[Tim Bert]

Hopefully you don't have me lumped in the dissing Bandon Dunes category. I love the course!  My comments were more directed as a compliment to Kingsley.

As for OFCC South does that now count as modern?  I got a walking tour last summer and really liked what I saw.

[PCCraig]

As for the Dunes Club, I'm torn.  I'm a member and I think the place is just terrific, but it is ONLY 9 holes.  And, contrary to Pat Craig's opinion, no matter where you put the tee in the ground, it's still only 9 holes, so it's tough to fairly compare it to the courses that have 18 holes.  On the other hand, there is no comparison if you're looking at other 9 hole layouts, so maybe it is fair to put it in with the rest of the courses.  As for the tree issue brought up by a couple observers, I will say that it LOOKS like it is "over-treed" but it doesn't (with one very notable exception) PLAY that way.  To me it looks just as over-treed as Pine Valley does and I don't know how many people hereabouts would go on a tree cutting extravaganza at Pine Valley.  There have been a number of offending trees cut down at the Dunes in the past couple years, but there is still (in my opinion) a major issue on the 8th hole that needs to be addressed.  Mr. Keiser disagrees and he's Mr. Keiser, so he wins!

Terry-

Putting aside the actual number ranking of #24. Are you saying that you would rather play all 199 courses on the two lists before the Dunes Club?

Uh, duh, no I'm not, but I am saying that there is a legitimate question of whether it's "fair" to compare a nine hole course to an 18 hole course, in terms of rating them.  It surely is fair to compare them in your own mind and I had to do that when I decided whether to join Lost Dunes or the Dunes Club.  Lost Dunes is great, has unbelievable greens, a great design and an terrific club house.  The Dunes has nine unbelievable holes, with great greens and an ambiance that is unmatched in my experience hereabouts.  Despite the fact that there's no practice facility to speak of and one of the country's smallest clubhouses, I prefer the Dunes.  I don't know if it is "right" however, to rate it alongside Lost Dunes because of the 18 hole issue.

Also, to follow up on Schmidt's point, it is unbelievable to me that Butler National isn't on the list of top moderns.  I would rate it fairly highly.

Terry, I understand your points. However I'm not sure I understand how it isn't "fair" for the Dunes Club. They built (as you said) 9 great holes, so great that you would rather join there than Lost Dunes. I'm not sure how it is "unfair" that you could or would assume that somehow, given the land, they would of screwed it up on another nine holes. (Is that the assumption as to why it is unfair...I'm just asking)?

If you ask me, I would think it would be a disadvantage to the Dunes that it is 9 holes, and that the ranking speaks for the overall quality of the course.

[Garland Bayley]

If you would consider my earlier suggestion of also publishing top 100 nines, you would realize that the Dunes probably could not stay at 24 in such a list. There are 23 courses rated higher. It is impossible for both of their nines to be rated lower than the Dunes, or they could not end up higher as they are. Therefore, at least one nine from those courses is better than the Dunes. I don't think it unreasonable to assume that at least half of those have both nines better than the Dunes. This would push the Dunes to 36th on the list. Since 36th is all the better it could do on a list comparing nines, how a history major can argue it belongs at 24th on a list of eighteens is beyond me.

[Garland Bayley]

BTW, I know this little private three hole couse where each hole averages out better than each of the holes on the Dunes. I think if Golf Week did the math they would have to put it about 15th on their list.

[PCCraig]

Edit.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

The 6th hole is the best par-3 in the entire great lakes area. Hands down.

Better than any in Chicago?  Better than the par 3s at Crystal Downs?  I find that opinion hard to believe.

[George Freeman]

If you would consider my earlier suggestion of also publishing top 100 nines, you would realize that the Dunes probably could not stay at 24 in such a list. There are 23 courses rated higher. It is impossible for both of their nines to be rated lower than the Dunes, or they could not end up higher as they are. Therefore, at least one nine from those courses is better than the Dunes. I don't think it unreasonable to assume that at least half of those have both nines better than the Dunes. This would push the Dunes to 36th on the list. Since 36th is all the better it could do on a list comparing nines, how a history major can argue it belongs at 24th on a list of eighteens is beyond me.

