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Peter Pallotta

Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2009, 06:37:55 PM »
Well thank you, Lyne. That's very nice of you to say. But, see below:

Dan - I've been thinking about your suggested edit on the way home. You must not have thought the sentence as 'economical' as I did. But here's my reasoning on why it is, and why it shouldn't be changed.  Updike takes 34 words to evoke and share a wonderfully rich image -an experience even -- of one golfer's mental and psychological landscape. Now, if I were to try to do/write the same thing, bright phrases like 'silent inward prayers' and 'unstable visualizations' would never occur to me, and so without Updike's talent I'd probably take 150 words to try to explain myself and evoke the same feelings that he does. And say that I actually did it pretty well - say that, after the end of those 150 words, you felt like I did indeed give you a sense of what golf is like.  And say you were my editor - well, what choice would you have with my 150 words? You'd either have to accept them -- with a few trims here and there -- esentially as is, recognizing that this evocation is hard to pull off but that I managed to do it albeit with a lot of words; or you'd have to scrap the whole paragraph as just not worth the space.  If you chose the former, you get a pale imitation of Updike's sentence that still used up at least 125 words instead of Updike's 34.  Which is why that sentence is (relatively) economical and the best it could (possibly) be.

Actually, I think this very post proves my point. If he were here, Mr. Updike could've said the same thing in a quarter of the words...and you'd still be awake at the end !!

And in that sense is the best architecture "economical" (hee hee)

Peter
Sorry for the ramble. Was thinking about this all the way home

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2009, 09:36:07 PM »
All this literary mumbo jumbo is just all too much for my simpletonian mind. Perhaps I am, because I lack prose, intolerant.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2009, 10:44:33 PM »
Nice one Dan K.

Man I've been wanting to bring this up for a long time. I don't think I've laughed so hard in the last 3 years as when I read Mark Twain's literary criticism of James Fenimore Cooper's writing as told in Cooper's Prose Style in "Letters from the Earth".

Dan PLEASE tell me you've read this!

I'll try to post Twain's edits here soon.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2009, 11:03:22 PM »
Cooper's text:

Notwithstanding the swiftness of their flight, one of the Indians had found an opportunity to strike a straggling fawn with an arrow, and had borne the more preferable fragments of the victim, patiently on his shoulders, to the stopping-place. Without any aid from the science of cookery, he was immediately employed, in common with his fellows, in gorging himself with this digestible sustenance. Magua alone sat apart, without participating in the revolting meal, and apparently buried in the deepest thought.



Twain's edit:

During the flight one of the Indians had killed a fawn and he brought it into camp. He and the others ate the meat raw.  Magua sat apart, without participating in the revolting meal, and apparently buried in the deepest thought.




Cooper's Text 2:

In a minute he was once more fastened to the tree, a helpless object of any insult or wrong that might be offered. So eagerly did every one now act, that nothing was said. The fire was immediately lighted in the pile, and the end of all was anxiously expected. It was not the intention of the Hurons absolutely to destroy the life of their victim by means of fire. They designed merely to put his physical fortitude to the severest proofs it could endure, short of that extremity. In the end, they fully intended to carry his scalp into their village, but it was their wish first to break down his resolution, and to reduce him to the level of a complaining sufferer. With this view, the pile of brush and branches had been placed at a proper distance, one at which it was thought the heat would soon become intolerable, though it might not be immediately dangerous. As often happened, however, on these occasions, this distance had been miscalculated, and the flames began to wave their forked tongues in a proximity to the face of the victim that would have proved fatal in another instant had not Hetty rushed through the crowd, armed with a stick, and scattered the blazing pile in a dozen directions. More than one hand was raised to strike the presumptuous intruder to the earth; but the chiefs prevented the blows by reminding their irritated followers of the state of her mind. Hetty, herself, was insensible to the risk she ran; but, as soon as she had performed this bold act, she stood looking about her in frowning resentment, as if to rebuke the crowd of attentive savages for their cruelty.

"God bless you, dearest sister, for that brave and ready act," murmured Judith, herself unnerved so much as to be incapable of exertion; "Heaven itself has sent you on its holy errand."



