling Straits and The Golf Club when comparing Pete Dye's finest. Not sure Golf Club would be #3 overall, but its definitely belongs in that top group.

Where is The Alotian Club? Not enough ballots? Its easily top 20 on the modern list, maybe top 10.

Rob,
Personally I do think Muirfield Village belongs in the top 20--probably borderline for the top 10 having only played some of the other candidates.

« **Reply #92 on:** March 12, 2009, 10:31:46 AM »

Whereas I lose to George in that Oakmont surpasses Pebble... I can live with that because... again....

WE'RE NO. 1! WE'RE NO. 1! WE'RE NO. 1!

Pine Valley lovers and other east coast provincials, read it and freakin' weep. Cypress Point, king of the land!

To me these ranking results remain pretty funny, all magazines. It's just sad how seriously they do get taken.

I do have one question... MPCC Shore so oh very high, and Dunes not listed at all? You GW boys sure are missing a great course there.

TH

ps to Sean - no clue when GD rankings come out. But look for LOTS of wailing and gnashing of teeth on here when they do!

« **Reply #93 on:** March 12, 2009, 10:36:02 AM »

Tom,

Is MPCC Dunes a modern or classic?

One thing you and I agree on is that is is a heck of course.

« **Reply #94 on:** March 12, 2009, 10:47:06 AM »

Quote from: Craig Edgmand on March 12, 2009, 10:36:02 AM

Tom,

Is MPCC Dunes a modern or classic?

One thing you and I agree on is that is is a heck of course.

Craig - beats the hell out of me! The whole modern/classic thing remains beyond my comprehension. See my first post in this thread.

« **Reply #95 on:** March 12, 2009, 10:48:44 AM »

Tom,

If MPCC Dunes is considered a modern, then there is no way it doesn't belong in the top 100. I haven't played the new Shore course so I can't debate the relative merits.

« **Reply #96 on:** March 12, 2009, 10:53:30 AM »

Quote from: DSchmidt on March 12, 2009, 10:49:25 AM

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on March 12, 2009, 10:47:06 AM
See my first post in this thread.

and last year's thread...and the year before that...and the year befor that...and the year before that, etc., in the annual all-in-good-fun rigor mortis horsebeating by Mr. Huckaby...

Oh hell yes, fully agreed.

However, he without sin ought to cast the first stone.

cheater line... reverse Jans... need I go on?

« **Reply #97 on:** March 12, 2009, 10:54:06 AM »

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on March 12, 2009, 10:31:46 AM

Whereas I lose to George in that Oakmont surpasses Pebble... I can live with that because... again....

WE'RE NO. 1! WE'RE NO. 1! WE'RE NO. 1!

Pine Valley lovers and other east coast provincials, read it and freakin' weep. Cypress Point, king of the land!

To me these ranking results remain pretty funny, all magazines. It's just sad how seriously they do get taken.

I do have one question... MPCC Shore so oh very high, and Dunes not listed at all? You GW boys sure are missing a great course there.

TH

ps to Sean - no clue when GD rankings come out. But look for LOTS of wailing and gnashing of teeth on here when they do!

It would be interesting to see of those who have played both on here, how many think CPC is a better golf course. Not favorite, or more enjoyable, but better. Like you, favorite and more enjoyable are more important to me on where I would rather play, but acknowledging better is a different story. I think GW likes to be contrarian, just like you

« **Reply #98 on:** March 12, 2009, 10:57:10 AM »

Sean: perhaps you need to explain what you mean by this:

Not favorite, or more enjoyable, but better. Like you, favorite and more enjoyable is more important to me on where I would rather play, but acknowledging better is a different story.

I do not understand how better is a different story than favorite or more enjoyable. What are you measuring? Architectural brilliance? I had no idea you were in the business... when can I play my first Leary course?

« **Reply #99 on:** March 12, 2009, 10:59:24 AM »

Huck...
I know you must be jesting re..Roma v Arsenal and the level of skill....unless you are like Wenger and believe that such a margin between the two in the premiership is all based on good fortune

Once again SAF is winning the battle with his marvelous integration of youth and experience...he never fails to amaze me at just what a master tactician he is.
That been said...still rather watch Arsenal than Chelsea or Liverpool!

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