Garland, I understand your point and agree with it.  If you split every course in the country into two 9 hole courses, and individually "rated" each one, I would bet Dunes Club would not stay #24 in the top 200 9 hole courses.

disclaimer:  This is all opinion, I have never played the Dunes Club however have heard nothing but excellent things about it.    

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, I understand your point and agree with it.  If you split every course in the country into two 9 hole courses, and individually "rated" each one, I would bet Dunes Club would not stay #24 in the top 200 9 hole courses.

disclaimer:  This is all opinion, I have never played the Dunes Club however have heard nothing but excellent things about it.   

That would be a pretty safe bet since I have already proven that the absolute best it could be is #24, that it is highly probable that it would be 36 or higher. And, I haven't even mentioned the multitude of 18 hole courses ranked lower than 24 that have one nine better than the nine at the Dunes, but suffered a lower ranking, because the other nine couldn't hold it up.

You know it's having that second nine that is an absolute killer. Those courses ranked lower should just discard the other nine and viola instantly they are better than the Dunes.

[PCCraig]

Edit.

[PCCraig]

.

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

The "Edit" feature is fairly convenient, but really disrupts the flow of conversation....

I'm not sure what the lesson is.....

Joe

[Kalen Braley]

I don't see why a 9 holer can't be included on a list like this.  While I know very little about Dunes Club if its a nice coures I don't see a problem with that.

[Brad Tufts]

Overall, Yeamans Hall does not have any clear weak holes like I have found at other top rated courses, including Garden City (5, 12), The Ocean Course (1, 15), The Country Club (1), or Oak Hill East (5, 6, 15).  Holes like 1, 3, 6, 14, 17, and 18 are highly original and stand up to holes anywhere in American Golf.  The course is maintained exactly as a golf course should be: firm, fast, and not over-manicured.  I am very pleased to see Yeamans Hall where it is on the Golfweek list.

I wouldn't call #1 at The Country Club weak.  It's a dogleg at 450 where one cannot cut the corner.  It's actually possibly the only true long-iron hole at TCC.  I'd call 10 and 12 weak, which is why they remove them from the composite.

[Garland Bayley]

I don't see why a 9 holer can't be included on a list like this.  While I know very little about Dunes Club if its a nice coures I don't see a problem with that.

It's kinda like saying given his prodiguous basketball skills Jerry West is clearly the 24th best NBA center of all time.
 

[Mike_Cirba]

Dave,

You've just passed me in number of name-changes on GCA.   

I need a good rap, hip-hop name and it's tough to derive one from my Slovak roots...

I'm thinking of pulling a Joaquin Phoenix move here and causing lots of confusion.  How does one virtually convey that they've grown a long, scruffy beard and now speak in unintelligible grumbles? 

[Carl Nichols]

  Am I the only one that is tired of lists?

  Anthony

Instead of complaining, do something about it. Why not start a list of people that are tired of lists?

 

or top 10 worst lists

  Carl,

  Great suggestion. Like the top ten worst opening holes...top ten worst bunkers... top ten worst courses in the top 500...top ten worst major venues..top ten worst finishing holes..top ten worst programs on the golf channel... top ten worst greens... top ten worst clubhouses..top ten worst golf inventions... top ten worst golf personalities... top ten worst GCA.com threads...

  Anthony

Anthony:
I meant a top 10 list of the worst lists out there.  E.g., Golf Digest's Best Golfers in Washington is a pretty bad list, and might be in the top 10 of the worst lists.   

[Brian_Sleeman]

I need a good rap, hip-hop name and it's tough to derive one from my Slovak roots...

You could borrow from the Flight of the Conchords and go with either Hiphopopotamus or Rhymnoceros...

[Jon Heise]

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE POST THE LIST!

Also, good to see Greywalls in the top 100 finally.  Well deserved!

NICE!  'Bout time!  Too low!

[PCCraig]

Overall, Yeamans Hall does not have any clear weak holes like I have found at other top rated courses, including Garden City (5, 12), The Ocean Course (1, 15), The Country Club (1), or Oak Hill East (5, 6, 15).  Holes like 1, 3, 6, 14, 17, and 18 are highly original and stand up to holes anywhere in American Golf.  The course is maintained exactly as a golf course should be: firm, fast, and not over-manicured.  I am very pleased to see Yeamans Hall where it is on the Golfweek list.