Twain's Edit:

In a minute he was once more fastened to the tree. The fire was immediately lighted. It was not the intention of the Hurons to destroy Deerslayer’s life by fire; they designed merely to put his fortitude to the severest proofs it could endure short of that extremity. In the end, they fully intended to take his life, but it was their wish first to break down his resolution and reduce him to a complaining sufferer. With this view the pile of brush had been placed at a distance at which it was thought the heat would soon become intolerable, without being immediately dangerous. But this distance had been miscalculated; the fire was so close to the victim that he would have been fatally burned in another instant if Hetty had not rushed through the crowd and scattered the brands with a stick.  More than one Indian raised his hand to strike her down, but the chiefs saved her by reminding them of the state of her mind. Hetty herself was insensible to the risk she ran; she stood looking about her in frowning resentment, as if to rebuke the savages for their cruelty.

"God bless you, dear!" cried Judith, "for that brave and ready act. Heaven itself has sent you on its holy errand, and you shall have a chromo."


That last word was a nod to another section of the essay.


Link to the whole article: http://www.llumina.com/mark_twain_on_cooper.htm

That little baby kept me from having to type all of this out.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 11:06:27 PM by Charlie Goerges »
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2009, 11:09:52 PM »
My swing crumbles under the caddie's scrutiny.

Seven.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2009, 11:11:21 PM »
My swing crumbles under the caddie's scrutiny.

Seven.

Brilliant!
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2009, 11:13:14 PM »
My swing crumbles under scrutiny.

Better.  Five.

Name that tune for writers.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2009, 07:49:58 AM »
My swing crumbles.

Rich Goodale

Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2009, 08:19:50 AM »
Swing?

TEPaul

Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2009, 09:01:26 AM »
"And in that sense is the best architecture "economical" (hee hee)"

PeterP:

I think one could probably make a pretty good case for that while very much considering what-all should go into the definition or goal of "economical." Would that include something like cost of upkeep too? ;)

But by those who've been my mentors in golf architecture, it seems like one of their strongest suggestions has been if you can somehow manage to get a lot of good strategic concept that really works and gets used in play (perhaps loosely coigned as "multiple options") all revolving around one single interesting feature or just a very few you then have something pretty good that could also be called "economical" in the sense of an overall arrangement.

There are some well known architectural examples of that probably starting with the Road Hole bunker. Without that single little bunker where it is on that hole, I doubt the hole would completely fall apart conceptually or strategically, but that one little bunker just seems to be a sort of linchpin that holds together the entire strategic symphony that hole seems to produce.

In a real way, even if pretty small (economical?), it seems to be in that very spot a Max Behr might call "the line of instinct." ;)


« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 09:07:57 AM by TEPaul »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2009, 09:04:10 AM »
I can easily recall the first time one of my loops said she was nervous because of caring about what I thought of her game.

The concept was as foreign to me as the newer golfer who is was trying to beat the other players in the group, rather than the golf course.  
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2009, 09:34:23 AM »
Peter, please forgive my digression (though I recommend the link if you haven't already read it) I've been wanting to discuss that with someone for some time now.

At any rate, you're right that absolute economy of words is not always desirable. Sometimes one wants to evoke certain feelings in one's audience without being "heavy-handed" about it. In that sense more words (and more evocative words) can be more economical overall.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2009, 09:43:37 AM »
Updike was a +5 writer but a 15 hcp golfer.  Of course his game is "tenuous!"  Before we go to the next sentence we know that his caddie moment is going to be a "Can I get there with a 5 iron."  "Eventually..." sort of experience.  It is NOT an analogy to a dimwit trying to edit his writing, whether it be poetry, prose or dog food commercials.  Rather it is a complete leap from the actual situation (he's crap, his caddie knows it--THE END) to some sort of metaphorical leap of loser-bonding with the barefoot boy with cheek of tan.

Rich --

Either you're WAY smarter than I am, or you're full of crap.

Or, of course, both!

But, as the French Canadians say: Chacun a son gout -- eh?

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2009, 09:52:57 AM »
Well thank you, Lyne. That's very nice of you to say. But, see below:

Dan - I've been thinking about your suggested edit on the way home. You must not have thought the sentence as 'economical' as I did. But here's my reasoning on why it is, and why it shouldn't be changed.  Updike takes 34 words to evoke and share a wonderfully rich image -an experience even -- of one golfer's mental and psychological landscape. Now, if I were to try to do/write the same thing, bright phrases like 'silent inward prayers' and 'unstable visualizations' would never occur to me, and so without Updike's talent I'd probably take 150 words to try to explain myself and evoke the same feelings that he does. And say that I actually did it pretty well - say that, after the end of those 150 words, you felt like I did indeed give you a sense of what golf is like.  And say you were my editor - well, what choice would you have with my 150 words? You'd either have to accept them -- with a few trims here and there -- esentially as is, recognizing that this evocation is hard to pull off but that I managed to do it albeit with a lot of words; or you'd have to scrap the whole paragraph as just not worth the space.  If you chose the former, you get a pale imitation of Updike's sentence that still used up at least 125 words instead of Updike's 34.  Which is why that sentence is (relatively) economical and the best it could (possibly) be.

Actually, I think this very post proves my point. If he were here, Mr. Updike could've said the same thing in a quarter of the words...and you'd still be awake at the end !!

And in that sense is the best architecture "economical" (hee hee)

Peter
Sorry for the ramble. Was thinking about this all the way home

Peter --

I'm perfectly willing to concede that Updike was a better writer than either of us!

But that doesn't mean he couldn't be improved, by trimming out his excess -- and for my money, "silent inward prayers" and "unstable visualizations" are nothing but excess. (Not to mention that I don't believe them, either. Do you think Updike really said *prayers*, aloud or silently, about his golf game? Do you think his visualizations were unstable? I don't. I don't believe he said prayers -- and I suspect that his visualizations were quite stable, albeit unhelpful.)

As I said: This is all "for my money." And your money's as good as mine.

Now I wish Updike were still alive, and could be induced to enter this discussion, because I'd love to hear his reaction to what we're saying.

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2009, 09:56:22 AM »
Cooper's text:

Notwithstanding the swiftness of their flight, one of the Indians had found an opportunity to strike a straggling fawn with an arrow, and had borne the more preferable fragments of the victim, patiently on his shoulders, to the stopping-place. Without any aid from the science of cookery, he was immediately employed, in common with his fellows, in gorging himself with this digestible sustenance. Magua alone sat apart, without participating in the revolting meal, and apparently buried in the deepest thought.



Twain's edit:

During the flight one of the Indians had killed a fawn and he brought it into camp. He and the others ate the meat raw.  Magua sat apart, without participating in the revolting meal, and apparently buried in the deepest thought.




Cooper's Text 2:

In a minute he was once more fastened to the tree, a helpless object of any insult or wrong that might be offered. So eagerly did every one now act, that nothing was said. The fire was immediately lighted in the pile, and the end of all was anxiously expected. It was not the intention of the Hurons absolutely to destroy the life of their victim by means of fire. They designed merely to put his physical fortitude to the severest proofs it could endure, short of that extremity. In the end, they fully intended to carry his scalp into their village, but it was their wish first to break down his resolution, and to reduce him to the level of a complaining sufferer. With this view, the pile of brush and branches had been placed at a proper distance, one at which it was thought the heat would soon become intolerable, though it might not be immediately dangerous. As often happened, however, on these occasions, this distance had been miscalculated, and the flames began to wave their forked tongues in a proximity to the face of the victim that would have proved fatal in another instant had not Hetty rushed through the crowd, armed with a stick, and scattered the blazing pile in a dozen directions. More than one hand was raised to strike the presumptuous intruder to the earth; but the chiefs prevented the blows by reminding their irritated followers of the state of her mind. Hetty, herself, was insensible to the risk she ran; but, as soon as she had performed this bold act, she stood looking about her in frowning resentment, as if to rebuke the crowd of attentive savages for their cruelty.

"God bless you, dearest sister, for that brave and ready act," murmured Judith, herself unnerved so much as to be incapable of exertion; "Heaven itself has sent you on its holy errand."



Twain's Edit:

In a minute he was once more fastened to the tree. The fire was immediately lighted. It was not the intention of the Hurons to destroy Deerslayer’s life by fire; they designed merely to put his fortitude to the severest proofs it could endure short of that extremity. In the end, they fully intended to take his life, but it was their wish first to break down his resolution and reduce him to a complaining sufferer. With this view the pile of brush had been placed at a distance at which it was thought the heat would soon become intolerable, without being immediately dangerous. But this distance had been miscalculated; the fire was so close to the victim that he would have been fatally burned in another instant if Hetty had not rushed through the crowd and scattered the brands with a stick.  More than one Indian raised his hand to strike her down, but the chiefs saved her by reminding them of the state of her mind. Hetty herself was insensible to the risk she ran; she stood looking about her in frowning resentment, as if to rebuke the savages for their cruelty.

"God bless you, dear!" cried Judith, "for that brave and ready act. Heaven itself has sent you on its holy errand, and you shall have a chromo."


That last word was a nod to another section of the essay.


Link to the whole article: http://www.llumina.com/mark_twain_on_cooper.htm

That little baby kept me from having to type all of this out.