I wouldn't call #1 at The Country Club weak.  It's a dogleg at 450 where one cannot cut the corner.  It's actually possibly the only true long-iron hole at TCC.  I'd call 10 and 12 weak, which is why they remove them from the composite.

While I wouldn't call the #1 at TCC weak...it's not the sexiest hole on the course as it plays dead flat for most of it. However it really is a pretty tough opening hole, as to cut the dogleg over the bunkers you need to hit a hard drive that flirts with the OB.

Interesting was a couple summers ago there was a huge lack of rain and TCC was playing with almost no rough and fast and firm. The old "spectator" hill (from the days that the 1st and 18th were a horse racing track) below the shooting range there on the right side of the hole became a great strategic option for most players...instead of going anywhere near the OB they would bounce their tee balls off and down the hill. However this does leave a tougher approach to the green which actually falls away to the right side.

As for #10 and #12...I like #10 as a member hole and even for better players it can be really fun to try to hit a driver at the green (which is a really cool green complex in itself). While #12 is easy, it is a really pretty hole and even Jack called it his favorite hole on the entire complex.

[Adam Clayman]

Mike. I'm partial to the Etrade baby's Shankopotomous.

[Greg Tallman]

What? No half built courses make this list?

[Mike_Cirba]

Brian,

"Flight" is the funniest thing on television since "Curb Your Enthusiasm".

Thanks for the suggestion!

[Matt_Ward]

There's no doubt that certain courses should be rated in a top 100 modern but when I see certain course at certain positions within that grouping I just shake my head.

Bandon Dunes (original 18) and the Straits Course at WS are both solid layouts -- for me, they are not top 10 as they are listed now. Both have a range of solid holes but they also have enough shortcomings that would keep them from such a high level. For the Straits to be listed as Dye's ultimate design is in clear error, in my mind. The Golf Club is likely the far better choice.

Shadow Creek and Muirfield Village also are in the same boat for me. SC is about the desire to overcome the demands of building a site in such a demanding environment. It is unique for THAT reason -- the actual holes / layout are far less in my mind. Muirfield Village is a wonderful layout by Nicklaus -- the Bear has done better but no doubt the publicity from the annual tournament does help matters here. I would have both courses far lower than where they are listed now.

On the flip side - glad to see Bayonne GC mentioned. Although I am a fan of Paa-Ko Ridge in NM -- it's not 50 places better than BlacK Mesa by any reasonable definition.

Links of ND gets mentioned for one chief reason -- it's utter isolation.

Seven Canyons gets mentioned because of the spectacular off-site scenery -- Weiskopf has done better elsewhere -- see Silverleaf in Scottsdale as just one example -- Snake River in WY is another one that may be his finest.

Trump National is a fine layout but Kidd's effort at Tetherow deserves more attention than the NJ layout. Ditto Rock Creek for Doak although it may not listed because not enough people have rated it thus far.

Sanctuary is a fine layout but it's tied to how it was built. For pure fun and design merit for 18 holes one should play a more recent Engh layout in the likes of Four Mile Ranch in Canon City, CO.

Congrats to Greywalls for being selected. About time.

One parting shot -- Whisper Rock Upper is mentioned but the Lower is not. Puzzling indeed ! Quintero is a fine layout by Rees Jones but his work at Olde Kinderhook deserves to be there if anything from his design portfolio is included.

Clearly, the modern listing is a lovefest for devotees of C&C.

[Tom Huckaby]

Yes but Matt, not only do you get a vote, one has to believe you have serious pull amongst your brethren.

So what the heck went wrong?

 

[Doug Sobieski]

There's no doubt that certain courses should be rated in a top 100 modern but when I see certain course at certain positions within that grouping I just shake my head.

Bandon Dunes (original 18) and the Straits Course at WS are both solid layouts -- for me, they are not top 10 as they are listed now. Both have a range of solid holes but they also have enough shortcomings that would keep them from such a high level. For the Straits to be listed as Dye's ultimate design is in clear error, in my mind. The Golf Club is likely the far better choice.
 

100% agreed with the above statement. Another head scratcher for me is Colorado Golf Club at #23. I attribute it to the C & C Love Fest you described. It's a good golf course with some really good holes, BUT....... To me there weren't enough holes where I would love to run right back to the tee for another go. Certainly a good handful, but not enough to convince me it should be that high.

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