Charlie --

Thanks.

Confession: I cannot force myself to read that second Cooper passage!

I get the idea, though, from the first one -- and thank you for recommending it to me. I hadn't seen it before.

For some strange reason, this reminded me of something I'm guessing you'd enjoy: "A Visit From St. Nicholas (In the Ernest Hemingway Manner," by James Thurber, at http://thenostalgialeague.com/olmag/st_nicholas.html.

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2009, 10:21:17 AM »
Thanks Dan, I did enjoy that. I've only gotten around to reading a couple of Hemingway short stories and those were in the distant past, but I instantly recognized the style.

Bear in mind that the funniest part of the Twain edits are not the edits themselves but his commentary in-between which was evidently given by him as part of a writer's workshop or class that he had given. Can you imagine being in a class with him as the lecturer?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

TEPaul

Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2009, 10:30:51 AM »
Adam:

Come on, how can the concept of a newer golfer, or any golfer for that matter, who concentrates on trying to beat his opponents rather than the golf course be so foreign to you?

I don't think the matter even revolves that much around the subject of golf or even golf course architecture. It's more a matter of just understanding other people and the fact that they really may see things quite differently than us or you or me.

The longer I stay on this website the more I realize just how truly black OR white or EITHER vs OR a rather large panoply of people see the same thing and the same subject! ;)

What's happening to "AND?"


"Golf and Golf Course Architecture are great big things and there really is room in them for everyone." (The Big World Theory). ;)

Rich Goodale

Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2009, 10:54:49 AM »
Rich --

Either you're WAY smarter than I am, or you're full of crap.

Or, of course, both!


I vote for neither (insert pensive emoticonhere).

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2009, 11:01:22 AM »
All this literary mumbo jumbo is just all too much for my simpletonian mind. Perhaps I am, because I lack prose, intolerant.

Joe --

Save that one for a Bad Pun contest!

I entered one of those contests last year.

Put in 10 entries, in fact -- figuring at least one of them would win.

No pun in 10 did.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2009, 11:05:04 AM »
All this literary mumbo jumbo is just all too much for my simpletonian mind. Perhaps I am, because I lack prose, intolerant.

Joe --

Save that one for a Bad Pun contest!

I entered one of those contests last year.

Put in 10 entries, in fact -- figuring at least one of them would win.

No pun in 10 did.

I suppose that makes you a no 10'n pundit.

This, like the beginnings of most of my writings, has gone from pad to verse.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2009, 11:09:22 AM »
This, like the beginnings of most of my writings, has gone from pad to verse.

Let's call this the Hancock Curse:
To start with pad, and end with verse.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2009, 12:19:58 PM »
Peter,

May I suggest that you pare down the title of this thread to "Good Writing"?  I can't help myself. 

In general, John Updike's quote in question is too precious for me, very self indulgent.  It may be a poetic description for the type of self-conscious nervousness I also experience during club tournament play, and I freely admit it.  However, in general when somebody is all bottled up like that, I point out that nobody cares about your golf game, only their own.

I would rather be succinct, describe the emotion in 3-7 words, grant the reader the luxury of personal interpretation, simultaneously allowing them to move onto the next written thought.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2009, 01:03:07 PM »
Maybe Updike was trying to portray self-indulgent, self-conscious, nervous golf by writing in a self-indulgent, self-conscious, nervous way. Sort of a literary onomatopoeia!
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2009, 01:14:43 PM »
I point out that nobody cares about your golf game, only their own.

'Tain't so, Mr. Kirk!

I care about the other guy's golf game.

Among numerous other benefits, it helps me care not too much about my own.

Dan
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 01:37:39 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Peter Pallotta

Re: Just Good Writing
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2009, 01:57:36 PM »
John -

you may be right, and certainly right according to your tastes.  But you have to admit that golfing can be a bit of a *precious* activity.  And, while I usually prefer a lessy fussy approach myself,  I think the overall *effect* that Updike manages to achieve is something special - e.g. yes, if a prayer is silent it is also probably inward, and vice versa, but the use of the repetition certainly captures and rings true to my own golfing psyche, which is a trembling and timourous thing.

Charlie -

I think you may be right too, though I'm guessing JU didn't have that consciously in mind.  But as I said to John, my own golfing psyche is forever timidly reaching for a foothold however tentative by which to transcend and transport itself to the higher grounds, where a wind blows cool on a fevered brain and where dappled bits of light camouflage the frailties
and fears. (Now see, that's just terrible writing!)

Peter